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Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Thread Started on Dec 6, 2010, 5:58pm »
Didn't watch Firefly so can't comment on that Dollhouse...well pretty much most characters are basically lying somewhere between morally grey and evil, but there aren't really specific complete monster However when I think about Buffyverse...I must say come to think of it, Angelus is probably one of the most scary disgusting monster in TV. Even other evil villains in Buffyverse showed some signs of human emotions such as Master/Darla, Darla/Drusilla, Drusilla/Spike, Glory and her shoes. Even the First only tried to unleash a horde of Turok Han to kill everybody, that's nothing comparing to Angelus feet. I mean look at his rap sheet, what he did to Drusilla, the way he placed Jenny's body in Giles apartment. I'm pretty sure even the First would run away from Angelus lol As much as I love Joss, this also makes him frightening... I mean if he could think of that...what else are trapped inside that little brain of his...or better(worse?) yet, what would happen if we have a vampire Joss!
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Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #2 on Dec 6, 2010, 9:09pm »
My vote goes to Lilah Morgan. Holland Manners is close.
Come to think of it ... Holland Manners might be number one. He seems to be evil in an uncalculating way, as if it comes to him by nature, and I don't detect any natural feelings in him at all.
Angelus is scary, but he does have feelings. It's the coldness of Holland Manners that makes him so ... I don't know what.
Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #3 on Dec 6, 2010, 10:36pm »
If we are talking about who did the most evil deeds in the Whedonverse then I would have to say Angelus, but if we talking about which one was the most evil to its core without counting what was done on the show, then I would have to say that the first evil is the most evil.
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Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #4 on Dec 7, 2010, 4:21am »
I'd say in terms of evil brutality...Angelus hands down. Overall evilness...well, I guess you can say Wolfram and Hart, cuz isn't their main game to be evil?
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Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #5 on Dec 7, 2010, 12:32pm »
umm trying to decide who was the evilest to harder than i thought but i would have to say Dark Witch Willow was pretty terrifying to me. But she's not evil now so someone who is evil and still evil would be angel/angelus, ibut if you haven't read the comics i guess you wouldn't know why some people think angel is evil.
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Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #6 on Dec 7, 2010, 5:29pm »
angel in season 8.... I wouldn't call him evil i just can't care much about this character in season 8 in the end it's just the same old story, Angel being the puppet he has always been TPTB, Shanshu, W&H and now twilight, it just annoys me
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Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #7 on Dec 7, 2010, 6:52pm »
^^Dittto. As for most evil character I can't really decide. I think I want to say Caleb. In his short time he definitely left a mark. He really got off on being evil and never showed any qualms about it.
Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #8 on Dec 7, 2010, 7:00pm »
^I would have liked to see more about Calebs past, he confused me a little. What were his motivations? Who was he? How did he first encounter The First? Need to know more!
Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #10 on Dec 7, 2010, 7:15pm »
Well Angelus was truly evil, like with the Judge, he would have killed Spike or Drusilla with his touch, but Angelus it just 'kinda itches'.
The First evil also really is truly evil, but Buffy has a point that the first evil itself is really just 'the taunter' it's agents really do the dirty work.
Caleb was terrifying and evil on more than one level.
Angel had Holland Manners, but he did have some humanity such as a soft spot for Lindsey and he seemed to care about his wife. But even Illyria seemed to have a lot of humanity in her, though that could have been the Fred in her, who knows?
I'm inclined to agree that Angelus was really evil, but apart from his knack for torment he wasn't all that terrifying on a larger scale. Sure he was going to end the world, but a lot of demons and vampires tried to do that.
In the end, the most interesting villians have a purpose and some humanity to relate to, so any good villian is going to be written with that. Even the first had a desire to 'feel' that First Buffy talked about in Touched. So it's hard to pinpoint who the 'most' evil, it depends on what threatens you individually I guess. For me I think it's Caleb, his dogmatic hatred of women sort of disgusts me to the core.
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Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #11 on Dec 7, 2010, 9:31pm »
Caleb and The First.
Funny, when I was thinking of the most evil villains, I didn't think of Caleb. I guess it's because, as a couple people have said, he doesn't seem quite real. His hatred of women is so extreme, it's more than a mystery, it's like an imposture. Nathan Fillian did a good job with that role. I believed Caleb when he was on the screen, but thinking back on him, I just couldn't hold him in my mind.
The First I always figured as more a principle or drive or tendency, something simple, not a complete personality but one of the elements from which a personality might be made. I understood "First/Buffy" for instance as an image of Buffy but with the evil part brought out into relief. I hope that makes sense. I think there was a "First/Mayor" who said something about that, I haven't gotten to that episode yet.
I just watched "Conversations With Dead People," I think I may watch it again. That's where we get the most clues as to what The First is about. Notice The First always tells people "you can't make a difference, you can't even control yourself, nobody cares about you, just give up and die." The First is the voice that says those things. Remember "First/Joyce" told Dawn, "Buffy won't choose you."
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Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #12 on Dec 9, 2010, 12:23am »
I'm torn between Warren Mears from Buffy or Nolan Kinnard from Dollhouse (y'know, from Belonging).
Warren is a misogynistic jackass in every way. He starts off just seeming a bit sleazy, but then he attempts to rape Katrina, murders her and shows absolutely no guilt for his actions. He then tries to kill Buffy, for reasons that can essentially be boiled down to because she emasculated him, and kills Tara with pretty much no remorse. Then the awfulness that is Season 8 brings him back, where he continues to feel not guilty about his actions and proceeds to try and kill Buffy, Willow and co. out of jealousy. He just disgusts me so much. I can forgive a lot of the other villains because they seem to have other motivations, Glory wants to go home, The First wants to become corporeal along with ruling the world, Caleb wishes to please The First. Much of Warren's motivation lies in petty jealousy and masculinity issues. He has just no redeeming elements to him. He's just an absolutely repulsive human being.
