For example, Angel refuses to follow Twilight's plan; Twilight chooses Roden and Gigi; they give birth to Twilight and bring him(her?) the Seed. Nobody can beat them, because they're Gods. And Earth dies.
(I don't insist that I'm right here; I only say that there is such option. I suspect that Joss will leave it open to interpretation).
I will give you a better alternative, one that they know before that there is a seed in Sunnydale, and just go there and destroy it before any Twilight kitty or mouse chooses 2 persons to ascend.
One way or another, Twilight plan was NOT the best option available, Angel was manipulated and fooled like a 4 years old child that is afraid Santa won't be visiting this year if it's naughty.
No one really knew anything about the Seed. Spike found out through some of his demon sources. Twilight may not have been the best option in retrospect, but hindsight is 20/20. We don't know what exactly Angel saw that would convince him that this plan was the better outcome. We don't know how the IDW books will segue into the S8 storyline. We may see what Angel saw, or we may get hints of what Angel saw.
I have to reread season 8 from the beginning to the end. I just don't remember if anybody knew anything definitive about the Seed. I don't remember any mention of the Seed before #36.
Of course, it's very preposterous that nobody knew about the Seed until Spike has found out something about it through his sources - but it's no more preposterous than the introduction on the Scythe in season 7 or Acathla in season 2.
I don't know. Maybe. Most likely Whistler was another Twilight incarnation, after the dog, the flight attendant, the bird etc.
But, OTOH, Whistler could be just Whistler. And he could be telling the truth (again, I don't insist; we don't have information confirming or negating it). And if he was telling the truth, then Angel's actions *did* contribute to avoiding the apocalypse. At terrible price, but still.
It's interesting that the events in №34-38 created the impression that the Earth is destroyed. Do you remember the poll about the scale of destructions caused by space-frak and demons attacks? I voted "tens of millions", and I was sure that season 9 will be taking place in the post-apocalyptic world. Or in Normal-Again-world. Yet in #39 we find out that the Earth is mostly okay. At least the tourist business in Venice thrives as usual.
So, maybe, - just maybe - it really was the only way to save the Earth? To make Buffy and Angel Twilight's parents? Connor was the only person who could destroy Jasmine; similarly, Buffy is the only person who could destroy Twilight.
And, again, I repeat that it's just a theory. I don't insist that I'm right. I'm just checking the options.
So, Whistler could see all the possible futures, but he couldn't see their outcomes? And how did the army got the intelligence about the seed? How did Spike learn about the seed? How did Giles figured it out that breaking it was a solution?
I just don't believe it, the way i don't believe that Joss would want to give us a message that not trusting the people you love and going against them, torturing them, killing them, is a good choice one can make. This is what Angel did, believed strangers talking to him instead of listening and talking and comfiding ang trying to find a solution with his "family".
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Re: Season 8 - Last Gleaming Part 4: Issue 39 « Reply #462 on Dec 10, 2010, 4:57pm »
Whistler saw all the possible futures AND their outcomes. He told Angel that going down the Twilight path was the best. I doubt the army really knew about the Seed. They knew something was there, since Sunnydale had become a sort of hotspot for demonic activity. There were portals open all over. Spike learned about the Seed from the Fyarl demons. At least that's what he told us in #37. Other than Spike, Giles is probably the next most informed about the Seed. He had been looking for it all over Europe (it's the totem he had been looking for, the one that could kill a god). How he figured it out, we'll never know now, since he's dead. But a lot of solutions in the Buffyverse have been based on hunches. Did Buffy know for sure that jumping off the tower in "The Gift" would stop the apocalypse? Did she really know that Willow could tap into the essence of the Scythe to power all the girls? But the Seed issue is quite simple, in terms of logic. It's the source of all magic (supposedly). Breaking it means that magic is gone, then. Which means that whatever magical hold is on Angel would be broken, the dimensional gates would close, meaning that nothing else could get in. To a Big Picture Guy, that sounds great, since it would stop the world from ending. Whatever else happens after, it can't be worse than the world going kaplooey.
