Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 197 Karma: 107
Gay guys in Buffyverse? « Thread Started on Dec 15, 2008, 11:20pm »
Willow and Tara, Willow and Kennedy, Buffy and Satsue. How come all the same-sex relationships involve women and no guys are getting together. I notice this in in the media too, I've seen more girl and girl relationships and not ones with two guys.
Re: Gay guys in Buffyverse? « Reply #1 on Dec 15, 2008, 11:22pm »
I've noticed this too. There are shows that have portrayed Guy-Guy relationsips, but i think this is a rare occurence, since people would probably rather sit down and watch some girl on girl action.
Re: Gay guys in Buffyverse? « Reply #2 on Dec 15, 2008, 11:40pm »
Well, there's Larry and Scott. And kinda Andrew too. But no reaöl relationships.
If Xander would have turned gay, and had two gay relationships too, it would seem like a lot of gay guys would be on Buffy, but no gay girls, and people would have wondered about that. So it's Willow's fault, so too speak.
And yeah, when Buffy & Satsu got together, a part of me though "For equalities sake, shouldn't there be someone gay guys having sex now?"
But I'm not bothered. We just happen to be following a few people who are likely to have lesbians around them, not fags.
Joined: Feb 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,174 Karma: 337
Re: Gay guys in Buffyverse? « Reply #3 on Dec 16, 2008, 5:38pm »
I think that our society is a bit more likely to accept a female same-sex relationship than a male one. It was still quite contraversial (and still can be) when Willow came out, and you will notice that it took a whole year for Willow and Tara to kiss onscreen . Even the Buffy and Satsu hook-up got a lot of press outside of the regular Buffy and comic book press circles. Personally, I don't know if B/S would have happended had Season 8 been on TV.
We still have very few prominent gay male characters on television, and when we do see them we rarely see a love scene or even kissing.
I could go on and on, but basically we still have a ways to go before the mainstream media gives equal time to people of all orientation, color, religion, etc.
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Re: Gay guys in Buffyverse? « Reply #4 on Dec 16, 2008, 9:36pm »
Personally, I think the Buffy/Satsu relationship may be taking the "interest in sexuality" a bit too far in one particular direction for the BtVS series. We weren't given any kind of indication that B. would ever engage in this kind of activity and the build-up to the climactic event was somewhat lacking taking into consideration the magnitude of what transpired. However, the immediate reaction of her friends and peers was appropriate, but the follow-up was neglectful and overlooked in the recent proceedings. You'd think this would have epic repercussions for not only her but Satsu, who is clearly the odd-woman-out.
The moment this media form becomes an explicit text used SOLELY as a means to critique the state of society will be the day Buffy will ceases to exist. It has enjoyed a lot of academic accolades for it's portrayal of a strong, feminine lead in a male dominated genre, as well as the prominant lesbian themes in Willow and Tara/Kennedy's relationships, but introducing a male homosexual tandum will likely be TOO much.
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Re: Gay guys in Buffyverse? « Reply #5 on Dec 17, 2008, 6:07am »
I'm personally hoping beyond hope that when we see Oz in Jane Espenson's arc, he'll be gay or bi. It would make Willow and Oz's relationship so sublimely ironic, and I can see Seth Green getting a kick out of it.
Male homosexuality is a point of contention with heterosexual teenage male viewers, who were a large part of Buffy's fanbase during the airing of the series (perhaps most of whom have waned). The whole idea was that while there were gay males in the Buffyverse, they were minor (Larry, Scott, Nostroyev) or it was only hinted at (to varying degrees) for comedy (Andrew, Lorne and Clem). On another level, Whedon himself is by no means homophobic - he has hinted at Spike and Angel as having had some sort of "intimate" sexual encounter in the past, and even compared them to Apollo and Midnighter in a Whedonesque post. Jane Espenson posted once in an interview that she writes for Giles and Ethan baring in mind an exotic college-years homoerotic backstory for them.