Nolan Kinnard disturbs me way more though. I think it's because the villains on Dollhouse are just so much more human than anything on Buffy (not necessarily Angel, Lindsay and Lilah are very human characters). His actions against Priya I think are more serious and damaging than any other villains (minus perhaps, if it was explored more, the Hands of Blue and River). He kidnaps a young woman, with a promising art career, mind rapes her, forcing her into a psychotic mess, and then when he has finally manipulated the situation enough to force her into the Dollhouse, he rents her out so he can essentially rape her when he wants, how he wants etc. It takes the most repulsive of human beings to ever do what he did to someone else and when Sierra killed him I couldn't help but be happy that someone that evil has been rid from the Earth. He just completely stole the life of someone, and forced her into pretty much the worst of conditions.
I'm torn between Warren Mears from Buffy or Nolan Kinnard from Dollhouse (y'know, from Belonging).
Warren is a misogynistic jackass in every way. He starts off just seeming a bit sleazy, but then he attempts to rape Katrina, murders her and shows absolutely no guilt for his actions. He then tries to kill Buffy, for reasons that can essentially be boiled down to because she emasculated him, and kills Tara with pretty much no remorse. Then the awfulness that is Season 8 brings him back, where he continues to feel not guilty about his actions and proceeds to try and kill Buffy, Willow and co. out of jealousy. He just disgusts me so much. I can forgive a lot of the other villains because they seem to have other motivations, Glory wants to go home, The First wants to become corporeal along with ruling the world, Caleb wishes to please The First. Much of Warren's motivation lies in petty jealousy and masculinity issues. He has just no redeeming elements to him. He's just an absolutely repulsive human being.
Nolan Kinnard disturbs me way more though. I think it's because the villains on Dollhouse are just so much more human than anything on Buffy (not necessarily Angel, Lindsay and Lilah are very human characters). His actions against Priya I think are more serious and damaging than any other villains (minus perhaps, if it was explored more, the Hands of Blue and River). He kidnaps a young woman, with a promising art career, mind rapes her, forcing her into a psychotic mess, and then when he has finally manipulated the situation enough to force her into the Dollhouse, he rents her out so he can essentially rape her when he wants, how he wants etc. It takes the most repulsive of human beings to ever do what he did to someone else and when Sierra killed him I couldn't help but be happy that someone that evil has been rid from the Earth. He just completely stole the life of someone, and forced her into pretty much the worst of conditions.
I'm surprised that I didn't think about either, specifically Nolan as Sierra is probably my favourite whedonverse character, but I completely agree with you, both are disturbing on a very human level. I suppose I was thinking of larger than life villains, but human villains are often even more terrifying.
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Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #15 on Dec 9, 2010, 10:54am »
Nolan Kinnard? I have a suggestion to make about him that may disturb you guys.
His behavior, accomplished through old-fashioned violence, would've been accepted as normal not so long ago, so long as the victim belonged to some class of people recognized as inferior. This kind of thinking is not extinct even now, not by a long shot.
Do you remember what Albert Camus said in "The Plague," "a man needs slaves like he needs fresh air"? I suppose he was using the masculine to include the feminine, implying that women were no different. I'd like to think that women are different and better, but we don't really know for sure, do we? Women, again even now, are less likely to have power to abuse. Maybe they would be just as tyrannical as men are, if they had the same chances.
Nolan Kinnard, as I read it, was offended that a woman he regarded as his inferior had the effrontery to reject him. I could be wrong, but I assume there exist other women whom he would recognize as of his own kind, from whom a rejection would've been more acceptable.
Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #16 on Dec 9, 2010, 7:29pm »
^^Well yes but that doesn't make it any less wrong. Also, I'm not offended by it because it's a man treating a woman that way (not that, that doesn't offend me) but because it's a person treating another person that way. Dogmatic hatred like that of someone you see as 'inferior' for whatever reason is one of the scariest things I can think of. Racism, sexism, religious hatred, homophobia, all the way down to hating a certain hair color can be the scariest thing because it makes people treat people like slaves. Or worse makes them truly slaves.
The issue with Nolan or Warren is not in that they are in any way uncommon, but the fact that it is common is wholly disturbing.
The issue with Nolan or Warren is not in that they are in any way uncommon, but the fact that it is common is wholly disturbing.
You summarized it so well. Sure other villains in the series have caused more overall damage and destruction, and from that standpoint could be considered more evil. They're larger than life, they're larger than humanity in many ways. But Warren and Nolan are so human in so many ways, and that is what makes their villainy so absolutely terrifying as well as, well, evil.
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Re: Who's the most evil character in Whedonverse « Reply #18 on Dec 10, 2010, 10:28am »
If it's common, then it's hard to think of it as a personal failing.
We know that in the days of slavery, many slave-owners made mistresses of their female slaves. This was frowned on in public, as I gather from reading history, but what was the attitude in private? I suspect many people, even women, shrugged their shoulders, "boys will be boys" and so on.
Don't forget, slavery is still with us. I spent nine months in Thailand when I was in the Army. I heard about slave auctions in the countryside. I also saw things go on in the brothels, where the girls were not slaves as we usually think of it, that were as bad or worse than what happened to Sierra.
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