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Post by Emmie on May 6, 2010 11:24:47 GMT -5
AGREE. I'm worried that Angel deciding to follow Buffy and help slay demons is supposed to handwave all he's done for the entirety of this season. And yeah, I don't want to believe that Joss would tell such a disingenuous story. Yet Meltzer says Angel is redeemed in #35. Maybe Meltzer just doesn't see it the way Joss does? I hope not. Angel was not redeemed in #35. No no no.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 6, 2010 11:36:04 GMT -5
Yet Meltzer says Angel is redeemed in #35. What he said exactly, was that Angel was redeemable after #35. I'm hoping he meant that the decisions Angel made in #35 now make it possible for him to be redeemed, rather than simply declaring that he has been already. That's what I hope he meant. In any case, the story is now back in the hands of The Man himself, who I hope knows his characters and his story well enough not to let us down.
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Post by wenxina on May 6, 2010 12:48:15 GMT -5
GAH! Just called my store, and their shipment has been delayed another day! This is awful... managing a Q&A (that's doing some pretty serious business at the moment, please continue to send in questions!) and not being able to ask any of my own that aren't influenced by the opinion of others.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 6, 2010 12:51:30 GMT -5
GAH! Just called my store, and their shipment has been delayed another day! This is awful... managing a Q&A (that's doing some pretty serious business at the moment, please continue to send in questions!) and not being able to ask any of my own that aren't influenced by the opinion of others. What's causing the delay? Is there another store you could get to? Maybe a Borders or Barnes & Noble?
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on May 6, 2010 13:05:29 GMT -5
i'm glad buffy's back, fighting for her "family." but angel's quick turn around disappoints me. this is a man (demon) who claims to have convictions. a guy who doesn't back down from what he thinks is right...
angel: hey buffy, lets ascend to a higher plane buffy: ok ----bufy and angel ascend buffy: oh wait, my family's in trouble. screw this place angel: but there's an all you can eat buffet, and a free refill on the soda buffy: too bad, i'm going back where i belong angel: ...fine, i guess i'll go too
what a push-over. he is not redeemed in my eyes. i really hope buffy stakes him now. and do we really NEED spike now? i know he's cool and all, but w/ buffy back and super-charged, he's going to be as much help as andrew. no offense, spike.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 6, 2010 13:19:19 GMT -5
i'm glad buffy's back, fighting for her "family." I am too, but I'm a little troubled by the fact that she specifically excludes "humanity" from the things she considers it her mission to fight for. Would she have let the rest of the world die if she knew her 10 or so closest friends were safe somewhere? For most people, it's perfectly normal to risk your life only for people who mean something to you. For the leader of the Slayers, however, it's problematic. It's also odd that she shows so little anger at being manipulated the way she was. Maybe she doesn't fully know yet what happened to her?
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on May 6, 2010 13:25:02 GMT -5
^i believe buffy would have fought for all of humanity. but she could see that this was never her family's task. it was always hers. she saw them in danger, and went like a good hero should.
i don't think she fully understands what's gone on either. but she knows there is trouble. i think she doesnt have the time to be upset. but she knows that there are 2 super-charged warriors ready to fight and leads angel back to earth.
i'm sure she's going to be very upset later. i hope she's a million times more upset than she is now with angel.
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Post by Emmie on May 6, 2010 13:34:09 GMT -5
Yet Meltzer says Angel is redeemed in #35. What he said exactly, was that Angel was redeemable after #35. I'm hoping he meant that the decisions Angel made in #35 now make it possible for him to be redeemed, rather than simply declaring that he has been already. That's what I hope he meant. In any case, the story is now back in the hands of The Man himself, who I hope knows his characters and his story well enough not to let us down. Here's the exact quote: Buffyfest: Guess we'll find out! After all that's happened in the Twilight arc, do you think that Angel is redeemable?
