Angel's Future (spoilers being discussed)

[Marcos]

Jan 12, 2010 22:09:50 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

Peeps- After the Fall is 100% Canon, no matter what your opinion is on the matter. It is not a personal choice of the reader, and the CBR article says nothing to "uncannonize" After the Fall. It is canon, end of story. After #17 and Spike ATF is debateable, but there's not debate about Angel:After the Fall.

Oh, sorry if it bothered u, but I was just delivering information. I just said what Joss said, with those words, on the CBR interview: After the Fall cannot be called season 6, because he wasn't running it as a producer. He didn't have the time. He handed the storyline to IDW, had a lunch with Bryan, and that was it. I know that it doesn't have to be a "season" to be canon, but Joss said that he didn't want it to be called season 6 because he wasn't involved with it as a producer. And if he said that, at least in my opinion, the canonity of it is not as written in stone as you suggest. It's my interpretation, sorry if it's not yours, but one thing for certain: it IS debatable.

And about the canonity of stories post-After the Fall, c'mon, there is no debate here. Don't bame me, it's on the interview.

[patxshand]

Jan 12, 2010 22:09:50 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

Peeps- After the Fall is 100% Canon, no matter what your opinion is on the matter. It is not a personal choice of the reader, and the CBR article says nothing to "uncannonize" After the Fall. It is canon, end of story. After #17 and Spike ATF is debateable, but there's not debate about Angel:After the Fall.

This.

Also, check out what Bill Williams has to say about this.

s the guy who writes the back-up in the ANGEL series, I thought I'd throw in a note. (That sound you hear is my editor flinching.)

For the moment, I'm not interested in asking what to me is the key question... [spoilers]Why is Dark Horse using a character that is licensed to another publisher? By the logic of "It's a Joss Whedon creation and he can use it where he wants" then when Kurt Busiek was writing Trinity, then why couldn't he use the Thunderbolts in the same story. The answer should be obvious.[/spoilers] Anyway avoiding that topic, I have a question for you about canon and fanfic.

Is every Batman story not created by Bob Kane considered fanfic? People were hired by the company with the ownership stake in the character and those creators wrote and drew stories for pay. The stories were published. People enjoyed them. Is that fanfic? And do you consider Frank Miller's Dark Knight fanfic? What about the movies?

The 'Smile Time' episode of the Angel television series was written by Joss Whedon and Ben Edlund. Is that half-canon compared to 'Conviction' which has Joss credited as the sole writer? 'Just Rewards' was written and directed by people other than Joss, it is canon? How much input does a showrunner have to have in a project to be considered canon?

As you can tell by my questions, it seems to me we are getting away from the central argument about entertaiment. For me, it boils down to the simple question about quality. Is the comic/ TV series any good? Do we like it?

The discussions about fanfic and canon seem to me to be a way to refuse to be entertained by a project. Isn't every project better when viewed with an open mind?

Bill Williams

Man, I dig that.

[jellymoff]

Jan 13, 2010 0:06:46 GMT -5 Marcos said:

Jan 12, 2010 22:09:50 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

Peeps- After the Fall is 100% Canon, no matter what your opinion is on the matter. It is not a personal choice of the reader, and the CBR article says nothing to "uncannonize" After the Fall. It is canon, end of story. After #17 and Spike ATF is debateable, but there's not debate about Angel:After the Fall.

Oh, sorry if it bothered u, but I was just delivering information. I just said what Joss said, with those words, on the CBR interview: After the Fall cannot be called season 6, because he wasn't running it as a producer. He didn't have the time. He handed the storyline to IDW, had a lunch with Bryan, and that was it. I know that it doesn't have to be a "season" to be canon, but Joss said that he didn't want it to be called season 6 because he wasn't involved with it as a producer. And if he said that, at least in my opinion, the canonity of it is not as written in stone as you suggest. It's my interpretation, sorry if it's not yours, but one thing for certain: it IS debatable.

And about the canonity of stories post-After the Fall, c'mon, there is no debate here. Don't bame me, it's on the interview.

Macros-I didn't call you out by name for a reason-You are not the only one with this opinion about canon and After the Fall, and I didn't want you to take my comments personally. This argument just really grinds my gears for some reason, so I apologize if I came off snarky.

My point is, that if you directly ask IDW or Brian Lynch, they will tell you that Joss Whedon has approved After the Fall as 100% canon. I would assume if Joss were asked the same question, he would also answer that it is canon. All the CBR article confirms is that ATF is not Season 6.

In turn, I am saying that canon is not a debate. At this point, i'ts soley up to Joss.

I also really like what Bill Williams said. Despite the canon argument, we should just enjoy good stories if they are good stories.

