|
Post by wenxina on Jul 7, 2010 7:31:59 GMT -5
The blank speech bubble in space is as much a truism as it is a sight gag. Anyone with any understanding of basic science should get it. So for me, it wasn't so much funny as it was a "Well, at least they got the physics of sound waves right". If you're already out of the moment, the entire thing doesn't read true. But if you're still in it, the issue becomes a melding of "Where the Wild Things Are" and "Smashed".
As for needing the actors to ground the moment, I can see that being important. Which is why it still works for me. Because I essentially have the cast doing reps in my head when I read. And #34 brought the human drama. Giles finally coming clean. Giles plotting to potentially kill Buffy. Buffy and Angel destroying the world in their oblivious sexacapades. And by your definition of what accounts for human drama, there's plenty of that in #35 too. Especially in the discourse between Angel and Buffy. It's all about choices here. Why Angel's making the choices he is... well, perhaps we haven't seen the last of it (I hope not, and that page of the #36 preview supports that).
The last couple of arcs have largely reflected the plotting turmoil. Remember when we were going to run into #41? That uncertainty suggested that things weren't quite plotted out clearly, and thus, things got bloated. "Retreat" wasn't as streamlined as it needed to be. Certain beats that needed to be covered never made it, because of the pacing, and ended up in "Turbulence" instead, which was Joss attempt to reign things back in. And he gets it... sure there are three rampaging goddesses, but the meat is the dialogue between Xander and Buffy. Joss knows his audience, serves them their meat and potatoes (or tofurkey). And the goddesses... pfft... afterthought. Kinda like Doc being all badass, easily defeating Spike on top of the tower, only to have Buffy push him off as if he were a mild annoyance.
|
|
Dorotea
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 145
|
Post by Dorotea on Jul 7, 2010 11:42:40 GMT -5
Just to re-iterate here - the Goddesses should be Tara's in a sense that they should be the points of focus for meditation - otherwise the entire aspect of Bay talking about being able to pass their 'wolf-magic' into Earth ( and in reality feeding their anxieties and powers) to the Bodhisattvas) does not make much sense. Plus Bay talks all the time about mixing old Tibetan religion ( elder goddesses) with Buddhism, of which Bodhisattvas are the main aspect. This is the only way the entire 'Buffy needs to be pushed to become what she is and ' to turn her sword upon herself' - in a spiritual sense - works for me. She indeed turns her sword (her powers of a Slayer )onto herself - ie gives feeds them up to the divine focus to receive the power back from the Universe thousandfold - once her spiritual transformation (transmuting anger into positive energy and cleansing spiritual channels ) is complete. Mind that here is an interesting parallel with Willow - who was supposed to be going to Tibet to 'learn astral projection ' but somehow Willow never achieved that level of clarity - thus in the end Willow simply receives her witchy powers back as a result of Twilight opening backslash. Thus Willow cannot defeat the Goddesses on her own.
And , btw, the Tara/s connection is only part of the Retreat arc greatness, IMHO. We have not even touched the issue in which Andrew ( being secretly an agent for Spike) tries to push his 'spy amongst us' agenda on Giles ( who I suspect has much more to hide than we were told so far). We also have the whole Willow zenith and nadir of first deciding that ordinary life is worth giving up magic then almost immediately reverting and thus fulfilling the Dark Future Willow upcoming transformation - although I have my suspicions as to why this is happening - and Oz's newly found capacity to live normal life will play a role in future events, I am certain.
Plus the entire plot of Buffy to learn how to be ordinary human - only to be pushed into godhood - indeed the Retreat arc is greatly under appreciated and is absolutely crucial to the resolution of the entire season.
Although I agree - it could have been executed better, with cleaner , more streamlined plot-lines and less messiness ( like Monroe's would be killing that was quickly retconned). Still, there were amazing moments and they do compensate ( to yours truly) all the plot kinks and spaghetti-ness.
