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Emmie Higher Power I'm a Slayer. Ask me how! member is offline
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Re: Season 8 - Twilight Part 4: Issue 35 « Reply #262 on May 5, 2010, 8:44pm »
A/C, a mention in the letter columns by Allie isn't sufficient for me. Actual textual evidence showing that she knows is required. And that will happen if she's not surprised when he arrives, which I'm fine with it. But the story is the story, not the letter columns. If an interview or editor needs to explain something, the storyteller is doing it wrong.
Amy and Andrew could be dead. They're simply in the midst of dying, as it were. It's like a cliffhanger where their bloods dripping on the floor mid-apocalypse. It's only ambiguous in the sense of not being established yet if they're going to stand up or never get up again. And that's what happens in the next issue, so till then I'm not saying one way or the other.
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Re: Season 8 - Twilight Part 4: Issue 35 « Reply #263 on May 5, 2010, 9:31pm »
Haha jeez, it's not like Scott commenting on a letter means Joss isn't doing his job right when we know nothing. Buffy and Spike aren't going to be invisible to each other during the final issues, we'll know what's up in September.
I'm glad we're still not exactly clear on what the hell is going on, especially with Angel. Makes going into the final arc more exciting. As long as Xander's question from the beginning is answered, I'm fine with everything that's happening. Time to fix what was broken.
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Re: Season 8 - Twilight Part 4: Issue 35 « Reply #265 on May 6, 2010, 1:22am »
I loved this issue. Probably had more fun with it then any other issue this season.
It didn't really provide any answers, and any that are there will have to be fan-wanked over, but it told me enough for now. I feel like it's right that Joss should give us the answers.
And idk, people are crying OOC for Angel, but didn't anyone else sympathise and see where he is coming from? And what he was suggesting this issue? It couldn't just be me...
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Re: Season 8 - Twilight Part 4: Issue 35 « Reply #266 on May 6, 2010, 4:07am »
Wow, sounds like an exciting issue. I wanna read it simply for Spike's appearance, though the stuff about Angel is upsetting me. I loved Angel for who he was and how he went about, saving others on his path to redemption, making his mission in life and now he doesn't care about the world burning, even if Connor is still there? This is the guy who allowed himself to be killed to save an entire city and his son. Boy, it's gonna be a loooong wait until we find out what's gonna happen next
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Re: Season 8 - Twilight Part 4: Issue 35 « Reply #267 on May 6, 2010, 6:29am »
Wow, I kind of felt let down with this issue. One thing being the Lame Buffy/Angel dialog and unnecessary clothing changes (love the 80’s ? one tho) Warren still being alive. Andrew being part of Buffy’s “family”? I really like the guy, but family? Really? The Buffy and Angel ‘love scenes’ made me want to vomit all over the place. The fight scene and demons looked like something out of ‘Touchwood’ and so did Spike’s spaceship. But I really love Spikes return to season 4 wardrobe. I am still really into the universe storyline considering.
« Last Edit: May 6, 2010, 6:34am by Hallow Thorn »
And idk, people are crying OOC for Angel, but didn't anyone else sympathise and see where he is coming from? And what he was suggesting this issue? It couldn't just be me...
Nope, not the slightest bit of sympathy here. Sorry.
Watching the world die so you and your girlfriend can be happy is pretty much the opposite of heroism. Or good. In fact, I'd call it evil.
Re: Season 8 - Twilight Part 4: Issue 35 « Reply #270 on May 6, 2010, 8:27am »
I REALLY appreciated the moment where Buffy chooses her family over fate, and to be honest, Angel took one HUGE step towards redemption in my eyes (redemption from his Twilight misdeeds, that is) when he decided to follow her.
"Everything is so fragile. There's so much conflict, so much pain. You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize this is it: the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along, that weird, unbearable delight that's actual happy--I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then gone."
Re: Season 8 - Twilight Part 4: Issue 35 « Reply #271 on May 6, 2010, 8:29am »
Somewhat of a review on 35.
Today I tried to re-access my initial violently negative reaction to issue 35 and rationalize why exactly I disliked it so much. I came to conclusion that it was a rather poor execution than the plot itself.
