|
Post by krazyxxxdj on Mar 10, 2010 1:57:43 GMT -5
But, in my defense, she does say something along the lines of actually needing to be without powers in order to feel connected. "I don't want to stand above people anymore" or something to those lines. Sure, she misses being able to move boulders easy, but I think she was content with the trade-off.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Mar 10, 2010 2:05:17 GMT -5
But, in my defense, she does say something along the lines of actually needing to be without powers in order to feel connected. "I don't want to stand above people anymore" or something to those lines. Sure, she misses being able to move boulders easy, but I think she was content with the trade-off. She does say that, but moving boulders is the physical aspect of the scene. Buffy misses what she's giving up because it is a part of her. However, as you pointed out, she does miss the other part, the part that felt connected.
|
|
cheryl
Novice Witch
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 246
|
Post by cheryl on Mar 10, 2010 8:06:02 GMT -5
What really, really squicks me here is the attitude (apparently shared by many fans) that "Buffy is in love with Angel, so she has to have sex with him whenever he shows up, no matter what he does."
Well, I do believe that Buffy loves Angel, by her own account last season, she loved him more than she will ever love anything in this life...so yeah, it's easy to go there this season.
The next part of your post makes no sense to me. Buffy and Angel don't have sex everytime he shows up, in fact, Buffy and Angel have never been allowed that particular physical pleasure with each other since we, and they, found out that Buffy is the trigger to Angel's curse. "Perfect happiness clause" thy name is Buffy Summers.
So YEAH, for fans who like Buffy and Angel together, the thought that they might be allowed that pleasure now, this once, it's pretty darn exciting. They have only ever had sex twice and one of those Buffy doesn't even remember. (IWRY)
What Buffy and Angel do is smooch when they see each other, it's the only thing that was safe for them, until now?
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 10, 2010 8:44:29 GMT -5
Since I already made an argument about this above (in which I didn't endorse killing 206 to save 1800), I'm just going to pose a couple of questions: What should Angel have done? And does your answer stem from just your righteous rage, or a full understanding of the situation? He should have done what he's always done... try to stop bad people from killing good people. Killing good people yourself is pretty much the antithesis of that. And as I said, if Joss wants to go that route, then he needs to stop copping out by only sacrificing faceless characters. He needs to bring home what "sacrificing a few" really means. All 206 of those Slayers were taken away from people who loved them as much as Buffy loves Willow or Xander or Giles. Sacrifice one of them for the "greater good," and then we'll see how eager she is to part her dimpled knees for their killer. "Righteous rage" makes it sound pretentious... "moral outrage" would be closer to it. What Buffy is doing now is a betrayal. Btw, your karma hit... how many points are we talking here? 3 points in the last 2-3 days. I don't mind being disagreed with, I just want people to let me know who they are and why they disagree. Having your karma sniped is like getting anonymous notes that just say "You suck, dude." Anyway... two things suggest to me that Buffy is not in rational control of her actions now. First, of course, is the 180-degree personality change that came over her within seconds of "the glow" appearing. Second is the fact that she's having sex with Angel without even bothering to ask him about the curse situation. I think it's safe to say Buffy hasn't thought about Angel once since "Innocence" without also thinking of that curse, so I don't buy that she's just forgotten it now. Sane Buffy would not just go ahead and do something like this, having every reason to believe it will release on the world a version of Angel who isn't burdened even with Twilight's twisted moral code. The next part of your post makes no sense to me. Buffy and Angel don't have sex everytime he shows up, in fact, Buffy and Angel have never been allowed that particular physical pleasure with each other since we, and they, found out that Buffy is the trigger to Angel's curse. "Perfect happiness clause" thy name is Buffy Summers. Look at the context. How could she go so quickly from wanting to kill him (with very good reason) to wanting to have sex with him? What is sexy about this situation? How can she see him in that way under these circumstances, at this moment? What about it screams anything other than wrong, wrong, wrong? Buffy may love Angel, but to show that nothing he does can hamper those feelings for more than a few seconds brings me right back to the truth that this is slavery, not love. Would Buffy have willingly had sex with Angelus? Because he succeeded in killing a lot fewer of her people than Twilight did. I've never had anything against the Buffy/Angel 'ship, but for Buffy to respond to this situation in this way isn't love... it's illness.
