patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 12, 2010 3:59:51 GMT -5
Buffylover: What would be the point, though? If the First was Twilight, where would the emotional resonance be? Also, why would Joss just reuse the Season Seven villain again? Not really a possibility, I don't think.
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Tea - Total
Bad Ass Wicca
?The hardest thing in this world is to ...live in it....? [Mo0:4]
Posts: 2,118
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Post by Tea - Total on Jan 12, 2010 5:18:48 GMT -5
Buffylover: What would be the point, though? If the First was Twilight, where would the emotional resonance be? Also, why would Joss just reuse the Season Seven villain again? Not really a possibility, I don't think. But why would Joss reuse Angel as a big bad again , thats pointless. But nothing adds up, Angel is Buffy's lover which can easily effect her inner emotion, first true nature of power which lies in its ability to deceive, torment and manipulate, which would be Angel deceiving Buffy. The first can merge with certain beings, imbuing them with superhuman strength, stamina and durability, so it could happen that the first give him the power, so that could explain his power and strength and the abilities to fly. Angel made plans to bring about an end to magic, in both its good and evil forms, the whole subject of losing the magics in the world , the first might wonder if the world would be more under threat without magics. Reality we have monster and heartless people in our world.. So the scales could tip, so he could be corporal.
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Jan 12, 2010 8:26:45 GMT -5
Buffylover: What would be the point, though? If the First was Twilight, where would the emotional resonance be? Also, why would Joss just reuse the Season Seven villain again? Not really a possibility, I don't think. But why would Joss reuse Angel as a big bad again , thats pointless. But nothing adds up, Angel is Buffy's lover which can easily effect her inner emotion, first true nature of power which lies in its ability to deceive, torment and manipulate, which would be Angel deceiving Buffy. The first can merge with certain beings, imbuing them with superhuman strength, stamina and durability, so it could happen that the first give him the power, so that could explain his power and strength and the abilities to fly. Angel made plans to bring about an end to magic, in both its good and evil forms, the whole subject of losing the magics in the world , the first might wonder if the world would be more under threat without magics. Reality we have monster and heartless people in our world.. So the scales could tip, so he could be corporal. I don't think the First can be Twilight- it'd be too cliché and too much of a let down after all this hype Besides I don't see why the First would want to destroy magic, which Twilight probably does
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 12, 2010 10:07:21 GMT -5
You don't need spoiler tags in these issue threads. Those wary of spoilers should know by now not to enter them.
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Post by audandlovingit on Jan 12, 2010 12:13:52 GMT -5
I'm actually surprised that there is such shock over this accidental reveal. It seems a lot more palatable than the ever popular "it's Buffy from the future" or "it's alternate universe Buffy" theories, which I have to say I was on the side of for awhile. Buffylover's theory about THE FIRST seems a bit more on par. In my mind if Buffy actually has an arch-enemy it is THE FIRST. That evil crapisaur has tried to take our girl down twice to no avail. Then again it's just a theory. I've said it before, but I absolutely trust the series writers and cant' wait to see what this means for the Buffyverse and that other verse that isn't as well written over at IDW. (i'm just sayin) Oh and if you guys don't read the stuff over at Wheadonesque.com, you should. They're calling the spoiler even of the last few days. "Twilight-gate", har har.
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Joe
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Obsessive Paranoid Boob
"Gypsies are filthy people! We shall speak of zem no more!" *spits* -Ilona Costa Bianchi[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,786
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Post by Joe on Jan 12, 2010 15:47:10 GMT -5
I don't want The First to be involved anymore in Buffyverse. It was my least favorite big bad.
Glory>Angel>Spike/Drusilla>Mayor/Faith>Dark Willow>The Master>Trio>Adam>The First
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on Jan 12, 2010 17:11:23 GMT -5
wow! what incredible covers. i prefer the unmasked twilight cover. i kinda get the vibe that buffy is beside herself, perhaps at ends with the cast in the northern hemisphere of the cover. i must say that this cover is much better than the #34 covers. i think this cover expresses a lot more emotion/drama, and will have all the dirt we're looking for.
i'm curious what jeanty's cover will be.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 12, 2010 18:53:39 GMT -5
But why would Joss reuse Angel as a big bad again , thats pointless. Except not, though. Angelus was the big bad. Angel, the ensouled hero, Buffy's true love? Not so much ever. This is new ground, and it changes everything. What would the emotional significance be, though? [/spoiler][/quote] Eh. That was done, with a few more uber vamps and a few less threats of magic loss, and it was called Season Seven. I truly can't see a way Joss would blatantly rehash a plot. Plus, Scott Allie is admitting that it's Angel. If it's the First now (not to say that that's a possibility), then there would be an outcry from the fandom. It'd just be so lame.