Whistler saw all the possible futures AND their outcomes. He told Angel that going down the Twilight path was the best. I doubt the army really knew about the Seed. They knew something was there, since Sunnydale had become a sort of hotspot for demonic activity. There were portals open all over. Spike learned about the Seed from the Fyarl demons. At least that's what he told us in #37. Other than Spike, Giles is probably the next most informed about the Seed. He had been looking for it all over Europe (it's the totem he had been looking for, the one that could kill a god). How he figured it out, we'll never know now, since he's dead. But a lot of solutions in the Buffyverse have been based on hunches. Did Buffy know for sure that jumping off the tower in "The Gift" would stop the apocalypse? Did she really know that Willow could tap into the essence of the Scythe to power all the girls? But the Seed issue is quite simple, in terms of logic. It's the source of all magic (supposedly). Breaking it means that magic is gone, then. Which means that whatever magical hold is on Angel would be broken, the dimensional gates would close, meaning that nothing else could get in. To a Big Picture Guy, that sounds great, since it would stop the world from ending. Whatever else happens after, it can't be worse than the world going kaplooey.
So, if Whistler knew about the outcome, why didn't he just say, "Hey, Angel, you know there is a seed in Sunnydale, tell Buffy to grab her scythe and go and break it, or else thousands of people will die including Giles and basically you will be hated if you do something like pretending to be a guy in a mask.
The reason that i asked about Spike's and Giles and army's information, wasn't because i didn't know, but to say that the seed was no secret. Besides, Whistler, if i remember correctly, i have to read again Riley's issue, was talking about a choice where Angel tortures Buffy but then they are together, right? Season 8 debunked their relationship, no way they can heal that.
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Re: Season 8 - Last Gleaming Part 4: Issue 39 « Reply #464 on Dec 10, 2010, 5:26pm »
If you read upthread, you'll see that not everyone thinks that Whistler was on the level this time around. He may or may not have known what the actual outcome was. Moot point. The point was to get Angel to do the Twilight gig. As I said, it's doubtful that the army knew exactly what was down there. It might be a logistics thing (hey, lots of portals opening here... something's here), or as we had previously seen, Spike's ship doesn't have good soundproofing. The General and the rest could just have easily heard stuff.
As for the Buffy/Angel relationship... that remains to be seen. Buffy has shown herself to be a very forgiving person. She forgave her friends for tearing her out of heaven. She forgave Giles for going behind her back. She forgave Faith for her past sins (until she wrongly arrived at the conclusion that Faith was plotting behind her back again). She forgave Spike for trying to rape her. There's a lot of forgiveness going on. Do I necessarily think she should or will forgive Angel? Not really. Depends on the reason.
And anyway... CBR's latest "Behind Buffy Season 8" is out HERE. And there's no need to ask Allie about the whole siring issue: he answers that here. And at least for now, I'll concede that AC and Dorotea were right about the whole siring issue.
So, if Whistler knew about the outcome, why didn't he just say, "Hey, Angel, you know there is a seed in Sunnydale, tell Buffy to grab her scythe and go and break it, or else thousands of people will die including Giles and basically you will be hated if you do something like pretending to be a guy in a mask.
Good points. Off the cuff I can only argue that Buffy and Willow used magic in their activities, so they could not agree to destroy the Seed. I have to think about it.
Re: Season 8 - Last Gleaming Part 4: Issue 39 « Reply #466 on Dec 10, 2010, 5:34pm »
I didn't say she won't forgive him, i talked about debunking Buffy's first love. What might never forgive though, is him not trusting her in the first place. Buffy always finds another way and doesn't listen to prophecies, but in her instinct. My guess? Spuffy is next, in season 9, giving their relationship an end as well, romantically speaking always.