As for the Twilight arc that followed - I absolutely agree with wenxina. Not much to add, except maybe to add that the drama is indeed overwhelming in that particular arc - as well as its sensuality and dark humor. My only beef with Meltzer at this point is that he went too far with his Easter Egg dress-ups and left some of the major plot lines hanging after overwhelming the reader with hints and too predictable caveouts ( like for example Andrew's 'this is ruining everything for me' remarks, or Andrew receiving mysterious phone calls - just before being knocked senseless by demon)
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Jul 7, 2010 12:59:16 GMT -5
Technically, the whole thing with taras and boddhisatvas are the by-product of the merging of older religions with Buddhism (mostly Tibetan and Hindu elements), and not an essential part of Buddhism in its native form. But, look, I understand your point. All the taras, goddesses/etc are just facets of the one universal truth. That has always been my understanding (again, raised nominally Buddhist, with my mom's patron goddess being Quan Yin, the goddess of mercy @ one of the many boddhisatvas). All that I'm saying is that in introducing three separate forms and facets, each form is distinct. So while enlightenment can be attained through any of them, the path through the blue tara is not the one, since the goddess that picked Buffy up was not Ekajati. Other than that, we're not really in any disagreement at all.
That said, I'm not sure if Twilight's little speech about having Buffy turning her own sword against her was anything more than "evil villain speak". He was talking to his minions at that point. But Angel really doesn't seem to know that much about Twilight. If he somehow knew about how Buffy's ascension would play out, he would have been waiting in Tibet for her, instead of trying to find her. How much he really knew will probably come up soon enough. From the preview page from #36, we know that he was told that he needed to be the focus of Buffy's anger, that she couldn't know, and that the emotion had to be pure.
Also, Willow already learned astral projection. She was technically dabbling with the astral plane as early as in S4 ("Who Are You?"), and as recent as "Turbulence", she was using it to communicate with the Scoobies while she was goddess hunting. The entire purpose of heading to Tibet this go around was to learn to suppress magic, not learn astral projection. Buffy's newfound power was apparently predestined from the moment she changed the rules in "Chosen". So it's not as if Buffy somehow learned more than Willow. Being a mere witch, albeit a very powerful one, apparently doesn't compare to being some kind of new species of god.
As for Andrew secretly being a spy for Spike... that's a pet theory, no?
And hey, I'm not saying "Do away with "Retreat"!" It's not my favorite arc, but only from the execution standpoint. Thematically, it was powerful.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 7, 2010 13:38:58 GMT -5
This is all very interesting, but I have a feeling it's much more esoteric than anything Joss is going for story-wise. I think the Buddhism depicted here is pretty much Comic Book Buddhism, just like the Wicca (in both the TV show and comic) is Comic Book Wicca. It's Buddhism by way of David Carradine and Yoda, just like Buffyverse Wicca is Wicca by way of Dungeons & Dragons and Harry Potter. I think the goddesses were just big, colorful monsters to fight. Touching Remati might have been what triggered Buffy's power-up, but I can't say why. Aside from the continuity errors, and the fact that large-scale battles feel out of place in a Buffy story, I didn't have much of a problem with the Retreat arc. It was the Twilight arc that kicked my ass, for reasons repeatedly stated. But I have hope that Joss will make it work. I don't say that I have faith, because I really don't do faith. (Although I would certainly do Faith. )
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Jul 7, 2010 14:28:57 GMT -5
@ac: Your conclusion about the significance of the goddesses is pretty much what I arrived at post-#31. Up until that point, given Jeanty's claim that Espenson had researched the goddesses quite extensively, I was hoping for a bit more than "big, colorful monsters to fight". (Although I would certainly do Faith. ) Psycho-Faith or Reformed-Faith? If the former, get the safeword. Just in case.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 7, 2010 14:39:52 GMT -5
Psycho-Faith or Reformed-Faith? If the former, get the safeword. Just in case. Reformed Faith. I'm not crazy. Psycho Faith didn't use safewords. Reformed Faith probably does, but you have to be the one to bring it up.