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collex
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 131
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Post by collex on Jan 12, 2010 22:04:43 GMT -5
In my mind if Buffy actually has an arch-enemy it is THE FIRST. That evil crapisaur has tried to take our girl down twice to no avail. You know, monday morning I had decided to write in the buffy foruma thread discussing who would be the Joker to Buffy's Batman, the Green Goblin to her Spider-man's, the Lex Luthor to her Superman's. But then this news showed up and I gave up. I gave up because I didn't need to defend my point anymore. I was going to say Angel(us) was his Big Bad, because his simple existence prevented Buffy to achieve perfect hapiness in life. Even when Angel is ensouled, he is a constant torn in her side. And when Angelus is "active", he is hard to kill, because she can't bring herself to do it. Now that Angel is Twilight, Angel(us) is her nemesis, it's obvious. So, I'm wondering, why do you think it's the first? Angel(us) might not be as poweful, be certainly did ruin her life much more.
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Tea - Total
Bad Ass Wicca
?The hardest thing in this world is to ...live in it....? [Mo0:4]
Posts: 2,118
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Post by Tea - Total on Jan 13, 2010 3:12:59 GMT -5
But why would Joss reuse Angel as a big bad again , thats pointless. Except not, though. Angelus was the big bad. Angel, the ensouled hero, Buffy's true love? Not so much ever. This is new ground, and it changes everything. What would the emotional significance be, though? [/spoiler][/quote] Eh. That was done, with a few more uber vamps and a few less threats of magic loss, and it was called Season Seven. I truly can't see a way Joss would blatantly rehash a plot. Plus, Scott Allie is admitting that it's Angel. If it's the First now (not to say that that's a possibility), then there would be an outcry from the fandom. It'd just be so lame.[/quote] You realize that Buffy emotions significance would be Angel, her true love, so i can see it happen. Angel is Buffy's lover which can easily effect her inner emotion, the first true nature of power which lies in its ability to deceive, torment and manipulate, which would be Angel deceiving Buffy.
I am only saying this theory because they were to stupid putting the spoiler on the page, so it makes me wonder its not Angel. Joss is not that dumb of throwing the evidences of the true identity like that.
Plus the first isn't destroyed it cant be destroy , and its power is to manipulate others around them. Plus explain the super strength and the flying. The first can also merge with certain beings, imbuing them with superhuman strength, stamina and durability, so it could happen that the first give him the power, so that could explain his power and strength and the abilities to fly, which the first did to Caleb.
Its my theory lol, i just want the first to be better and bigger.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Jan 14, 2010 12:37:31 GMT -5
I'm beginning to see the outlines of how Season 8 could end. Here's one of them. I just hope this doesn't happen. If Twilight as Angel is ultimately the First, then it's possible Willow decides to sacrifice herself to save Angel by having the First take control of her body thereby making Willow the ultimate Big Bad.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 14, 2010 15:37:38 GMT -5
I think that Betta George is really Twilight, and that he's using his psychic powers to make himself APPEAR as Angel to everyone else. So when dorothyfan's theory comes true, Willow is ACTUALLY going to be Betta George, WHICH WAS FORESHADOWED IN #26 when Willow was carrying Buffy WHO LOOKED LIKE A FISH.
Bam.
That is how Season Eight is going to end. Willow is a big bad fish. Like Gyarados.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 14, 2010 15:51:11 GMT -5
I think that Betta George is really Twilight, and that he's using his psychic powers to make himself APPEAR as Angel to everyone else. So when dorothyfan's theory comes true, Willow is ACTUALLY going to be Betta George, WHICH WAS FORESHADOWED IN #26 when Willow was carrying Buffy WHO LOOKED LIKE A FISH. Bam. That is how Season Eight is going to end. Willow is a big bad fish. Like Gyarados. That would make as much sense as Angel being Twilight.
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Jan 14, 2010 15:56:42 GMT -5
I think that Betta George is really Twilight, and that he's using his psychic powers to make himself APPEAR as Angel to everyone else. So when dorothyfan's theory comes true, Willow is ACTUALLY going to be Betta George, WHICH WAS FORESHADOWED IN #26 when Willow was carrying Buffy WHO LOOKED LIKE A FISH. Bam. That is how Season Eight is going to end. Willow is a big bad fish. Like Gyarados. Lol that'd please me! I love Betta George!