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Re: Season 8 - Last Gleaming Part 4: Issue 39 « Reply #468 on Dec 10, 2010, 6:03pm »
I think it would be cool if issue #40 is about Buffy trying to find Angel. While she's looking for him she meets up with several of the other characters and we get to see where things stand with them. She never does find Angel in this issue, and it's left completely ambiguous whether she's looking for him to talk to him, or to stake him.
Once again, that's how I'd write it, so it's not how Joss will write it.
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Re: Season 8 - Last Gleaming Part 4: Issue 39 « Reply #470 on Dec 10, 2010, 8:49pm »
it could be the TpB i always tought about them being a trio... so... jasmine gone.... twilight gone... just one more apocalipse :D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D could it be????
it could be the TpB i always tought about them being a trio... so... jasmine gone.... twilight gone... just one more apocalipse :D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D could it be????
Re: Season 8 - Last Gleaming Part 4: Issue 39 « Reply #472 on Dec 10, 2010, 9:22pm »
Some thoughts:
1. So, anybody want to speculate issue 40 is the "wedding" that we see in Always Darkest? If so...what we might actually be getting is a Kill Bill Volume 1 homage...with Twilight as an uninvited guest. They did say there'd be more deaths. My speculation.
2. Some people will not be in issue 40, am I correct on this? Dawn, Spike, Faith and a vampire that Buffy will be chasing are in this issue. The very conspicuous absences include Angel, Xander and Willow. Care to speculate on this?
3. SA's curious wording about Buffy being in all the panels for issue 40 not relating to anybody or not relating to some people. What's up with that one?
My personal speculations:
1. Willow will eventually figure out how to bring back magic. Her revenge against Buffy for destroying her magic powers will be figuring out to get vampires and demons back in the Earth dimension. They exist in Fray's time. Something happens to let this happen and Willow is able to live for 200 years so she's involved somehow.
2. According to present day Willow in the Time of Your Life arc...she and all the wiccans have been played by someone far more powerful then herself. Ironically this person she's referring to is herself...200 years into the future. And this Future Dark Willow has no magic powers. But she has something. A weapon of enormous power that allows her to play Anakin Skywalker and wipe out the Slayer line. Remember, now that magic is gone...no more Slayers can get called. Which means the only way they can die is by violent death....not natural death. But somehow the vampires are able to return but Slayers will not be called when this happens. In my opinion this is Willow's revenge against Buffy.
3. I think Willow is crippled due to her falling from 50/60 feet and may be wheelchair bound.
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I think it would be cool if issue #40 is about Buffy trying to find Angel. While she's looking for him she meets up with several of the other characters and we get to see where things stand with them. She never does find Angel in this issue, and it's left completely ambiguous whether she's looking for him to talk to him, or to stake him.
Once again, that's how I'd write it, so it's not how Joss will write it.
2. Some people will not be in issue 40, am I correct on this? Dawn, Spike, Faith and a vampire that Buffy will be chasing are in this issue. The very conspicuous absences include Angel, Xander and Willow. Care to speculate on this?
We don't know that they will be absent, merely that Mr. Jeanty mentioned 2 people; Dawn and Spike. My guess is that at least Xander and Willow are in the issue, possibly Angel as well. If nothing else, why would Dawn be there and not Xander? Those two have been practically joined at the hip since issue 27.
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Re: Season 8 - Last Gleaming Part 4: Issue 39 « Reply #475 on Dec 11, 2010, 12:22am »
Scott and Georges said that Buffy would be on every page, but Scott said earlier that there would be no meeting between Buffy and Angel. So I'm thinking Angel won't be in it at all.
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Re: Season 8 - Last Gleaming Part 4: Issue 39 « Reply #478 on Dec 11, 2010, 11:53am »
I would like it a lot if it is indeed Angel whom Buffy hunts in issue #40 - and whom she never finds. Will be nice symmetry with the end of S2-beginning of S3 - when it was her who run away after killing him. If this time it is Angel who runs away to be alone and suffer silently after killing Giles - I would love it very very much. Masochistic much of me?
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