I hate to blame the messenger - Twilight arc is and will remain for me part of the canon - and it was thought out and shaped by Joss Whedon. It had great potential - maybe. It was , however , delivered in a very messy and unsatisfactory manner.
Now, I will try to list my beef with issue 35. The problem might lie - as I suspect now - with Brad Meltzer's inability to write drama properly. He is good enough with comedy, that's why his first 2 issues if the Twilight arc were such a great success. He is decent when it comes to plotting out the details - for example Andrew's character really shone in this arc.
But he is helpless when it comes to Big Picture, as his big story gets mostly lost among the trees of the 'windows dressings'.
For example he spent tremendous amount of time on fleshing out the historical Slayers - how they dressed , how the vamps they killed looked like - and to what avail?
To show a couple flashy panels with Buffy and Angel dressed in various costume props? What was the impact of that on the storyline - ? - none whatsoever.
I now start to suspect that Brad often forgets what he initially puts in his scripts - and he has so many ideas that look shiny and cool to him that he gets carried away by excess of them and that messes up his main plot so completely and entirely that the reader finally gives up on trying to follow him.
There were tons of plotlines that were started and then dropped - without any answers ever being delivered. For example - what really happened to all those dead Slayers whom Willow found while searching for Faith-Giles? Where they shown just 'for kicks'?
Who was killing them? Why did Angel-as-Twilight really picked up Giles, Faith and Andrew as hostages - was it because Brad needed the trio in the Twilight's HQ so that they can 'conveniently' be involved in the plot? This is not called a proper plot, Sir.
This is cheating. Or Satsu's 'drrramatic' exit - that was immediately reverted in #35. I now suspect that was done also 'just for kicks', and was never intended to deliver any serious message.
The whole Twilight - universe that 'we can change at will' - the size of the kitchen.... er the Bronze dancefloor. Why did Buffy wanted it to be Bronze - any meaning to it ? None that I could see. I won't even cover the black-nail-polished-Death-Star-riding-Spike - that was the blah-est blah on my list.
Then the dialogs... I tried to give him the benefit of doubt. I honestly did. I am a big B/A fan and I was willing to wait patiently till the end of the arc to see at least a glimpse of character justification. I saw none. In fact Angel speaks and acts remotely as an Angel-bot, programmed to 'luv' Buffy. "Shall I repeat this last program for you, Buff?"
Was my reaction to the 'philosophical discussion' in 35. If Meltzer ever intended to show that 'these characters truly love each other', then this particular message also fell flat on its face in 35. Goodness - they had 10 pages of dialog - and all I can remember was a 'Duffy Duck' cartoon reference. Man - that was supposed to be their reunion - after almost 2 years! He was sent to Hell- LA and turned human and died to save them all and came back again - and she survived the most deadly of all of her Apocalypses - and all they could say to each other after making love was 'I won't discuss the afterglow - yeah baby lets talk why we should evolve and forget about the rest of the world. No, baby, lets go save our friends first. Are you sure - yeah - OK lets go save'em. '
And that was supposed to be the message Angel character delivers?
Well, thanks , but no thanks.
I suspect though that Brad was held back by the strict limits of what he can and cannot show. Sex - yeah- OK, love - big no-no in saying it aloud.
The other fans my get offended by the 'L' word - and stop buying the comic. I say that Andrew-Warren connection was better executed and delivered in the whole issue 35 than that of Buffy-Angel - and this comes from a dedicated B/A- fan who loves the couple dearly. So, as result we have had an Angel-bot shaggin Buffy-bot disguised as a 'long awaited reunion'. I suspect now the duo might be joined by a Spike-bot - in a yellow submarine soon.
Now, I am sorry for all the negativity... but please correct me if I am wrong - I wish to be mistaken so dearly.
To finish on the positive note though - the only thing that somewhat saves the #35 - and as result the entire Twilight arc is George Jeanty's art. He is amazing. He manages to step in for the entire team of actors and take over the delivery of the message that the writer of the arc fails so completely to deliver - but his arc alone is , unfortunately not enough to save it.
And idk, people are crying OOC for Angel, but didn't anyone else sympathise and see where he is coming from? And what he was suggesting this issue? It couldn't just be me...
Nope, not the slightest bit of sympathy here. Sorry.