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 14, 2010 16:02:09 GMT -5
That would make as much sense as Angel being Twilight. I so don't get this mentality. Angel is probably my favorite character after Wesley. I like him better than any of the Buffy characters. He's just so compelling, and I care so, so much about his hero's story. And yet, Joss Whedon makes him Twilight. And yet, I trust him. There is no way to know the context of this. Trust Joss. He gave us so many hours of brilliant, beautiful entertainment. Some of Season Eight has been off, yes, he's still our Joss. His last issue was brilliant. I'd say we should trust him enough to not make judgment before we see how this plays out.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 14, 2010 16:49:50 GMT -5
I trust Joss completely to make the story "make sense" in the end, in the sense of having a chain of cause and effect that is plausible.
I guess I trust him to make it plausible how Angel would put aside everything we know about him, his motivations, and his personality to explain how he could have come to this point, and so quickly.
I don't trust that Joss will leave Angel a character that I can ever see as a "hero" again, either now or in the past, or that I'll ever be able to watch an episode of "Angel" again without it feeling like broken glass in my mouth. Because we know what he's done this season. There's no taking that back.
And I don't trust that Joss and I will see eye to eye when it comes to the moral evaluation of Angel's actions this season. As far as I'm concerned, unless Joss lamely resorts once again to the plot device of having Angel sans his free will, the things he's done can't be anything but evil. No matter the excuse, no matter the lame appeals to "Greater Good" (i.e., killing innocent people can serve good if you think you have a good enough excuse.)
It's the nagging threat of that "greater good" excuse that most threatens to ruin the season (and Angel, all the way back down the line) for me forever. Especially considering the utter lack of regret, disquiet or hesitation he has displayed regarding these actions.
It's not that I don't trust Joss to be a good storyteller. It's that I'm afraid I will fundamentally disagree with the premise of the story and the excuses we get (if any) to explain how Angel could do these things and yet not be an irredeemable villain.
I'd hate for "All you ever were was a monster" to be Angel's epitaph, but I'd hate it even more if I end up thinking that and Joss doesn't.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 14, 2010 16:56:48 GMT -5
I can't see Joss doing that to the character. If that's how it plays out, I'll be heartbroken, and I'll likely weep daily like Season Five Wesley, but I think Joss is going to surprise us all. 'Cause man, is he good at that. Just ask Wash. OH WAIT, YOU CAN'T.
Oh, Wash. That still burns me.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 14, 2010 17:13:14 GMT -5
I can't see Joss doing that to the character. If that's how it plays out, I'll be heartbroken, and I'll likely weep daily like Season Five Wesley, but I think Joss is going to surprise us all. 'Cause man, is he good at that. Just ask Wash. OH WAIT, YOU CAN'T. Oh, Wash. That still burns me. Me too. It's the only time I ever thought Joss killed a character for no reason at all, just to milk a cheap emotional reaction. But at least Wash got to die as a good man, and I could still enjoy him in the TV episodes. This would be more like if Wash had suddenly channeled Alpha from "Dollhouse," cut Zoe's throat, raped Kaylee, drove Simon and River to commit suicide, laughed while doing it, and then turned around and explained how it's all good because, you know, he HAD to do those things to avert a Greater Evil. Yeah. I hope Joss doesn't do that with Angel.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 14, 2010 17:34:09 GMT -5
Me too. It's the only time I ever thought Joss killed a character for no reason at all, just to milk a cheap emotional reaction. But at least Wash got to die as a good man, and I could still enjoy him in the TV episodes. Oh no, I loved that he killed Wash. It makes Serenity tragic. Wash's death, and the scene that follows... so muted, so drenched in the shock and tragedy... was just perfect. Maybe one of my favorite movie scenes ever. I get goosebumps just thinking about it. Except, you don't know that, because we have zero context. It might be nothing like that. Future Andrew Crossett might look back and be all, "Present Andrew Crossett... well, actually PAST Andrew Crossett, because I live in the future... that is not how it is." Or, maybe he'll give you a pound, because you're right. There is just no way to know at all. Oh, same. I don't think he will. Or, if he does, I hope he makes it make sense. I hope he makes Angel redeemable. I uber think he will.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Jan 14, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
I think Joss is getting dangerously close to the "the ends justifies the means" argument that may be used in Angel's case. Unless there is a massive time line change that ONLY Willow can accomplish there is no way Angel can be redeemed for doing horrible deeds as Twilight.
Thinking about that cover showing Buffy kissing Twilight actually worries me. It says Buffy is willing to throw caution to the wind and kiss Angel knowing full well what he's done. This may be the "betrayal" of values that Buffy commits. If that's the case here...it's a poisonous message (in my opinion) to send. This is just my personal opinion and I hope Joss doesn't do this. I would feel left out if he goes ahead and does it.
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