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Post by joxerlives on Jan 17, 2010 17:54:32 GMT -5
ust got to CHOSEN on the Buffy rewatch on the Buffytube section of Slayalive so if you'd like a more detailed version of my reasoning please have a look at my season 7 episode reviews.
So, when Spike is burning up Buffy tells him that she loves him. And he replies that she doesn't but thanks for saying so. How do we interpret this?
First, that this is the truth, that Buffy does love Spike and he's wrong to tell her she's doesn't love him. But he does so because he's dying and this will help her move on.
Second; she knows he's dying, she tells him what he wants to hear. But he tells her that he knows she doesn't love him and he's ok with that.
Third; they're both lying to one another to spare their feelings
Personally I go for option two, William the Bloody, perceptive as ever knows that Buffy doesn't really love him even if she doesn't know herself. He tells her the truth as he cares for her a great deal and this will help her after he's gone What do you think?
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Randi Giles
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Post by Randi Giles on Jan 17, 2010 18:20:10 GMT -5
After continuously even to this day debating in my head what that scene meant to the both of them I have came up with a official answer. I truly believe that Buffy would never say I love you unless she means it. I mean all through season 6 and some of season 7 she flat out always had no problem saying that she didn't love. That was until I think mid-way through the season.(End of First Date, Touched and End of Days.) So, anyway yes I think she meant it. Although with Spike I think he actually thought that she was just saying that cause he was dying. Which I always thought sucked because I didn't want him to die thinking that, but then again the fact that he thought that made his death more noble and selfless. So I voted for the first one although from Spike POV its different.
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moondance
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Post by moondance on Jan 17, 2010 18:30:20 GMT -5
i've thought about it so much and i think i believe that she did love him, because she had no reason to lie. i don't think she'd say it just to make him feel better... maybe she said it thinking she didn't but once the words came out she realised it was true. spike i doubt believed her and thought she was saying it because its what he wanted to hear.
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gumgnome
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Post by gumgnome on Jan 18, 2010 8:08:45 GMT -5
This debate ends up being a bit like the part in "Catch-22" when the characters debate the difference between being in love and thinking that you're in love. I honestly don't think that either character is lying to ease the pain of the other, but neither am I convinced that she is in love with him. Rather, can there be some ambiguity about how the character's interpret their own emotions?
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Talkie Toaster
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Post by Talkie Toaster on Jan 18, 2010 8:25:48 GMT -5
personally i think buffy did love him but spike said what he did to spare himself (or maybe them both) the thought that they would never be together
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jan 18, 2010 10:13:16 GMT -5
I used to think she was just being nice, and Spike said that she didn't, because that's what he thought, that she was just being nice.
Then I heard that Joss said that in that moment Buffy was in love with Spike, so the questions remanining are (assuming that was a correct quote): How in love? She mentiones early in season 7 when talking to Willow that she used to love him "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike", so I guess it's not that new, and she didn't fall in love with him in Chosen, she did it earlier. (Btw, I think the writer(s) messed up, I mean who reveals that the main character is in love in that way? I assume the writer just assumed we all knew she had loved him, and added that line, without thinking. Nevertheless, it's canon now.)
But maybe Buffy wasn't in love with him then, when she said that line, she was fooling herself(I mean, considering how filthy she felt in season 6, maybe she needed to tell herself that she had loved him, and that's why she acted like that). It's really hard to tell when it happened.
Anyway, back on topic. I guess nothing is set in stone, every one can interpret Buffy's emotions on their own way without being wrong or completely right. But we do have Joss version, which is a very valid argument and I know believe that Buffy meant that she loved him when she said it.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jan 18, 2010 12:29:43 GMT -5
I think she genuinely meant what she said. Buffy is just not the type to lie to someone in that way. She loved him for all he had done to help her, and for sacrificing himself to save the world. So my answer: Yes, I very much think she meant it when she said she loved him. The emotion in that moment was all over her face, not an easy thing to fake. Now, don't get me wrong, I consider myself a Buffy/Angel lover first and foremost. It is no secret that there are many parts of the Buffy/Spike relationship I do not like. That being said, however, I still believe that Buffy loved Spike and he loved her in kind. When he denies it, I think this is an attempt to ease the pain for Buffy's sake.
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Post by Xander-Shaped Friend on Jan 18, 2010 19:37:48 GMT -5
I always thought it was a more of an importnant friend love you. I don't know if its because I couldn't believe it or just the way SMG said it. Even if she did mean it like love love, then I think she was just having trouble telling the difference between friend love and love love.