|
|
Dorotea
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 145
|
Post by Dorotea on Jul 8, 2010 0:53:19 GMT -5
That said, I'm not sure if Twilight's little speech about having Buffy turning her own sword against her was anything more than "evil villain speak". He was talking to his minions at that point. But Angel really doesn't seem to know that much about Twilight. If he somehow knew about how Buffy's ascension would play out, he would have been waiting in Tibet for her, instead of trying to find her. How much he really knew will probably come up soon enough. From the preview page from #36, we know that he was told that he needed to be the focus of Buffy's anger, that she couldn't know, and that the emotion had to be pure. I agree that Angel is mostly clueless through entire period of being Twilight as to what is it exactly he is supposed to push Buffy to do - except that he is 'taking her beyond fighting' or something to that account. But mind the repetition of 'focus her anger' theme. Bay also says that if you have any anger in you use it to summon the goddesses. And there is that transmutation of anger into positive energy thing about Buddhism that keeps me on my toes - and the shattered mirror motif of Jeanty's cover to the crucial issue - the mirror is shattered and the blue goddess is under it - kind of implies somebody was staring into the mirror-goddess image while meditating. But yeah, I agree this is a truckload of symbolism packed into supposedly simple story - but when was Buffy series not full of strange half-implied symbols and mystical hints? True. But when Angel calls Giles in S5 he is rebuked and told that Will is studying astral projection in Himalayas. It was a fun thing to bring up - maybe it is nothing though. And yes, I remember that Willow's first attempt to breach into astral plane was done with Tara in S4 - in a scene that looks suspiciously like what she is later doing with Kennedy in TOYL. A lot of characters are using tantric sex this season to breach into another planes. Yup. And it also begins to snow 'before' Buffy looks into the Blue Goddess eyes right 'after' Buffy orders to collect all the wounded soldiers - including the enemy ones - i.e performs an act of ultimate compassion, which probably convinces the Universe that she is ready and brings things into motion. But the Blue Goddess' touch - and supposed spiritual clearing of the channels to receive the power after transforming the anger into compassion is a cool turning point. Also, there is an argument that Joss implied Willow be the 'Mother-Earth Goddess', which I don't exactly take for granted. Also there is a reference by FDW in TOYL to the point that somebody more powerful than her opened that temporal rift. I think it all ties in nicely with the fact that Willow could not defeat the Goddesses on her own - but Buffy did it without blinking an eye. Yeah, lol, one of mine. See, I am especially amused by the fact that Andrew's ring tone is 'I am in love with an uptown girl' ( with all the implications of his latent gayness), while Spikes in AtF was 'The girl from Ipanema goes a-walking' - cute and poignant - if you check the lyrics for both songs. Plus that "I am totally team Spike ' comment, plus his 'I am the one with a big secret', plus his 'ruining everything' comment, plus... that Dualla rejecting Billy (who is now dead ) and was stuck with 'fat Lee' comment .. too many teasers to be just red herring - but then again - they might be just that. Yup. I am glad we came to an understanding. Myself, I see the messy execution too. But some people dismiss the arc as if it was a complete waste - it ain't so.
|
|
The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
|
Post by The Night Lord on Jul 8, 2010 1:08:28 GMT -5
So, Angel was supposed to focus Buffy's anger, huh? I thought he was just focusing her pleasure
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 8, 2010 7:28:53 GMT -5
Yup. And it also begins to snow 'before' Buffy looks into the Blue Goddess eyes right 'after' Buffy orders to collect all the wounded soldiers - including the enemy ones - i.e performs an act of ultimate compassion, which probably convinces the Universe that she is ready and brings things into motion. But the Blue Goddess' touch - and supposed spiritual clearing of the channels to receive the power after transforming the anger into compassion is a cool turning point. I think if one thing is clear about the Universe (or whatever is behind this), it's that "compassion" is not something it gives a shaggy rat's ass about. While we're speaking of eastern religion, Buffy right now is closest in function to the Hindu goddess Kali... the mother goddess who is also the killer goddess. Buffy's function is to murder her entire species in order to give birth to another. Buffy's compassion (for her friends, if not for humanity) is now helping her counteract what the Universe has planned for her. But compassion is certainly the last emotion it wants her to feel right now. It needs her to be selfish and heartless.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Jul 8, 2010 7:29:33 GMT -5
Anger, before the pleasure. To get her to her ascension, he had to focus her anger. The sex came after the ascension.