The other problem is most of the characters are female and the show's central theme is female empowerment, and lesbianism can be a beautiful metaphor for that. Willow and Tara's relationship was also very critically successful, and the lesbian community was very proud of it. So the fact that we have Willow, Tara, Kennedy, Satsu, unnamed Slayer decoy and a random fairy as lesbians and Buffy perhaps being bisexual is sort of part of a larger tapestry of themes concerning womanhood and female-female friendship.
that woukld be GAY lol but realy i agere with mentillaxe it would be
While I do have a sense of humor, and see the obvious pun there, please remember to be respectful to other members, especially when commenting on topics that usually fall into the "sensitive" category (including, but not exclusive to topics like religion and sexuality).
I'm personally hoping beyond hope that when we see Oz in Jane Espenson's arc, he'll be gay or bi. It would make Willow and Oz's relationship so sublimely ironic, and I can see Seth Green getting a kick out of it.
Male homosexuality is a point of contention with heterosexual teenage male viewers, who were a large part of Buffy's fanbase during the airing of the series (perhaps most of whom have waned). The whole idea was that while there were gay males in the Buffyverse, they were minor (Larry, Scott, Nostroyev) or it was only hinted at (to varying degrees) for comedy (Andrew, Lorne and Clem). On another level, Whedon himself is by no means homophobic - he has hinted at Spike and Angel as having had some sort of "intimate" sexual encounter in the past, and even compared them to Apollo and Midnighter in a Whedonesque post. Jane Espenson posted once in an interview that she writes for Giles and Ethan baring in mind an exotic college-years homoerotic backstory for them.
The other problem is most of the characters are female and the show's central theme is female empowerment, and lesbianism can be a beautiful metaphor for that. Willow and Tara's relationship was also very critically successful, and the lesbian community was very proud of it. So the fact that we have Willow, Tara, Kennedy, Satsu, unnamed Slayer decoy and a random fairy as lesbians and Buffy perhaps being bisexual is sort of part of a larger tapestry of themes concerning womanhood and female-female friendship.
So, yes, my point is please gay up Oz.
Great post. However, it's a tough sell. You risk ostracizing the male heterosexual demographic you referred to if the creators indulge this potential twist; especially with a character whose alter-ego--the werewolf--is so entrenched in the Alpha male ideology. It would be safer to free Andrew's character if there is a need to appease this demand.
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Re: Gay guys in Buffyverse? « Reply #11 on Dec 17, 2008, 4:32pm »
For what I have seen, in tv in general, there have been many more prominent gay male characters than females, so I don’t mind not having any in BtVS. Buffy is about powerful women, the male characters usually take a secondary role in the story (while the women save the world), so I think it has a lot more impact to have gay women than men. And I, as a gay guy myself, absolutely love and can relate to the lesbian characters in the story.
Re: Gay guys in Buffyverse? « Reply #12 on Dec 17, 2008, 5:37pm »
I think the only reason there are more same-sex female relationships is because Willow is gay. If Xander were the one to be gay, then there would be more same-sex male relationships. Fans are more likely to care about main characters relationships, so obviously there isn't going to be big storylines involving whoever Larry, Andrew or Scott are seeing. There are also minor characters who are straight that we never see in a relationship, such as Jonathan. And he had a bigger part in the show than Larry.
I'm personally hoping beyond hope that when we see Oz in Jane Espenson's arc, he'll be gay or bi. It would make Willow and Oz's relationship so sublimely ironic, and I can see Seth Green getting a kick out of it.
Male homosexuality is a point of contention with heterosexual teenage male viewers, who were a large part of Buffy's fanbase during the airing of the series (perhaps most of whom have waned). The whole idea was that while there were gay males in the Buffyverse, they were minor (Larry, Scott, Nostroyev) or it was only hinted at (to varying degrees) for comedy (Andrew, Lorne and Clem). On another level, Whedon himself is by no means homophobic - he has hinted at Spike and Angel as having had some sort of "intimate" sexual encounter in the past, and even compared them to Apollo and Midnighter in a Whedonesque post. Jane Espenson posted once in an interview that she writes for Giles and Ethan baring in mind an exotic college-years homoerotic backstory for them.