Watching the world die so you and your girlfriend can be happy is pretty much the opposite of heroism. Or good. In fact, I'd call it evil.
I have no real idea, but I don't think that is happening. Of course he want's the Happily Bangel Ever After... blah, blah, blah. But there's something else going on. It even reads to me like Angel was just as surprised by what happened (the sexcapades) as Buffy was. Then at one point Angel says:
"We can help them. We can fix it. We can fix everything, Buffy."
And he tried to tell's her how things "got funky" in L.A. before Buffy cuts him off in #33.
I think something big must have happened and Angel believes the only way to solve it is through Twilight. That's why he is desperate for Buffy to stay there, because it takes both of them for it to work. Whether he is right or not is still a question. Also his dubious action's under the mask haven't really been dealt with...
I try and think of it in terms of Angel's perspective and whether or not something tragic has happened in his life, or something he is trying to prevent. For example, if it's reveled that Connor has died and Angel is doing all this for the chance to get him back, then it does, for me at least, change things.
All that has yet to be answered, but I just don't think this was all about Angel's wish-fulfillment for an eternity of Bangel sex in the Twilight!Zone.
I think something big must have happened and Angel believes the only way to solve it is through Twilight. That's why he is desperate for Buffy to stay there, because it takes both of them for it to work. Whether he is right or not is still a question. Also his dubious action's under the mask haven't really been dealt with...
If he knew of some way that their Twilight-ish-ness could be used to stop what was happening, then he should have explained that and said so, rather than just blithering on about happiness.
This is another example of Twangel contradicting himself within the space of a few seconds. One moment he tells her "You are fighting for them," and the next he says the world has to die. One moment he says they can help them and fix everything, and the next moment he wants to close the window and let them die on their own.
Just like when Buffy first confronted him in #33, he first claimed not to have killed anyone, despite obviously having done so.
I consider Angel at this point to be an utter and absolute failure as a heroic character. He fulfilled the prophecy that he would, in the end, fight for the destruction of humanity. If that's the way Joss wants to take the story, that's his right. But it's reached the point where I don't want to see Angel redeemed anymore. I just want to see him punished. And I have no further interest in seeing his story continue independently of Buffy's.
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Re: Season 8 - Twilight Part 4: Issue 35 « Reply #274 on May 6, 2010, 9:16am »
I'm almost where you are Andrew but somehow thinking back to everything Angel's ever done and the obvious out of characterness that is twangel leaves some room in my mind that joss will find a way to rationalize this in his arc somehow. Not saying that is good in fact it'll make for a very contived story but...It'll save Angel as a character in the respect that he might still be able to go on fighting for what he truly does believe rather than something the Universe has forced on him which seems like the obvious next direction which is that he was forced by the glow/universe and wasn't within his own mental faculties for a majority of his actions.
There's one instance in Angel's history makes me belive beyond a shadow of a doubt that this isnt the end for him. In season 4 episode 21 "Peace out" He tells Jasmine that Paradise isn't something that can be chosen to be made for other people by a single person it has to be done with free will and choice by each and every person. He hasn't changed all that much between where his series ends and where season eight begins and a message so powerful as that that he would throw himself against a power that was is too important to throw away to jumpstart the universes next stage of evolution.
I think something big must have happened and Angel believes the only way to solve it is through Twilight. That's why he is desperate for Buffy to stay there, because it takes both of them for it to work. Whether he is right or not is still a question. Also his dubious action's under the mask haven't really been dealt with...
If he knew of some way that their Twilight-ish-ness could be used to stop what was happening, then he should have explained that and said so, rather than just blithering on about happiness.
This is another example of Twangel contradicting himself within the space of a few seconds. One moment he tells her "You are fighting for them," and the next he says the world has to die. One moment he says they can help them and fix everything, and the next moment he wants to close the window and let them die on their own.
Just like when Buffy first confronted him in #33, he first claimed not to have killed anyone, despite obviously having done so.
I consider Angel at this point to be an utter and absolute failure as a heroic character. He fulfilled the prophecy that he would, in the end, fight for the destruction of humanity. If that's the way Joss wants to take the story, that's his right. But it's reached the point where I don't want to see Angel redeemed anymore. I just want to see him punished. And I have no further interest in seeing his story continue independently of Buffy's.