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Randi Giles
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Post by Randi Giles on Jan 18, 2010 20:37:59 GMT -5
She mentiones early in season 7 when talking to Willow that she used to love him "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike", so I guess it's not that new, and she didn't fall in love with him in Chosen, she did it earlier. (Btw, I think the writer(s) messed up, I mean who reveals that the main character is in love in that way? I assume the writer just assumed we all knew she had loved him, and added that line, without thinking. Nevertheless, it's canon now.) That's something I always wondered about. I mean they really did just slipped it in the and no one has really commented on it. I always wondered what Joss thought. It also could have been something that was just said by Buffy cause she was annoyed by the fact that no one thought she was over Spike.
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tkts
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Post by tkts on Jan 19, 2010 0:40:29 GMT -5
I can't go with any of the options, because I think neither was lying.
Buffy couldn't love Spike the way he wanted her to, but in that instant -- the Hellmouth crumbling around them, Spike about to sacrifice himself -- in that instant, I think she did love him. And I think his "No, you don't -- but thanks for saying it" was just as genuine.
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Post by joxerlives on Jan 19, 2010 3:44:12 GMT -5
I think that's as good a way as any to put it
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jan 19, 2010 6:17:31 GMT -5
She mentiones early in season 7 when talking to Willow that she used to love him "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike", so I guess it's not that new, and she didn't fall in love with him in Chosen, she did it earlier. (Btw, I think the writer(s) messed up, I mean who reveals that the main character is in love in that way? I assume the writer just assumed we all knew she had loved him, and added that line, without thinking. Nevertheless, it's canon now.) That's something I always wondered about. I mean they really did just slipped it in the and no one has really commented on it. I always wondered what Joss thought. It also could have been something that was just said by Buffy cause she was annoyed by the fact that no one thought she was over Spike. It's sucks that we can't know what all writers think of this(not just Joss, I mean he didn't do all the work, the Buffyverse is a combined effirt, with him as "the oss") of when Buffy feel in love. Of course, the writers might disagree with each other, and in case Joss says one date "that's when she feel in love" and everyone else says "no, it's that exact date", who should you believe? Maybe som writers doesn't agree with Joss on that Buffy ever loved Spike? It always comes down to individual interpretation, because after all, Buffy is now a three dimensional character, with enough backstory and "life" to be a seperate entity, that not even her creator can fully understand and know, even though Joss does dictate all the mayor things, and his opinion is the "best". For example, I heard that he said that there were no homoerotic sub-text between Faith and Buffy in season 3, but fans later made him re-think his stand, after being shown certain scenes, and he admitted there was something there. What I'm saying is; We can only guess exactly what Buffy felt at that moment. (I'm inclined to believe Joss when he said that she was in love with him tough.) I wonder if he ever said anything of "when" she feel in love.
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Post by dragonweaver on Jan 19, 2010 9:05:20 GMT -5
I answered yes Buffy meant it, but I don't think Spike was lying either.
Buffy obviously had grown to love and respect Spike. Whether it was on the same level as Angel can be debated, but the truth is Buffy wouldn't have confessed her love if she didn't mean it.
Then there is Spike. I think a part of him honestly doubted that she meant it. He had tried for so long to get her to love him and yet she never verbally reciprocated his feelings. Then suddenly, as he is about to die, she blurts out expressions of love. Spike most likely believed that she only said it to make him feel better. When you get used to rejection it's hard to take returned feelings at face value.
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gumgnome
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Post by gumgnome on Jan 20, 2010 8:10:39 GMT -5
It always comes down to individual interpretation, because after all, Buffy is now a three dimensional character, with enough backstory and "life" to be a seperate entity, that not even her creator can fully understand and know, even though Joss does dictate all the mayor things, and his opinion is the "best". For example, I heard that he said that there were no homoerotic sub-text between Faith and Buffy in season 3, but fans later made him re-think his stand, after being shown certain scenes, and he admitted there was something there. What I'm saying is; We can only guess exactly what Buffy felt at that moment. (I'm inclined to believe Joss when he said that she was in love with him tough.) I wonder if he ever said anything of "when" she feel in love. Why should Joss' opinion be the 'best'? I honestly think that the fans probably know more about Buffy than Joss does, simply because we watch it so damn much! Case in point is the blunder that was made when Warren was reintroduced in S8. Fans immediately pointed out that it couldn't technically happen because the First appeared as Warren in S7 and the rules were that the First could only appear as someone who was dead. The comic writers admitted that noone had thought of this, including Joss. So his opinion is hardly infallible. Your second point about homoeroticism in S3 also shows that he doesn't have total control over the creation. When you listen to S3 commentaries, it's pretty clear that Doug Petrie inserted lots of the lesbian vibes to Faith and Buffy because he wanted to ;D so if Joss didn't want them, he wasn't paying that much attention to what some of his core writers were doing.