The other problem is most of the characters are female and the show's central theme is female empowerment, and lesbianism can be a beautiful metaphor for that. Willow and Tara's relationship was also very critically successful, and the lesbian community was very proud of it. So the fact that we have Willow, Tara, Kennedy, Satsu, unnamed Slayer decoy and a random fairy as lesbians and Buffy perhaps being bisexual is sort of part of a larger tapestry of themes concerning womanhood and female-female friendship.
So, yes, my point is please gay up Oz.
Great post. However, it's a tough sell. You risk ostracizing the male heterosexual demographic you referred to if the creators indulge this potential twist; especially with a character whose alter-ego--the werewolf--is so entrenched in the Alpha male ideology. It would be safer to free Andrew's character if there is a need to appease this demand.
The reason killing Tara was so controversial was that once you start representing minorities, and they start to empathise with those characters, it becomes important that you treat them properly (to those minorities).
Outing Andrew would be effective but Whedon would, after outing him, have the obligation to write Andrew in a positive light. Already, we have jokes about Andrew's unnamed, un-addressed weirdness (read: the encoded homosexuality) leading to questionable choices (such as sending out his 'best dressed' Slayers). Representation of some sort is better than nothing, and Andrew IS a positive role model (redemption, 3-dimensional, anti-gun speech in #2 etc.) but he doesn't subvert stereotypes of gay men the way Willow does of lesbian stereotypes.
Willow is a beautiful, sensual, feminine woman whose friends are mostly all straight. For like you said, a character like Oz, whose inner werewolf represents alpha masculinity, it would be an equal subversion. Of course, the unintended metaphor would be the werewolf as a metaphor for repressed homosexuality which wouldn't align well with the Veruca storyline. But it's an example of why a character like Oz should be outed before one like Andrew or Lorne.
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 197 Karma: 107
Re: Gay guys in Buffyverse? « Reply #16 on Dec 20, 2008, 12:37pm »
I get that Buffy is strongly about female empowerment, which I'm all for, go ladies!!! But then like i dont have cable or sataelite and I notice a lot in the media that gay guys are always portrayed in sterotypes. Buffy to me has also dealt with feeling different yet accepting who you are, and i think that there are guys out there like myself who are trying to figure out their sexuality and i think that the Buffy verse would do a good job of bringing a fresh perspective to gay guys. Whether it be Andrew or Oz, wouldn't it be nice to see one? What about empowerment to guys who feel like they cant just be "one of the guys" Xander kind of shows this although he might not be gay. Wouldn't it be cool to see how a gay guy would be portrayed in Buffy's world. They should take the most sterotypical mach guy like Riley and reveal that he's gay just to mix it up.
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Re: Gay guys in Buffyverse? « Reply #17 on Dec 20, 2008, 1:07pm »
While the main message is female empowerment, you could simply extrapolate that message to encompass any minority group that at times feels powerless; i.e. homosexuals. I'm gay, and I could relate to the show quite easily. Yes, I lived vicariously through the exploits of a tiny girl beating up on giant demons and the occasional jock. A gay male character could be cool, but it isn't necessary, if the reason for it is just for the sake of having a gay male character. I agree that most media presentations of gay characters is stereotypical, and that's probably the reason why I can't bring myself to watch Ugly Betty.
While the main message is female empowerment, you could simply extrapolate that message to encompass any minority group that at times feels powerless; i.e. homosexuals. I'm gay, and I could relate to the show quite easily. Yes, I lived vicariously through the exploits of a tiny girl beating up on giant demons and the occasional jock. A gay male character could be cool, but it isn't necessary, if the reason for it is just for the sake of having a gay male character. I agree that most media presentations of gay characters is stereotypical, and that's probably the reason why I can't bring myself to watch Ugly Betty.
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