Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Feb 17, 2010 5:33:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the preview jellymoff *karmas*
I'm a little disappointed by this too in all honesty- I agree with kaleidoscope in that I believe that Spike's character has been exaggerated too far, and now is almost comcial. But at least they're heading in the right direction with Spike's dialouge, even if they've gone too far in said direction, so there's still hope
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Post by VampSlayer on Feb 17, 2010 13:49:09 GMT -5
Glad to see that I'm not the only one who was disappointed with the preview. I wasn't sure if the regeneration thing had been in the show. I thought it seemed out there, and it so was. Definitely not in the show. Vamp limbs do not grow back. -_- I enjoyed 28#, but 29# didn't impress me too much. And this preview doesn't help. Spike seemed so out of character, it's not even funny. A few of his 'bloody's didn't even fit correctly in the dialogue, imo. I'm beginning to think no other being can write these characters. (Besides Joss and Brian, of course! )
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KaileeA42
Innocent Bystander
I'm drowning in footwear!!! [Mo0:0]
Posts: 21
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Post by KaileeA42 on Feb 17, 2010 17:51:13 GMT -5
I got the issue, and I have to say, I haven't been this disappointed in a Buffyverse issue in a long time. Not since some of the later 'Retreat' stuff and 'Aftermath'. Ok, so 'Retreat' wasn't that long ago but still, at least it wasn't as OOC as this.
For one thing, as many others have noted, Spike was completely OOC. He's basically been turned into a one-dimensional comic relief character whose only purpose is to make the occasional sex joke or act stupid and impulsive. Or possibly, re-grow limbs for some odd reason. Spike is one of my all-time favorite Buffyverse characters, and seeing him written this poorly really grates me. I just hope that Joss ignores this mess and does him justice in his BTVS appearances. I really feel that his character has been on quite the steady decline since 'Chosen, although I loved having him in parts of Angel Season 5 he will always be a sort of Scoobie to me.
Also, WTH? What is with the Illyria plotline? Illyria suddenly wants to do it with Conner as part of a mating ritual??? Really? REALLY? Is that the absolute best plot-line they could come up with for such an interesting and unique character? Also, she sounded OOC too, her dialogue just struck me as un-llyrialike for the most part.
Angel also sounded off to me, honestly the only thing I liked about this comic was the artwork. The character likenesses are very good, although sometimes the panels seem a little flat, but mostly I'm really liking the artwork.
Overall I'd say: Characterization: 1/5 Story: 2/5 Art 3.9/5 I've decided to drop Angel, at least until a new writer comes on board, or Joss gets involved. The plots, continuity errors, and bad characterization just aren't worth the long drive to the closest comic shop and the money.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Feb 17, 2010 19:04:35 GMT -5
Alright, here are my thoughts. MAIN STORY Well, the plot is certainly a good idea... but man, Bill loves his dialogue way too much. The group scenes are improving, but they have no character. It's Bendis-speak all over again! Note to Bill: please watch Buffy S5 thru 7 and then write a short essay on why your characterization of Spike is terrible. Illyria: wow, her dialogue improved! I don't quite know what to make of her story yet, but we seem to be past the awkwardness of the past couple of issues and into a true post-Fred's-memories Illyria character. I do like the plot direction very much. And how weird/nifty that it lines up with what happened in Buffy re: Harmonic Divergence. Although it will probably play out better here in Angel (Buffy has more pressing issues on her mind at the moment). BACK-UP I want more. kthx. Overall, a pretty mediocre issue. Some good moments, and Williams/Messina continue to kick ass and take names in four pages, but still screwing up in some very key areas.