|
|
cheryl
Novice Witch
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 246
|
Post by cheryl on Mar 10, 2010 9:02:20 GMT -5
I think it's safe to say Buffy hasn't thought about Angel once since "Innocence" without also thinking of that curse, so I don't buy that she's just forgotten it now. Sane Buffy would not just go ahead and do something like this, having every reason to believe it will release on the world a version of Angel who isn't burdened even with Twilight's twisted moral code.
Buffy trusts Angel... so if he is telling her, in so many words, that it's safe to "be together" right now, she believes him. If that's really what's about to happen. All Buffy has done to this point is kiss Angel, which she has done many times since innocence.
More than anything, Buffy and Angel deserve this moment together because as Angel says and it's true, they don't have a lot of experience with joy. Angel's question of Buffy is heartbreaking if you really listen to what he says... "What if, just once, the right thing for us to do is also the most wonderful?" In a nutshell, both these characters have to do what's right and that doesn't coincide with happiness for either of them. He wants just one moment to feel joy. One moment. He wants his one moment of perfect happiness without the curse. In my view, it makes perfect sense and I hope he gets it. I hope she gets it too. The level of connection that she craves but can't find anywhere else.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 10, 2010 9:15:26 GMT -5
Buffy trusts Angel... so if he is telling her, in so many words, that it's safe to "be together" right now, she believes him. He's spent the past year hiding behind a mask, hurting her, and engineering the deaths of good people who were her friends and colleagues. And now she blindly trusts him on something of this magnitude? Based on a 10-second explanation with nothing to back it up? All Buffy has done to this point is kiss Angel, which she has done many times since innocence. Willow: "I think they're f#%@ing" Next month's issue title: "Them f#%@ing" And Scott Allie has told us next month's issue will be all about the romance. More than anything, Buffy and Angel deserve this moment together because as Angel says and it's true, they don't have a lot of experience with joy. Angel's question of Buffy is heartbreaking if you really listen to what he says... "What if, just once, the right thing for us to do is also the most wonderful?" In a nutshell, both these characters have to do what's right and that doesn't coincide with happiness for either of them. He wants just one moment to feel joy. One moment. He wants his one moment of perfect happiness without the curse. In my view, it makes perfect sense and I hope he gets it. I hope she gets it too. The level of connection that she craves but can't find anywhere else. Under other circumstances, this would be true. Not under these.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Mar 10, 2010 10:02:36 GMT -5
He should have done what he's always done... try to stop bad people from killing good people. Killing good people yourself is pretty much the antithesis of that. But that's the thing. If you take his word for it, he is trying to stop the "bad people" from killing the "good people", by making sure that fewer good people get killed. Can't save them all. And again, the "bad people" vs. "good people" argument is kinda moral gray ground anyway. On both sides, you have people doing what's they think is best. This is Slayers against regular humans. Both sides are human, and therefore not the "other". The entire S8 is a social commentary of sorts, how we're so easily swayed by arguments that morph the opposition into the "other". They're "animals", "terrorists", "commies", "heathens", "immoral", "red", "blue", "ignorant", etc. All names that have previously been used to justify war. And as I said, if Joss wants to go that route, then he needs to stop copping out by only sacrificing faceless characters. He needs to bring home what "sacrificing a few" really means. All 206 of those Slayers were taken away from people who loved them as much as Buffy loves Willow or Xander or Giles. Sacrifice one of them for the "greater good," and then we'll see how eager she is to part her dimpled knees for their killer. "Righteous rage" makes it sound pretentious... "moral outrage" would be closer to it. What Buffy is doing now is a betrayal. Hey, righteous rage, moral outrage, same thing to me. The operative term being "rage", which implies less objectivity. Killing one of the Scoobies would probably hurt more, yes, but I don't agree that Buffy has forgotten, or ignored the fact that 206 girls have died. But you seem pretty hung up on this "killer" deal, whereas some of us are willing to see how it works out first. Allie did say that it's a lot to ask fans to swallow at the moment. But Angel was already a killer in S5, so why despise him now? Again, I ask, is it because Angel was one of the "good guys" before, and therefore we cheered him on in his crusade against Wolfram and Hart, despite the killings? Is he now repugnant because for the past 3 years, we've all figured Twilight to be the "bad guy"? I'm not saying that Twilight may not be evil, but given the recent turn of events, I'm re-evaluating everything I know of the season thus far, and so far, I'm coming up with quite a bunch of nothings... most things I knew, I had presupposed. 