leyki
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 90
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Post by leyki on Jul 23, 2010 9:00:02 GMT -5
If i knew what makes me, i would be able to answer the question what happens to us after death.... And i never said that Lian, Angelus and Angel are 3 different entities, i said that they are 2 different entities, wasn't i clear about it? Can you please, when you have time, search and post me some quotes from the episodes, where it's written something that makes things unclear about it? We're tallking here, i would like to see where you base your opinion, like i've shown you some quotes which base mine.
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Randi Giles
Wise-cracking Sidekick
I Want to Believe
Moon Eyes in disguise.[Mo0:34]
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Randi Giles on Jul 23, 2010 9:00:42 GMT -5
You and I have a different oppinion. Lets just agree to disagree. Simple. That sounds like a good idea. Everybody has a right to their own opinion. Let's just try to take a little step back.
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jr24tw
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 44
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Post by jr24tw on Jul 23, 2010 9:11:34 GMT -5
And i never said that Lian, Angelus and Angel are 3 different entities, i said that they are 2 different entities, wasn't i clear about it? But they are 3 different entities. Liam (human), Angelus (unsouled demon) and Angel (souled demon). That makes 3 to me. To me it's not so much what is said. It's what I see. They can spout hours of dialogue and think they made it clear. When what I see tells me otherwise. Harmony and Spike for example are very close to their original human personalities. Why would they be if there wasn't some part of the human personality left in them? Which is the point Skytteflickan88 is trying to make. I think. I don't do quotes for things like this. When even Joss himself has admitted that the transformation of Spike kind of frustrated him because he wanted to keep the soul = good, no soul = evil theme going and it really didn't work out so much when it came to demons like Spike. All talk on screen. But I am shown something else entirely. For things like this I look at the characters themselves, their history and personality. Not dialogue. Because when it comes to this they contradicted themselves by saying one and showing another.
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leyki
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 90
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Post by leyki on Jul 23, 2010 9:13:12 GMT -5
True, a soul is just part of a human, not the whole she bang (did I say that right?) Which kind of helps my point, about there being something of the original being that survives the siring. What made that boy human, even tough souless, is something else. He could walk, talk, think. His thoughts, his brain, didn't disappear with the soul, so I don't think that part of him, his personality, would have "died" in case he got turned. If he liked marsmallows when alive, he might like them when undead. Btw, what did you mean by that first line? That him talking about Liam as a different person proves there's nothing of Liam left? But that he doesn't call himself Liam anymore doesn't mean that there's nothing of the human left, does it? Because sometimes people refer to themselves earlier in life as a he or she. "I'm not the same person anymore. That little girl, little Annie, is gone, replaced by me, the woman." for example. And the mythology of the show is open for interpretation, because they don't define what a soul is, or a demon, or what makes us human. That's up to us to interpret and speculate about. What is a demon? What is a soul? How much of the demon takes over? How relevant is the soul? Is the human made up of soul plus personality? In that case, how much of the personality of the person "dies" when turned? Those question, and more, are left unanswered, which means that we have to guess. That's what I'm saying. Liam was personality+memories+soul. Angelus was personality+memories+demon. Liam's personality, a part of the original human, survives to live on in the vampire. The human doesn't disappear entirely, a part live on. What exactly is a personality to you? I think to move forward in this conversation we need to understand each others definitions. You say the human die, yet you say that the human's personality survives, whish to me is part of the human, ergo, the human does not die, it changes. Ok, my opinion about it. I think, that we are all creatures in a universe, in dimensions, whatever. Demons, according to the mythology, is whatever is not a human or an animal of this planet. Personality, is for me, the way we walk, we talk, our habits, our thoughts, memories, what we prefer, how we react on things, what we like, things like these, if we are good, if we are bad, etc. Basically i think we have the same opinion on what a personality is. But.... When somebody becomes a vampire, the demon takes the characteristics that the human had before he died. So, the vampire's personality depends on the human's personality, but it is not the same, for example, if a holy man gets bitten, the vampire will take the characteristics of his personality, but will not be the same exactly, since holy men don't kill. Do you understand what i'm saying? Because english is not my mother language.... EDIT When i say characteristics, i don't mean appearance, i mean the characteristics of his personality. EDIT2 Like, as we saw in AtS, there can be a human without a soul, so basically, a soul is not that determines an entity. So, Angelus and Angel are the same entity. So, Liam, and Angelus-Angel are 2 entities, not three.... And i prefer quotes than explanations, because if you ask 1000 people you'll get 1000 different opinions and explanations, but what is written inside the show, one can never doubt.
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Randi Giles
Wise-cracking Sidekick
I Want to Believe
Moon Eyes in disguise.[Mo0:34]
Posts: 2,616
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Post by Randi Giles on Jul 23, 2010 9:39:34 GMT -5
That's what I'm saying. Liam was personality+memories+soul. Angelus was personality+memories+demon. Liam's personality, a part of the original human, survives to live on in the vampire. The human doesn't disappear entirely, a part live on. The only thing I'm not sure about this is if rather or not Liam and Angelus had the same personality. Which is why I'm on the fence if Angel's soul was Liam's soul. I do however think it's safe to say that all three had their memories in common, which is really the things messes it all up. Is it Angel who feels guilty for all the wrong he did? Or is it Liam who feels guilty? Or is it Angelus with Liam soul? Or is it that Angel? Who the hell knows for sure?
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Scarygothgirl
Ensouled Vampire
'What are you doing here? This is a naked place!'
~The Truth Will Free My Soul~[Mo0:32]
Posts: 1,230
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Post by Scarygothgirl on Jul 24, 2010 9:27:22 GMT -5
I think they're still the same person but without a concience and with more sadistic urges. So in saying that I think Angelus was just Liam but evil. The difference between Angel and Liam the way I see it is the memories and the guilt and all the things that build up a personality. Like for example Spike's biggest personality change doesn;t appear to be when he lost his soul a became a vampire, it seemed to be more around the time he killed his own mother, which changed him as a person. Does that make sense?
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47kwest
Potential Slayer
"This is where the fun begins!"[Mo0:37]
Posts: 120
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Post by 47kwest on Jul 27, 2010 20:24:17 GMT -5
Hey there, I don't know how this might factor into all this debate, but in "The Dark Age" the demon goes into Angel and they to battle and the demon "Angelus" wins. From the human perspective, Angel, Angelus, and Liam are all technically dead. Or is Angelus living, just supressed. You guys have a tricky one going on here.
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