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Feb 18, 2010 8:12:32 GMT -5
I'm ecstatic that somebody's finally going to rescue Angel- the broken narrative between him and the rest of the team was getting a tad boring. I must say my favourite pairing for dialogues is Angel/Spike so I hope we see more of that later on
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 18, 2010 20:00:40 GMT -5
It's Bendis-speak all over again! Is that a reference to Brian Michael Bendis? Because I've always thought he wrote great dialogue. Sure, it's long-winded and very recognisable, but there's a lot stutters and tangents which make the characters sound natural, and not like they're reading a script. Willingham's characters all sound stilted and unnatural.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 18, 2010 20:18:50 GMT -5
Illyria: wow, her dialogue improved! I don't quite know what to make of her story yet, but we seem to be past the awkwardness of the past couple of issues and into a true post-Fred's-memories Illyria character. I felt the need to quibble here--Illyria isn't in a post-Fred's-memories state because she's always had Fred's memories. Illyria's been in a post-Fred's-memories state ever since she was resurrected; After the Fall didn't introduce this. What Illyria is now experiencing is a post-'how Wes and Spike view Fred' state. What she was given is another point of reference for how Fred's memories are viewed in a human context. Where as before, she only had her Old One demonic perspective of Fred's memories, actions and identity. Where Illyria the Old One would see Fred's actions as weak, Wes and Spike showed her to be strong and compassionate. She always had Fred's memories; now she also has human perspective if she wishes to adhere to it. Wes and Spike gave her a human and souled frame of reference. So instead of her having to verbalize "Is this wrong?" to Spike or Wes, she now has an internal Jiminy Cricket in her head as a guide.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Feb 18, 2010 22:52:58 GMT -5
Illyria: wow, her dialogue improved! I don't quite know what to make of her story yet, but we seem to be past the awkwardness of the past couple of issues and into a true post-Fred's-memories Illyria character. I felt the need to quibble here--Illyria isn't in a post-Fred's-memories state because she's always had Fred's memories. Illyria's been in a post-Fred's-memories state ever since she was resurrected; After the Fall didn't introduce this. What Illyria is now experiencing is a post-'how Wes and Spike view Fred' state. What she was given is another point of reference for how Fred's memories are viewed in a human context. Where as before, she only had her Old One demonic perspective of Fred's memories, actions and identity. Where Illyria the Old One would see Fred's actions as weak, Wes and Spike showed her to be strong and compassionate. She always had Fred's memories; now she also has human perspective if she wishes to adhere to it. Wes and Spike gave her a human and souled frame of reference. So instead of her having to verbalize "Is this wrong?" to Spike or Wes, she now has an internal Jiminy Cricket in her head as a guide. Good catch, Em - a small but very important distinction between the two. Still, my opinion is the same, which is that Illyria's dialogue is showing improvement, probably because she's outside of the group now. It's all the damn group shots, I'm telling ya... Yes. And I respectfully disagree. His recent work has shown improvement (particularly in Daredevil and Siege - WOW) and he has a good eye for plot, but I can't stand his dialogue. He either makes it sound like one monologue spoken over various characters, essentially de-characterizing everybody on the page, or he feels the need to reiterate a point over and over again ("He went over there?" "He went over there?" "I think he said he went over there." Why yes, he did go over there. Thank you for telling me five times over). It may work well for street-level characters, but superheroes need to be differentiated from their secret identities in some distinguishable way when it comes to how they speak. I don't need to be reminded that Spider-Man is, in fact, Peter Parker behind the mask - I want to hear Spider-Man throwing pop-culture references, being cocky, and only thinking one step forward instead of five or six. Willingham is having some similar issues here - besides mis-characterizing Spike completely, there's also the group scenes, which continue to be "this character's going to say one line, then that character's going to say one line, then that one, then that one, and somehow all of them are going to agree in the end anyway YAY!" instead of an organic discussion between team leaders. It's Bendis's approach to Avengers instead of Mignola's approach to B.P.R.D., and as I've already mentioned, I despise Bendis's dialogue (and Avengers is the worst offender). So yeah. I don't think Bendis writes good dialogue. And Willingham needs to step up his game or else go back to Fables, which is ACTUALLY a good series and not plagued with the issues that Angel currently has - but maybe I (and we) are biased because these characters have much greater causal history than the characters in Fables.
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Post by angeliclestat on Feb 19, 2010 14:34:56 GMT -5
Well I gotta say.....I pretty much enjoyed it. Yes not all the voices are right yet. Brian had been the only writer to get the voices right off the bat (and that includes Joss!), but if you go back over the course of the series there were plenty of lines the actors had to say which might not have been what we would have considered 'normal' for the characters...but because the actors were able to give them a good reading;they worked.
There are some things I dont like -Angel STILL in the mummybox! Come on - get him out of that and back into action, It's his title...let him be in it for God's sake. This has been a gripe of mine since the end of Aftermath. Apart from #26 and #27 Angel hasnt been at the forefront of his own comic. I think that will change from next month. -Gunn's cheeriness. Ya...there really needs to be a conversation re:Hell and VampGunn. Only Human was a good mini for delving into his feelings about that, but we now need to see the gangs reaction to it. There are some hints (Connor's nasty look to Gunn in #28, and Spike referring to him as a traitor)...but it needs more
On the plus side I love the way the plot is going. The way Innovation Lab's 'soul restoring' isn't working out like they thought gives me a happy:)...and this new ex-Watcher character. Very intrigued about where that's going to go! I can't wait to see how that aspect of the story develops.
Regarding Spike. I can understand where fans would have a problem...but personally I don't mind how he has been so far. I understand why fans would feel upset that Willingham isnt exploring that aspect of him, only concentrating on the superficial aspects, but some people enjoy that part and are not too bothered about the more romantic,hero part of Spike. All I can say is that to give it time, and put it down to him returning to the role of truthsayer and braggert for a while.
As for Illyria - could potentially be a great arc...or a very silly arc. Let's wait and see!