SPOILER: Click to show

I think we will find that anything in Buffy Season 8 will not contradict ATF

[Billie Erin]

Jan 13, 2010 1:08:04 GMT -5 patxshand said:

Jan 12, 2010 22:09:50 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

Peeps- After the Fall is 100% Canon, no matter what your opinion is on the matter. It is not a personal choice of the reader, and the CBR article says nothing to "uncannonize" After the Fall. It is canon, end of story. After #17 and Spike ATF is debateable, but there's not debate about Angel:After the Fall.

This.

Also, check out what Bill Williams has to say about this.

s the guy who writes the back-up in the ANGEL series, I thought I'd throw in a note. (That sound you hear is my editor flinching.)

For the moment, I'm not interested in asking what to me is the key question... [spoilers]Why is Dark Horse using a character that is licensed to another publisher? By the logic of "It's a Joss Whedon creation and he can use it where he wants" then when Kurt Busiek was writing Trinity, then why couldn't he use the Thunderbolts in the same story. The answer should be obvious.[/spoilers] Anyway avoiding that topic, I have a question for you about canon and fanfic.

Is every Batman story not created by Bob Kane considered fanfic? People were hired by the company with the ownership stake in the character and those creators wrote and drew stories for pay. The stories were published. People enjoyed them. Is that fanfic? And do you consider Frank Miller's Dark Knight fanfic? What about the movies?

The 'Smile Time' episode of the Angel television series was written by Joss Whedon and Ben Edlund. Is that half-canon compared to 'Conviction' which has Joss credited as the sole writer? 'Just Rewards' was written and directed by people other than Joss, it is canon? How much input does a showrunner have to have in a project to be considered canon?

As you can tell by my questions, it seems to me we are getting away from the central argument about entertaiment. For me, it boils down to the simple question about quality. Is the comic/ TV series any good? Do we like it?

The discussions about fanfic and canon seem to me to be a way to refuse to be entertained by a project. Isn't every project better when viewed with an open mind?

Bill Williams

Man, I dig that.

Buill Williams is right- in my eyes his work is definitely canon, it's true to the characters and IDW has the license to Angel- it gets to a point where characters like Joss's grow beyond the point of ownership

[neowhobaz]

I definetly agree with what Bill williams said, its a really smart way to look at things. I try to keep a very open mind in terms of Canon and even though I like to know what is and what isn't being really rigid in what your willing to except makes it so hard to enjoy the greatness of these comics, but again it is up to each person how they wanna take different material.

[angeliclestat]

jellymoff-

I 100% agree with you. These 'not Season 6' comments are being completely misconstrued and are being taken as ammo for those who say IDW's Angel is not canon.

If you read it carefully what Joss is saying is this:

Comics are different to TV. There are no "Seasons". However because Joss himself is running the Buffy comic like he ran the TV show (i.e. supervising everything while other writers fill in arcs, and writing some scripts himself) then he decided to call the Buffy comic "Season 8"
However he did not have the time to do the same for Angel. So it is not being run like a "season" but like a normal comic book - except in this case he gave the outline for the After the Fall story line and let another writer write the whole thing himself. It is still canon. Just not run like a "season" hence the "Not Season 6 comments". If it was like a aseaosn then it would have been run like the Buffy comic.



So people are using that as ammo..which really p*sses me off lol. Now Angel is being run like a normal comic - which is there is a 'bible' containing all past info on the storylines, and a new writer comes in and adds his ideas and furthers the story and when that writer goes another will come etc etc. The Buffy comic is spoiled in that it is being run like the TV, but that is the exception. Things are basically *never* done that way.

Doesnt mean Angel is any less vaild. In fact as far as I can see in the comic book world, it is perfectly valid.

[neowhobaz]

SPOILER: Click to show

After the new issue today (Angel #29) I could half heartedly say that its a possibility even though it wasn't planned, that because Angel could be made to see the world as full of sinners and evil people who'd use magic, vampire blood, etc to make the world an even darker, less good place, that he might do some as drastic as o say... put on a mask, attack slayers, all in an attempt to obliterate magic/demons and start fresh.

[juniorwatcher]

So, can I just ask everyone, do YOU accept everything that happens After, After the Fall as canon? Even though it isn't officially.

[Wyndam]

Aug 20, 2010 17:39:08 GMT -5 juniorwatcher said:

So, can I just ask everyone, do YOU accept everything that happens After, After the Fall as canon? Even though it isn't officially.

You can bring up that question in this thread here. This thread isn't really about Angel canon.

[neowhobaz]

So the future of Angel...or at least his future at IDW takes place in the future apparently. Any thoughts on what people think about Angel being ported to the future in the next arc?