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Talkie Toaster
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Post by Talkie Toaster on Jan 20, 2010 8:24:13 GMT -5
It always comes down to individual interpretation, because after all, Buffy is now a three dimensional character, with enough backstory and "life" to be a seperate entity, that not even her creator can fully understand and know, even though Joss does dictate all the mayor things, and his opinion is the "best". For example, I heard that he said that there were no homoerotic sub-text between Faith and Buffy in season 3, but fans later made him re-think his stand, after being shown certain scenes, and he admitted there was something there. What I'm saying is; We can only guess exactly what Buffy felt at that moment. (I'm inclined to believe Joss when he said that she was in love with him tough.) I wonder if he ever said anything of "when" she feel in love. Case in point is the blunder that was made when Warren was reintroduced in S8. Fans immediately pointed out that it couldn't technically happen because the First appeared as Warren in S7 and the rules were that the First could only appear as someone who was dead. Wait, i thought that the first could appear as anyone that had died we all know that Warren had died (for at least a small amount of time) when Willow had killed him therefore he (like Buffy) could be used by the first (that was always my take on it).
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sire
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Post by sire on Jan 20, 2010 9:36:32 GMT -5
Correct. Although i think Joss also admitted that he totally glossed over that, which, bad joss, but hey it can be easily fan wanked and retconed so whoop. I voted for the second option. I dont believe Buffy was ever REALLY in love with Spike, not in the way he loved her. In that moment perhaps she loved him, im sure she loved him from his very moving speech he gives her in empty places (was it emplty places?) But i do not believe Buffy was ever IN love with spike. poor spike.
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cutiepatootie
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Post by cutiepatootie on Jan 20, 2010 14:07:36 GMT -5
I think that Buffy desperately wanted to love Spike, but it just wasn't there. So she told him that she loved him, knowing that it was the one thing he wanted to hear. And you know, I'm pretty sure the whole giant light shooting out of him kinda spurred her into action also.
So perhaps in that moment she loved him, as I'm sure many people have felt a surge of affection for each other when they do something selfless or of equally epic proportions.
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Zombierella
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Post by Zombierella on Jan 20, 2010 15:02:11 GMT -5
I think Buffy found herself falling in love with Spike. Buffy had feelings for Spike before he even got a soul, So having him come back with all these feelings of guilt and remorse must have been so difficult for her. This was not something Buffy was expecting. The things that Spike has said and done for Buffy since being re-ensouled has proven worthy of her trust and her love.
Spike's love for Buffy was an obsession. A sick, twisted obsession. But when he got his soul..this was no longer so. He was able to truly feel for her..his love for her was real and it was pure...and there is no way that Buffy didn't see that.
So in my opinion..when Buffy said "I Love You" to Spike..She truly meant it.
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Jan 21, 2010 12:12:03 GMT -5
Do I think she was in love with him? No. Do I think she loved him? Maybe. I definatly don't think she will ever care for Spike how he wants her to.
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Post by Inappropriate Starches on Feb 22, 2010 1:12:24 GMT -5
After continuously even to this day debating in my head what that scene meant to the both of them I have came up with a official answer. I truly believe that Buffy would never say I love you unless she means it. I mean all through season 6 and some of season 7 she flat out always had no problem saying that she didn't love. That was until I think mid-way through the season.(End of First Date, Touched and End of Days.) So, anyway yes I think she meant it. Although with Spike I think he actually thought that she was just saying that cause he was dying. Which I always thought sucked because I didn't want him to die thinking that, but then again the fact that he thought that made his death more noble and selfless. So I voted for the first one although from Spike POV its different. This is exactly to a tee (tea? t?) how I feel about the situation. I did struggle with it, but Buffy just doesn't throw the L word around. Actually she more often avoids even if she feels it. Therefore to me it wouldn't make sense that she would say it if she didn't mean, even if he was dying, it's not like she wouldn't be able to think of anythign else to say that was true yet still comforting. I also agree that I think he didn't really believe her, I think he wanted to but he didn't. A part of me likes the idea that she said it so she could move on but just because it makes me sad that Spike would die and not know she is telling the truth, however if I'm being honest with myself, he didn't believe her.
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