Brad Meltzer: After issue 35, yes. I believed Angel was redeemable before #35. What Meltzer implies is that something happened in #35 that made Angel redeemable. That before #35, he wasn't redeemable. I disagree. Angel's always been redeemable and nothing happened in #35 that redeemed what he's done in the past. In point of fact, he actually did worse things in #35 like explicitly urging Buffy to turn her back on humanity for their own happiness, to let the world burn. That's worse to me than Angel turning his back on the lawyers in the wine tasting room to be eaten by Darla and Dru. Because it's the ENTIRE PLANET and he's doing it not because he can't seem to care, but because he cares more about his own happiness so "screw the world." The one potential action that makes him redeemable is going back with Buffy to fight the demons, but that isn't something he gets to take credit for because the way the scene plays out, he does his best to convince Buffy to stay until she's already got her foot out of that dimensions door, then says "okay. Let's go." It's a facade of him taking up the mantle of hero, one he most certainly didn't earn. And it makes it appear he's only going because Buffy refuses to stay in their happy Twilight. So no, nothing that's happened after #35 makes him redeemable to me. He's always been redeemable, so I find it interesting that Meltzer thinks #35 makes a positive difference when in my mind, it's depicted Angel as still completely selfish and contradictory. Now, simply saying he'll be redeemed after #35 is something I accept and expect to be attempted. But the implication is that #35 is building him up to be redeemable and I say it's anything but.
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nmcil
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 54
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Post by nmcil on May 6, 2010 13:45:17 GMT -5
Yet Meltzer says Angel is redeemed in #35. What he said exactly, was that Angel was redeemable after #35. I'm hoping he meant that the decisions Angel made in #35 now make it possible for him to be redeemed, rather than simply declaring that he has been already. That's what I hope he meant. In any case, the story is now back in the hands of The Man himself, who I hope knows his characters and his story well enough not to let us down. The panel where Angel/Twangel is tells Buffy: after all these centuries--No more fighting--No more failing--No more dying. That is a broken man/vampire, not the mind of a strong leader and certainly not the mind of a Super Hero Rewarded Champion. Many readers speculate that this may be related to a Buffy Dreamspace - but it seems more to me like if Twilight is being created from deep within the mind's non waking realities, it would be more from Angel's. I think that Angel is the first level of attempt to control this war - and I would not be surprised if the Uber Powers at Play are simply using Angel "that boy" to create vessels for the underworld or a creature of immense powers to escape that realm/dimension. The term "that boy" is normally used to indicated total contempt for that said person.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 6, 2010 13:48:24 GMT -5
I believed Angel was redeemable before #35. What Meltzer implies is that something happened in #35 that made Angel redeemable. That before #35, he wasn't redeemable. I disagree. Angel's always been redeemable and nothing happened in #35 that redeemed what he's done in the past. But presumably the influence of Twilight is off him now, after he made the decision (for whatever reason) to reject it... and freed of that influence, he'll now see the true nature of his actions and want to make amends. He couldn't have done that before #35, with Twilight still riding him. I wonder if Buffy and Angel will lose their superpowers now that they've rejected Twilight? Angel better hope he's not standing anywhere sunny when that happens.
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Post by Giant Michael on May 6, 2010 13:53:14 GMT -5
Now, I will try to list my beef with issue 35. The problem might lie - as I suspect now - with Brad Meltzer's inability to write drama properly. He is good enough with comedy, that's why his first 2 issues if the Twilight arc were such a great success. He is decent when it comes to plotting out the details - for example Andrew's character really shone in this arc. But he is helpless when it comes to Big Picture, as his big story gets mostly lost among the trees of the 'windows dressings'. I'd actually disagree, I think this has been one of the best-executed arcs of the entire run. Each issue had had a distinct flavour, running a gamut of emotions but still keeping the light, peppy humour of the show. Think back to January, and remember what's been covered here - Buffy having 'super powers', why she had them, who Twilight is, Twilight's grand plan - I'd go so far as to say it's more than we've seen before. Is this great comic book writing? If it isn't, it's because the plot itself - the overall, over-arching plot - doesn't translate all that well to comics. We should be getting answers and new questions every month, not the psuedo-mystical gubbins camoflauged as 'intruige' - great big 'Long Live the Queen' demon, I'm looking at you - that has, frankly, made this story bloody difficult to read sometimes. This arc - and 'Retreat', actually - has skipped along at just the right pace, for me; a month is a long time to remember what happened in the last Buffy when you've got stuff to do, and I feel like Meltzer's the first arc-writer to really take that into account with his run. I've been hard on season eight in the past - it's still flawed, as a comic and as a continuation of the show - and if there is a season nine, I hope the cast list and plot are reduced to give both room to breathe. But season eight, for me, has gotten a hell of a lot better recently: since 'Retreat', I'd say, but this arc has been brilliant. I want to see how it ends. Loved Buffy in Nikki Wood's coat. Intruiged by Spike's, erm, spaceship.
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Joe
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Obsessive Paranoid Boob
"Gypsies are filthy people! We shall speak of zem no more!" *spits* -Ilona Costa Bianchi[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,786
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Post by Joe on May 6, 2010 14:28:28 GMT -5
I really don't know what to say. If Angel's actions throughout Season 8 are explained in the last arc, then I will have enjoyed this season. If not, I will be pissed. Angel's plan didn't even make sense.