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Post by Darth_Yotho on Feb 20, 2010 12:57:25 GMT -5
So I'm hearing this issue's exact name is: "Immortality for Dummies: The Crown Prince Syndrome, Part 3 (The Trouble With Felicia)" (Issue #30)
Can anyone confirm?
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 20, 2010 14:54:25 GMT -5
This was a decent issue actually. About 6/10? The preview had put me off, but aside from the Spike-leg-dusting nonsense (which is not explained, and I'm putting it down to bad continuity) nothing is actually that bad. I was considering dropping the book but I think I'll stick with it for the time being. Characterisation is still stilted but the plot is interesting. I like this new character, Felica Valentine, the actress-turned-vampire (the fanboy in me wishes they'd reused Rebecca Lowell from "Eternity" but she's probably not famous anymore). At first, I thought this story was meshing excellently with Season Eight... seeing beloved celebrities transformed into benevolent vampires would definitely support the Harmony storyline. However, then Felicia murdered someone on live television, which again makes the public look like idiots for trusting vampires. Laura Kay Weathermill is also a cool addition to the series, nice to have a sexy ex-Watcher around ("I used to work for the betterment of mankind. Now I work for the betterment of my bank balance.") The team banter was a little better this issue... I'm loving James, he's the highlight of the book with his snide remarks. Liking Spike and Kate's (romantic?) chemistry, and Kate actually had some funny lines ("I swear I can actually feel the tumors growing when you go on like this!"). Dez didn't get a single line sadly, and George was written horribly... he's supposed to be the sarcastic everyman, not a bitchy encyclopedia. Gunn is still a bit of an elephant in the room. The Illyria story is intriquing: She wants to mate with Connor? Hah, the Cordy/Connor haters are going to love this! As others have said, it could be really good or really bad. Guess we'll see what happens. I liked her opening up to Angel while he's trapped in his bondage-cast... though I wasn't sure if she was supposed to be reading his mind telepathically, or just hearing his mumbling through the plaster. Me hopes the latter, but with exploding vampire legs, who the f*** knows. The art was pretty good... still not to my taste but perfectly inoffensive. The only complaint I have is Betta George... something very bizarre about a photorealistic fish pulling cartoony expressions. He looked a bit like Goofy/Jar Jar in one panel. Not good. And oh, I just remembered... the Eddie Hope story. Didn't read it at first, then read it later, and can't remember what happened in it. Boring, boring waste of pages. Yes. And I respectfully disagree. I'm mainly familar with Bendis from Ultimate Spider-Man (though I have caught some of New Avengers and other titles) and I've always thought the dialogue and characterisation were brilliant in that book. I do understand your points, they just don't bother me. I never really noticed the dialogue in Fables. Maybe it's because the characters are centuries-old immortals, it's natural for them to speak very posh and articulate. But in Angel it just feels out-of-place. So I'm hearing this issue's exact name is: "Immortality for Dummies: The Crown Prince Syndrome, Part 3 (The Trouble With Felicia)" (Issue #30)Can anyone confirm? I think it's supposed to be: Angel#28, "The Crown Prince Syndrome" #29, "Immortality for Dummies" #30, "The Trouble with Felicia" I don't think there's an arc title, just individual issue titles. That's the only way I can make sense of it.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Feb 20, 2010 15:44:04 GMT -5
Aye, Paul, and I realize Bendis has a lot of big fans. I'm just not one of them. I'm a fan of this. It makes sense for Bill to have the overall plot worked out, but all these titles being subtitles to something is hurting my brain.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 20, 2010 16:04:34 GMT -5
Aye, Paul, and I realize Bendis has a lot of big fans. I'm just not one of them. I wouldn't say I'm a big Bendis fan. I respect what he's done with the Avengers franchise (let's face it, they were irrelevant before he showed up) but New Avengers bored me to tears. Couldn't get into his Daredevil run either, even though I'm fond of the character. It's only Ultimate Spider-Man that wows me, tbh.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Feb 20, 2010 16:08:02 GMT -5
Aye, Paul, and I realize Bendis has a lot of big fans. I'm just not one of them. I wouldn't say I'm a big Bendis fan. I respect what he's done with the Avengers franchise (let's face it, they were irrelevant before he showed up) but New Avengers bored me to tears. Couldn't get into his Daredevil run either, even though I'm fond of the character. It's only Ultimate Spider-Man that wows me, tbh. I'm kind of a fan of his USM as well, but I confess I'm not a regular reader of it - just a few trades. I really respect his Daredevil run, especially in the context of what came after - Brubaker's run (I became a huge Brubaker fanboy after this), and now Andy Diggle's run. Daredevil hasn't been this good in a quite a while, at least that's what I'd argue.