Well that's all keeping in with Twilight's character. I mean he has been the Big Bad all season. If suddenly this issue he started saying all the right things... that would be more disappointing to me. And the biggest trump card he has in his arsenal against Buffy is the "happiness" angle, so it seems logical he would focus on that.
Plus people talk one minute about characters being under the influence of Twilight and then when they actually act strange talk about OOC-ness. It doesn't compute.
As for why no explanation to Buffy, maybe it has something to do with Angel knowing about the future. He says to Buffy in "After These Messages..." that he wouldn't tell someone about their future if he knew it.
If he knew of some way that their Twilight-ish-ness could be used to stop what was happening, then he should have explained that and said so, rather than just blithering on about happiness.
This is another example of Twangel contradicting himself within the space of a few seconds. One moment he tells her "You are fighting for them," and the next he says the world has to die. One moment he says they can help them and fix everything, and the next moment he wants to close the window and let them die on their own.
Just like when Buffy first confronted him in #33, he first claimed not to have killed anyone, despite obviously having done so.
I consider Angel at this point to be an utter and absolute failure as a heroic character. He fulfilled the prophecy that he would, in the end, fight for the destruction of humanity. If that's the way Joss wants to take the story, that's his right. But it's reached the point where I don't want to see Angel redeemed anymore. I just want to see him punished. And I have no further interest in seeing his story continue independently of Buffy's.
Well that's all keeping in with Twilight's character. I mean he has been the Big Bad all season. If suddenly this issue he started saying all the right things... that would be more disappointing to me. And the biggest trump card he has in his arsenal against Buffy is the "happiness" angle, so it seems logical he would focus on that.
Plus people talk one minute about characters being under the influence of Twilight and then when they actually act strange talk about OOC-ness. It doesn't compute.
As for why no explanation to Buffy, maybe it has something to do with Angel knowing about the future. He says to Buffy in "After These Messages..." that he wouldn't tell someone about their future if he knew it.
Well that's all keeping in with Twilight's character. I mean he has been the Big Bad all season. If suddenly this issue he started saying all the right things... that would be more disappointing to me. And the biggest trump card he has in his arsenal against Buffy is the "happiness" angle, so it seems logical he would focus on that.
Plus people talk one minute about characters being under the influence of Twilight and then when they actually act strange talk about OOC-ness. It doesn't compute.
As for why no explanation to Buffy, maybe it has something to do with Angel knowing about the future. He says to Buffy in "After These Messages..." that he wouldn't tell someone about their future if he knew it.
I don't believe "the influence of Twilight" is enough to explain the things Angel (or Buffy) have done. They seem to be fully rational and in control of their thoughts and actions. Neither of them are acting right now like they've just awakened from a mind-raping.
Granted, the only line Angel spoke after leaving the Twilight Zone (IIRC) was the one he said to Willow, indicating that he realized he deserved her anger. So maybe he's experiencing major regret right now. But it would be nice if that was made a bit clearer in the text, because it's very important.
The only way he can redeem himself at this point... the ONLY way... is if he can somehow make it so these things never happened. Being sorry isn't good enough with crimes as terrible as these.
And really, how many chances at redemption should one person be allowed? At what point does it just turn into a sucker's game? The guy has now twice come within inches of destroying the world.
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Re: Season 8 - Twilight Part 4: Issue 35 « Reply #279 on May 6, 2010, 10:28am »
Yeah, I don't know Andrew, about anything really... I don't even particularly like Angel in the first place. I didn't want any vampires in season 8 that couldn't be dusted on sight. I got over them on the show and I'm sick to death of them both. Spike had only three lines in #35 and I was like, "Augh, here we go again...."
I just wished there had been REAL ANSWERS this issue.
But I knew it would be like this. Before every big arc or issue the DH PR goes into "wait till next issue, all will be explained" and it never is. Same thing happened with the Fray arc and finding out how the timelines matched up, or how we were meant to find out sooo much during Retreat.
They should of had a warning on issue #1, "Nothing you read from this point on will make the slightest bit of sense until the VERY LAST ARC 4 YEARS LATER. Enjoy!"
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