|
Post by Emmie on Mar 18, 2010 2:00:16 GMT -5
Looking forward to reading your review, Cam.
|
|
Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
|
Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Mar 18, 2010 8:33:50 GMT -5
OK, so I read it yesterday after I posted the title. Here's a quickie review: Definitely starting to improve. For the first time, not very many group scenes. Matter of fact, Team Angel is barely in this story at all. It's about half-and-half between TA fighting vamps on the streets (The Big Dustup is the name of what they're doing is called, they take to the streets to purge the city of vamps while looking for Angel) and the new set of characters and their shady business deals - and Angel and Illyria, who are still talking about bangin' Connor. With Connor, we start to dig into the mystery of this new army that's popped up to help him out. It's not the most intriguing plot point in the book (that would be the witch trying to fix the company's "vamps with souls" glitch, in my opinion), but it reminded me of what's going on in Daredevil currently so I got a kick out of it. I'm still uncomfortable with the way Bill is writing Illyria. There were more cringe-worthy lines in here than there were in the previous issue. I mean, I think I get what he's trying to do, but it's just not clicking for me right now. On the other hand, he IS starting to get the hang of Connor and Spike, which is good. Anyway, gotta commend Denham on the art here. There were a couple of panels where I was just like "wow". Definitely some great work here. And the final panel? Well, that's just what happens when a writer and an artist love each other VERY MUCH. And at the risk of sounding redundant - Bill Williams and David Messina knock another Eddie Hope story out of the park. The whole book was brewing up some mysteries for us, and the Eddie Hope story was no different. Very curious to see what happens next with him. Overall: this probably should have been established as status quo three issues ago... but better late than never.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Mar 18, 2010 13:37:51 GMT -5
So... verdict: If you aren't hooked yet, this won't do the trick either?
|
|
Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
|
Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Mar 18, 2010 14:20:58 GMT -5
So... verdict: If you aren't hooked yet, this won't do the trick either? It really depends. If you're a huge Illyria fan, jump ship now. I don't know what Bill's doing to her but chances are you won't like it. For everyone else... I'd give it a go. The last panel really IS a good one (trying not to spoil it for everyone, heh) and the REST of the book is actually pretty good. If you're looking for some kind of direction, though... yeah, sorry, I have no idea what's going to happen. I don't even know what this story is about yet. Bill really likes Connor though, and he's really got his voice down solid. Spike fans will appreciate the return to a more normal Spike, too. ...I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. But this is probably the last time the book will have a chance to hook you. If the plot just doesn't interest you, then it might be time to jump ship, because this issue was very plot-heavy.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Mar 18, 2010 17:04:32 GMT -5
Kinda jumped ship after "AtF", to be honest. Skipped "Aftermath", bought #23, bought the Dru two-parter, and then gave up. I lost interest after the series lost a specific vision.
|
|
neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 594
|
Post by neowhobaz on Mar 18, 2010 18:09:03 GMT -5
I feel like the resolution in this arc is gonna be quick and unexpected. We're past the halfway mark and it's still so muttered in gray . Are Connor's army gonna be Angel investigations new muscle? Do we see how the group came back together? I'm excited for the arc's conclusion even if it has been meh so far. The end of an arc, whethher the Arc is good or Bad is always a turning point for the overall story.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Mar 18, 2010 19:38:33 GMT -5
I'm surprised to hear that you liked Spike's role here, Cam. To me, he seems to have literally been bastardized. Sleeping with a character while still intending to torture her afterwards? All with the line that he wanted to bang a celebrity? Um what? That's just awful.
I miss Lynch. And Joss. Jesus. Spike's not a complete asshole, nor is he a playboy. He spent 100 plus years devoted to Drusilla. Then immediately got into a relationship with Harmony. Then fell for Buffy. He's a serial monogamizer not a stud.
Cam, or were you saying Willingham's gotten better with Spike's voice? Because that's just the surface layer of the characterization there. I still think he's reduced Spike's character to a caricature of evil!heartless!Spike, only even then Spike in canon had more heart than he does here. Spike's the one who could love devotedly while still being evil. So now that he has a soul, he's somehow acting worse towards women than when he was evil? Yeaaaaaaaaah, right. Spike's most important relationships are with women. The only woman who he didn't treat well or revere was Harmony, but even then he didn't treat her the way he's depicted in this issue.
Bad characterization here. Really not enjoying this. Has Pat reviewed this? *goes to check*
|
|
Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
|
Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Mar 18, 2010 21:32:54 GMT -5
Em, the reason I liked Spike this issue is more in comparison to what he's done so far in Willingham's run, which we all agree has been pretty bad with regards to this character. I did really surface-read the issue so I could give a quick rundown for the forum; another reading might give me better insight.
I think I've hit on the key to Willingham's consistent failure with these characters: his complete disregard for continuity. The reason Spike isn't Spike is because all of his character progress to date has been completely erased. Same with Gunn, as we've mentioned in other threads (Only Human has apparently been completely disregarded - thanks Bill, really great). Even Illyria is off. And only now does Angel bust out of his prison and get to play with the rest of his team?