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Post by VampSlayer on Feb 20, 2010 16:14:44 GMT -5
I'm not too sure about the Illyria story, but it could be promising. It's ironic, in a way; Connor found Illyria attractive in Season Five, and now Illyria wants to mate with him. It almost seems like foreshadowing, but that would have been impossible(Since this story line wasn't planned at the time.). Can't WAIT to see Connor's/Angel's reaction to what Illyria wants. I'm thinking 'mating' is differently for Illyria. Like, maybe she lays some type of eggs, or some crazy-ass way, idk. Illyria actually have sexual intercourse with a human seems unlikely, since she was a huge, ancient demon(Is...?). Plus, all of her insides were melted, correct? If Illyria's story is taken too out-of-canon, it may be a huge problem with the arc.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 21, 2010 2:04:30 GMT -5
Paul, I've gotta say I have a serious problem when a reviewer says the highlight of a licensed comic is an OC character (seriously, in a room filled with Spike and Gunn, James is the highlight??? Seriously???) who I wish didn't exist--that tells me that Willingham should be writing his own original series...
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 21, 2010 14:41:25 GMT -5
After the disappointing preview, I wasn't expecting much from this issue, but it surprised me. I rather enjoyed most of it. The scene with Spike's leg still doesn't make sense, although they do refer to some sort of magic twice, so I'm guessing that we are just supposed to assume that they have been using some sort of magic to heal post-battle wounds easier. It would have been nice to actually see it explained, but whatever, what's done is done. Spike's becoming too much of a horn dog, which isn't really what he is. Sure its an aspect of his character, but not all the time. I didn't like his idea about seducing Felicia, but I am looking forward to that encounter nonetheless. George's "dialogue" was also kind of weird, and I'd rather he just stick to Brian's series.
Other than those issues, I thought the rest was pretty good. Two interesting characters were introduced, Felicia and Laura Kay Weathermill. Both should provide some interesting encounters, and it has been a while since Angel has tangled with Watchers. The group dynamic was handled a lot better in this issue, and I enjoyed the banter. I agree with Paul that Willingham has actually turned James into a worthwhile character.
Illyria was also handled nicely this issue, she's growing and her chat with Angel was interesting. I don't know how I feel about her wanting to mate with Connor, but there aren't exactly any rules regarding Illyria, so I'll wait and see how that develops. I doubt Angel will want her anywhere near him in that regard anyway. It also wasn't explained how Illyria found Angel either. It feels like there were 2-3 pages missing from this issue which would have explained this mystery and the Spike's leg magic stuff.
I wasn't expecting much, but this turned out to be a decent issue. Denham's art continues to impress, especially those close-ups of Illyria.
And yeah, it looks like each issue has its own title. It's nice to finally put that mystery to bed.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 21, 2010 15:34:32 GMT -5
Paul, I've gotta say I have a serious problem when a reviewer says the highlight of a licensed comic is an OC character (seriously, in a room filled with Spike and Gunn, James is the highlight??? Seriously???) who I wish didn't exist--that tells me that Willingham should be writing his own original series... Whether you liked Aftermath or not, James is now a part of the Angel mythology. Why don't you want him to exist? There's nothing wrong with him as a concept, he just debuted in a mediocre story. James has made me laugh in all of Willingham's issues so far so I like the character. Surely it's better for writers to make him work, rather than just ignore him and hope the fans have short memories? Willingham is struggling to write the established characters, true, but I'm not going to hold that against his development of James - who is a valid member of Angel Investigations.
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Feb 21, 2010 15:56:12 GMT -5
So I'm hearing this issue's exact name is: "Immortality for Dummies: The Crown Prince Syndrome, Part 3 (The Trouble With Felicia)" (Issue #30)Can anyone confirm? I've got to say that is the stupidest comic issue name I've ever heard. For crying out loud- if the writers don't give this arc a definitive name soon I reckon we'll have to. Maybe "Who are you and wtf have you done with Spike?"
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cant
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 32
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Post by cant on Feb 21, 2010 16:27:38 GMT -5
Whether you liked Aftermath or not, James is now a part of the Angel mythology. Why don't you want him to exist? hi i know you dont say it to me but i want to explain it for myself .İ dont want james to be exiist because : Cheap bad angels (you know big winged guys not our main character ) stories (look at supernatural , legion and soo ) doesnt make me happy Angels world is strong and cruel there wasnt fighting angels everywhere ( we never saw anythin like that if powers got angels why they need champions ) you know thats the reason why slayer exist There is no one divine god in universe and we deffinetly know powers never care humans (look whole season 4 ) or can diffent them Also even that i m reading all the angel comic i know that post atf comics are non cononcial ( whedon nearly said that himself actually ) and such a big universal change (power got their own fighters and like ..) cant be accepted without whedon saying anything about that so here my reasons and thanks for reading them and sorry for my english
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