Questions:
What was the point of Twangel's plan to "end all magic" if he was just leading the armies to lower casualties?
Why did Angel get his powers almost a year before Buffy?
Why did Buffy get her powers in "Retreat"? I thought she proved herself by sharing her power with the slayers, but she didn't get those powers then.
Why isn't Buffy upset when she's released from Twilight's thrall after having sex with Angel? If she was influenced by Twilight, then she would furious. Apparently she still feels "satisfied".
Bottom line: We need an explanation for all of Angel's actions this season. Now, please.
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Post by Emmie on May 6, 2010 14:33:16 GMT -5
I believed Angel was redeemable before #35. What Meltzer implies is that something happened in #35 that made Angel redeemable. That before #35, he wasn't redeemable. I disagree. Angel's always been redeemable and nothing happened in #35 that redeemed what he's done in the past. But presumably the influence of Twilight is off him now, after he made the decision (for whatever reason) to reject it... and freed of that influence, he'll now see the true nature of his actions and want to make amends. He couldn't have done that before #35, with Twilight still riding him. I wonder if Buffy and Angel will lose their superpowers now that they've rejected Twilight? Angel better hope he's not standing anywhere sunny when that happens. My emphasis remains on why he rejected it. It wasn't that he made this realization to reject it, nor that Buffy said something and he agreed, but that he agreed to follow her. He didn't reject Twilight because it's Twilight, he rejected it because Buffy was leaving and apparently his the primary reason for being in Twilight is contingent upon her being there too. Buffy rejected Twilight because she's a fireman when the floods roll back, so give her back her friends. Angel "let s go" of Twilight because Buffy wasn't going to stay for the party he'd planned. There wasn't enough agency written for Angel in this issue. The majority of his agency was devoted to espousing the wonders of the Twilight dimension, there was not enough showing him switching to the mindset of saving the world. He sees Buffy is leaving with or without him and says, "Okay. Let's go." That's why it reads as him just doing it 'cause Buffy is. And that's piss poor writing. My favorite comparison to what Twangel has done all season is that he's essentially UnLocke. Except when UnLocke violates free will, he's clearly in the wrong. I'm flummoxed by how easily people are forgiving Angel for what he's done when he hasn't even expressed remorse, an assertion to not do it again and worked to undo what he's perpetuated. A/C, I'm not even sure Twilight isn't still riding him. Because he doesn't reject it the way Buffy does, he just follows Buffy while ultimately it appears he'd still like to be in Twilight.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on May 6, 2010 14:38:09 GMT -5
Rape metaphor part 2: Surprise, You're Six Months Pregnant?! (Let's hope for all our sanity that's not it.)
I've had lots of time to reflect and think on things, so I will definitely be throwing out a big ol' Emmie-sized post as soon as I get the Hell-A outta this dorm room. I was wondering if I could posit a question for everybody though:
What do you think has happened between After the Fall and the beginning of Buffy Season Eight?
This is, of course, assuming Joss is still sticking with AtF as canon. I was wondering if you all (everybody!) could comment on that a bit. I think we're all in agreement that Angel is acting quite out of character, so I've been thinking about what could have happened between the end of AtF and the beginning of S8 to bring Angel into Twilight's cause (thrall?).
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 6, 2010 15:06:55 GMT -5
My emphasis remains on why he rejected it. It wasn't that he made this realization to reject it, nor that Buffy said something and he agreed, but that he agreed to follow her. He didn't reject Twilight because it's Twilight, he rejected it because Buffy was leaving and apparently his the primary reason for being in Twilight is contingent upon her being there too. But do you agree that redemption would have been out of the question if he'd decided not to follow Buffy, and remained all Twilight-y? He may or may not still be under the influence... it's hard to tell, because he really didn't reveal anything post-Twilight, except to say that he deserved Willow's anger. That is certainly a good sign, but I suppose it's possible he's still just biding his time to try and lure Buffy back to Dr. Seuss Land. The point is, with what happened in #35, redemption is possible for him. If he hadn't gone with Buffy, it wouldn't have been. It's like when he was Angelus... redemption wasn't possible for him until he got his soul back, and he really didn't want his soul back... but once he got it back, things could be dealt with. (Of course, on that occasion he paid for his crimes with 100 years in Hell, and he, as souled Angel, was probably less culpable for Angelus's actions than he is for Twilight's. Plus, Twangel has succeeded in bringing about far more widespread suffering than Angelus managed.)