|
|
Dorotea
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 145
|
Post by Dorotea on Jul 8, 2010 8:36:04 GMT -5
I think if one thing is clear about the Universe (or whatever is behind this), it's that "compassion" is not something it gives a shaggy rat's ass about. Let's agree to disagree on that one. OK ? I prefer to reserve judgment on what is it Universe actually hopes to achieve with opening of Twilight until the end of the series - we were told that Buffy' powers came from the dead Slayers first, only to be told it was a red herring in 2 issues. We were led to believe DFW was Dru for two issues in a row. We were left to believe awful many things through the season - if I start listing all Joss misleads/red herrings through he last three years of S8 run I will run out of space. Duh. Kali is not capable of compassion according to any lore on her. And the Universe is many things, but it is not a killing machine. But I do enjoy ( in a perverse way) your enthusiasm and your emotional attachment to the idea of Universe's Big Badness. We shall see.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 8, 2010 9:00:19 GMT -5
Duh. Kali is not capable of compassion according to any lore on her. And the Universe is many things, but it is not a killing machine. But I do enjoy ( in a perverse way) your enthusiasm and your emotional attachment to the idea of Universe's Big Badness. We shall see. I don't actually believe "The Universe" is literally behind any of this, actually. I'm just using that as shorthand for "whatever the Big Bad really is, that Giles and Willow assume to be The Universe." The Universe is presumably not sentient, but whatever is causing this obviously is. And the Universe... or more specifically, Evolution... most certainly is a killing machine. Perhaps the ultimate killing machine.
|
|
Maggie
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 48
|
Post by Maggie on Jul 8, 2010 15:10:30 GMT -5
In all this speculation about the exact source of Buffy's power, it's worth reminding ourselves that Angel powered up first. In a Buffy-centric story that just seems weird to me, since one would think it is Buffy's uniqueness that matters, not Angel's. Anyway, that's a big reason why I find the whole thing puzzling.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Jul 8, 2010 15:47:43 GMT -5
I guess we may see why this is in #36, given that the one preview page we have so far seems to be quite exposition-heavy, and it does explain some of Angel's motives. September is really far away, no? Gah!
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Jul 8, 2010 18:25:33 GMT -5
Aside from the continuity errors, and the fact that large-scale battles feel out of place in a Buffy story, I didn't have much of a problem with the Retreat arc. It was the Twilight arc that kicked my ass, for reasons repeatedly stated. Word. I was able to make it through Retreat okay. It was Twilight that kicked my ass, also for reasons repeatedly stated. But in getting my ass kicked, I now go back and see some problems with Retreat that contributed to the perfect shitstorm to come. And one of those is the tone of the art.
|
|
|
Post by waitingtodie on Jul 12, 2010 15:47:59 GMT -5
Hey guys. i have no idea if this is correct but the buffy.wikia page lists this as the chen cover for last gleaming part 2. just thought i'd share, since i didn't see it here [/lurker post]
|
|
Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
|
Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jul 12, 2010 17:34:23 GMT -5
Hey guys. i have no idea if this is correct but the buffy.wikia page lists this as the chen cover for last gleaming part 2. just thought i'd share, since i didn't see it here [/lurker post] I posted a link back on page 3, but it was grouped with some other covers (including the previously-released Jeanty cover), so thanks for the single!
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Jul 12, 2010 17:47:28 GMT -5
Yeah, I've actually been crazy busy lately, so I've been waiting for the hi-res version before putting it up. But thanks for providing the cover for those still not in the know.
|
|
shslibrarian55
Common Vampire
Perspective Guy
For the safety of puppies and Christmas![Mo0:37]
Posts: 74
|
Post by shslibrarian55 on Jul 14, 2010 6:12:52 GMT -5
Yes. Yes. I also want to quickly say how much I love the Jo Chen covers. Every one of mine is a Jo Chen cover. I do think it's starting to get repetitive though with the colors and all (someone mentioned that somewhere on this forum), but it does provide a good sense of epicness and continuity. This single exposition is so...odd for a cover but I do like it
|
|
parabola
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 131
|
Post by parabola on Jul 14, 2010 8:36:56 GMT -5
Edit: I see DH now has the solicitation info posted on their own site ( here), and it can be revealed below: Spike and Buffy are finally reunited (*sigh*) and lucky him—he’s discovered the source of all her problems, and it’s not Angel. Now Buffy must revisit the place where love was indiscriminate, the Scoobies were formed, and Hell’s mouth was closed for good.
Joss Whedon and Georges Jeanty launch readers into the finale of Buffy Season Eight, promising more adventure, twists, and turns. Bonds are tested, lives altered, and oh!—the fate of humanity hangs in the balance. The issue is scheduled to arrive on Oct 6.
|
|