3 points in the last 2-3 days. I don't mind being disagreed with, I just want people to let me know who they are and why they disagree. Having your karma sniped is like getting anonymous notes that just say "You suck, dude." Agreed on that note. Will fix that in a second. Anyway... two things suggest to me that Buffy is not in rational control of her actions now. First, of course, is the 180-degree personality change that came over her within seconds of "the glow" appearing. Second is the fact that she's having sex with Angel without even bothering to ask him about the curse situation. I think it's safe to say Buffy hasn't thought about Angel once since "Innocence" without also thinking of that curse, so I don't buy that she's just forgotten it now. Sane Buffy would not just go ahead and do something like this, having every reason to believe it will release on the world a version of Angel who isn't burdened even with Twilight's twisted moral code. I'd argue that the glow started way before she actually stopped trying to kill Angel. Look at the wideshot panel of her bodyslamming Angel into the sky. They're glowing then. Just about every panel where she's trying to hit Angel, her fists are glowing. It doesn't happen "within seconds". In comic book terms, the exact duration of the fight is unclear. It's not like we have a stopwatch at the bottom of each panel. Secondly, I don't think the curse situation plays into this here. And I think Buffy is pretty aware of it's lack of influence on the matter. Because her body/instincts/whatever it is that's "singing" tells her so. Not Angel. He merely tells her to listen to herself. But I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. At least until more information comes up. I may switch sides on this issue on a later note, but at this point, I remain on the fence, despite the fact that I seem to be advocating Angel's side. Just playing devil's advocate.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 10, 2010 10:29:46 GMT -5
Assuming for the sake of argument that Angel truly is in the best possible light here... that he really did try his best to save Slayer lives, that he really does feel sorrow for the ones that died, and that he really does have only the best of intentions right now...
It's just not right, any way you slice it, that Buffy can go from trying to kill him to sexing him up, so quickly and with so little resolution to what was making her angry. Whyever he did what he did, it's simply too abrupt a change in attitude for her, and it bothers me more than anything that's ever happened in the Buffyverse.
But the more I discuss it, the more upset I get, so I think I need to just leave it be until more information is forthcoming... preview pages, at least. For the first time since season 8 began, I have to honestly say I am NOT looking forward to the next issue. But I do really want to see what happens when Buffy next faces her friends... especially Xander, Willow, and Satsu, who have all suffered a great deal from the things Twilight and his minions have done in service to his notion of the greater good.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Mar 10, 2010 11:23:13 GMT -5
I'm guessing that the fan outrage may mirror their reaction.
|
|
Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
|
Post by Paul on Mar 10, 2010 12:24:51 GMT -5
Ok, now that my initial "ZOMG Buffy and Angel kissage!!! Bangel 4eva!! <3 <3" fangasm has passed, I've tried to re-examine this issue in a more objective light.
I agree with others that Angel's motives need more explanation. At this point, I'm not sure I really believe or trust him. Either way, we need to know exactly what caused him to take up this mission and become Twilight. Like others, I'm a little concerned that Joss is going ignore the character's development in Angel. First and foremost; where is Connor and what does he think of all this? I know Joss doesn't approve of crossover continuity, but ingoring Angel's son (and #1 priority) is just crap characterisation. To be honest, the promise that this won't interfere with the IDW series at all makes me think that something fishy is still going on.