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Post by wenxina on May 6, 2010 15:23:34 GMT -5
GAH! Just called my store, and their shipment has been delayed another day! This is awful... managing a Q&A (that's doing some pretty serious business at the moment, please continue to send in questions!) and not being able to ask any of my own that aren't influenced by the opinion of others. What's causing the delay? Is there another store you could get to? Maybe a Borders or Barnes & Noble? Apparently some flooding somewhere caused the delay. Have no clue where. There's a Barnes and Noble, but I doubt they have it... I've never really looked, partly because I've never had to look for another source. One of the first things I Googled when I moved here was where the nearest comic book store was.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 6, 2010 15:30:24 GMT -5
Apparently some flooding somewhere caused the delay. Have no clue where. There's a Barnes and Noble, but I doubt they have it... I've never really looked, partly because I've never had to look for another source. One of the first things I Googled when I moved here was where the nearest comic book store was. The Barnes & Noble near me carries Dark Horse's big licensed comics. (Star Wars, Terminator, Conan, Buffy). It's pretty much all they carry in monthly comics except for the big Marvel and DC titles. At my store, the issues are in the magazine section along with the manga magazines, but some stores have them on a spinner rack. ETA: COMICS PLUS 5425 SOUTH PADRE ISLAND DRIVE #145 MOORE PLAZA CORPUS CHRISTI, TX (361) 992-3616 TEXASTOYZ.COM 4040 WEBER RD (IN THE HAMLIN SHOPPING CENTER) (CORNER OF WEBER & STAPLES) CORPUS CHRISTI, TX (361) 854-8697 COLLECTORS PLANET 3517 S STAPLES CORPUS CHRISTI, TX (361) 334-7229 ...But if it's Diamond's shipping center where the delay is, then nobody is likely to have it.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on May 6, 2010 16:00:10 GMT -5
Hmm... starting to lean torwards the "this story sucks" camp a little. It's been months and we've not had any satisfying explantion for Angel's actions/backstory as Twilight, and I'm not sure we're going to get it. It's undermining his current change of heart, because I don't really trust him. It seems to just be getting handwaved as "the universe made him do it", and now he and Buffy are overcoming the universe's influence. Which might be a good story, but it's not being executed that clearly...
Hopefully Willow and Xander's confused attitudes toward Angel are an indication that there's still some explaining to do. I dunno, the writing feels sloppy. I'm especially disappointed by the characterisation of Angel. It doesn't feel like Joss is interested in him as his own character anymore, he's just using him as a plot device to motivate Buffy. Who cares if Angel's mission, family, and years of characterisation are thrown down the drain? As alexkrycek said, he's being written as a weak pushover here, not the three-dimensional champion we all know and love from Angel.
Highlight: Warren's sincere concern over Andrew. I've always championed the fact that he's a human being and therefore capable of good as well as evil. Nice to see another side to his character.
Lowlight: The Spike reveal. Oh, Spike flies a spaceship now? Well, why wouldn't he? His hands seem to have shrunk as well. What a ludicrous anti-climax.
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on May 6, 2010 16:17:59 GMT -5
Highlight: Warren's sincere concern over Andrew. I've always championed the fact that he's a human being and therefore capable of good as well as evil. Nice to see another side to his character. Lowlight: The Spike reveal. Oh, Spike flies a spaceship now? Well, why wouldn't he? His hands seem to have shrunk as well. What a ludicrous anti-climax. i thought warren's concern for andrew was incredible. i just naturally associate the first (appearing as warren) with warren of the now. it's the best development of any character in this arc. and spike's reveal was lame. we all saw it coming. and it was anything BUT in typical spike fashion... and i think we all would prefer him crashing through on a motorcycle with a sword or axe. and if he could have brought another surprise guest with him, like dru, or the hamburgler.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on May 6, 2010 16:18:42 GMT -5
What's causing the delay? Is there another store you could get to? Maybe a Borders or Barnes & Noble? Apparently some flooding somewhere caused the delay. Have no clue where. There's a Barnes and Noble, but I doubt they have it... I've never really looked, partly because I've never had to look for another source. One of the first things I Googled when I moved here was where the nearest comic book store was. Maybe the flooding in Nashville? There were some bad storms last week, may have thrown shipping off a bit. I know Guild #2 didn't totally ship, Felicia (the Glorious and Most Magnificent... shut up, I do NOT have a crush ) Day tweeted about it.
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