As for Buffy... as I said, now that my irrational Bangel fangasm has faded, I actually do share some concern that she's been "Bella-fied"; a slave to love, unable to think for herself. I'm interested to see how she behaves next issue. Everyone seems to be disgusted that she's fallen for the "bad guy", but has it occurred to anyone that she might genuinely agree with Angel's logic? Throughout the season, we've seen Buffy become more interested in the "big picture"... robbing banks, attacking humans, ignoring victims. Could it be that teaming up with Angel/Twilight is the next logical step in her character arc, whether she loves him or not?
So... I do have concerns/questions but I'm still thoroughly enjoying the story and interested to see what happens next. Like wenxina, I'm going to stay on the fence until we have more concrete information.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 10, 2010 14:22:23 GMT -5
Somebody reminded me of what Cordelia said to Doyle in I Will Remember You... "when those two get groiny with each other, the world as we know it falls apart."
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Mar 10, 2010 14:23:20 GMT -5
Well, check out the solicitation for #34 then. Sounds like the standard armageddon scenario.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 10, 2010 14:28:35 GMT -5
Well, check out the solicitation for #34 then. Sounds like the standard armageddon scenario. "Twilight has been unmasked. Buildings fall, oceans churn, and the earth moves as titans come together in a bizarre twist!"Also sounds like a standard "desperate Buffy sex" scenario.
|
|
Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
|
Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Mar 10, 2010 14:43:48 GMT -5
Well, check out the solicitation for #34 then. Sounds like the standard armageddon scenario. "Twilight has been unmasked. Buildings fall, oceans churn, and the earth moves as titans come together in a bizarre twist!"Also sounds like a standard "desperate Buffy sex" scenario. And suddenly the images of "Smashed", burned forever into my mind's eye, resurface and explode in front of me. Goodness.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Mar 10, 2010 14:48:58 GMT -5
"Explode" eh?
|
|
|
Post by lostsoul on Mar 10, 2010 20:16:44 GMT -5
Assuming for the sake of argument that Angel truly is in the best possible light here... that he really did try his best to save Slayer lives, that he really does feel sorrow for the ones that died, and that he really does have only the best of intentions right now... It's just not right, any way you slice it, that Buffy can go from trying to kill him to sexing him up, so quickly and with so little resolution to what was making her angry. Whyever he did what he did, it's simply too abrupt a change in attitude for her, and it bothers me more than anything that's ever happened in the Buffyverse. But the more I discuss it, the more upset I get, so I think I need to just leave it be until more information is forthcoming... preview pages, at least. For the first time since season 8 began, I have to honestly say I am NOT looking forward to the next issue. But I do really want to see what happens when Buffy next faces her friends... especially Xander, Willow, and Satsu, who have all suffered a great deal from the things Twilight and his minions have done in service to his notion of the greater good. I wonder if it was Oz’s baby that had been killed during the battle, the battle where Angel wanted to just sit back and watch, would it then make Buffy look bad to go in for the kissage?
|
|
NimNams
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 11
|
Post by NimNams on Mar 10, 2010 20:33:02 GMT -5
I no longer need to post. Wenxina has made every great point I can think of.
Though I am surprised by the anger this boinking has caused in some of the fanbase. Compared to the other events of the issue, it seems fairly minor to me. But hey, we're all of us different.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Mar 10, 2010 23:50:21 GMT -5
So... in honor of the 13th anniversary of BtVS first airing, Scott Allie posted this pic of his desk today. Spoilerific details to be had... kinda... Edited out. [/URL] Pretty sure that's Spike next to Buffy in that middle panel.[/spoiler]
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 11, 2010 0:08:29 GMT -5
Who's the girl in the panel behind Dawn? Is that Amy? Is that also Amy in the explosion-y panel right after the Buffy/Spike one?
|
|
Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
|
Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 11, 2010 0:27:00 GMT -5
Yeah, it looks like Amy and hey, Spike too
|
|