I think it makes sense now why Bill chose to use the minor characters more in the early issues - because they aren't developed, he can write the mythology there and no one will notice/care. But now he's got the main cast doing important things in a book, and they're not allowed to be developed anymore? Is this how he writes Fables? Because if so, I don't know if I'll be buying any more of his books. It's silly how spotty he is with continuity. Angel easily had the best dialogue in the whole book, and it was, what, one little bit at the end?
The reason I liked Spike on surface-read is because, on the surface, it sounded like Spike. But that was Spike six years ago. Where's the newly-redeemed and ready to rumble Spike? (Oh yeah, Brian Lynch is writing him. In his own book.)
Sorry about all that raving; you're right, that IS a big gaping hole. Sleep deprivation no good for my analytical skills.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Mar 18, 2010 21:56:28 GMT -5
Cam, I don't even think it's Spike six years ago. When would Spike sleep with someone he later planned on torturing? Spike doesn't sleep with women to manipulate them for information (a cold and calculating move). He sleeps with women because he either loves them or wants sex. It's about emotion, not calculation completely removed emotion. And to put the cherry on top of it, he not only uses her but plans on torturing her after using her?
There's never been anything shown in canon that establishes Spike's character like this. It's actually really horrible. To equate it to a hypothetical, imagine Angelus sleeps with Buffy during Season 2 post-Innocence (her not knowing he's evil) to get information from her about the curse on his soul was lifted, then plans on torturing her afterwards for info.
Now I could see Spike seducing a woman to get her alone, then knocking her out and taking her off for information, and even threatening her. But banging her, rubbing it in her face that he only used her to get laid with a celebrity, then still planning on torturing her?
Willingham is writing Spike as a villain here. What's more, as a villain far worse than Spike was when he truly was evil (I mean, in terms of being manipulative and abusive versus straightforward evil).
*eye rolls*
But you're right that Willingham is completely disregarding character development in canon as well as canon mythos. He doesn't care about continuity.
|
|
Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
|
Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Mar 18, 2010 22:11:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I see what you mean Em. Spike isn't the manipulative type - he was always rather blunt and to the point compared to Angel/Angelus.
I MIGHT give him the benefit of the doubt if there's a plot reason for this... but the plot is all over the place right now, it's completely ridiculous. I'm just glad Angel's back and he'll be wanting his pants - and some answers - now.
Ugh, I really hate that this book is so bad now. Remember when Brian was writing Angel? Feels like so long ago...
|
|
nmcil
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 54
|
Post by nmcil on Mar 22, 2010 0:55:18 GMT -5
I don't even recognize this Spike from any part of the series - We saw Spike with Drusilla, Buffy, both women whom he loved and cherished - with Harmony, they both used each other for sex but he was with her in a relationship - not this I'll just used you for an hour's distraction while I get ready to kidnap you and torture you. He was harsh with her, but this in a period when he was most definitely taking out his anger and complete frustration on Harmony and before his character developed away from this cycle in his transformation journey. Willingham Spike is like all the character development never happened. And it's not like all the development did not continue in the AtF and all his time with IDW.
I have been more than happy to give the writer time to make the connection with Spike, but thus far I have not liked much of what he is doing with him. I mean really, this Spike is going to have a shag session with a newly turned vamp who is shown on a blood drenched bed - having just killed and fed from her victim. And we get the "let's find a different bed...." line.
I don't know about anyone else, but the entire scene is disgusting to me. And when did we ever see Spike care about the prestigious and the self-centered "beautiful people?" I suppose Willingham is making fun at all the "Spike is so hot" and "hot for him" nonsense that has followed the character - but I don't see how the readers are suppose to be connecting with this treatment.
The Spike I remember, and loved in the series and the previous comic books would have given her a good solid knock-out punch, tied her up, and taken her in for whatever questioning is needed. Why would Connor just assume that Spike is so incompetent and would be getting himself into trouble? Connor and Spike worked great together in LA Hell.
If someone can please tell me how this is suppose to be working as a story, wish you would clue me in. Spike in "heart briefs" and trussing up his victim similar to the mummy wrappings that Angel/Angelus is shown in when his own blood is being taken out of his body - we get it, but this Spike is sleazy and, IMO, very out of character from his fundamental transformation arc. And could they get anymore sexually suggestive with the ending panel showing Illyria and Angel/Angelus?
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on Mar 24, 2010 19:22:45 GMT -5
This was a better issue than last month's. Besides Spike's OOC characterization, I'm enjoying where the story is going. I actually thought Willingham had a better handle on Spike's dialogue in this issue, just the way he is acting is completely off. It needs to be fixed or Spike should just be written out and left for Brian to write properly, which we know he will.
Willingham is still paying a lot of attention to Connor, which is great. This prophecy storyline is interesting, especially about Connor possibly becoming stronger. We were still not given any answer for how Illyria found Angel in the first place, which doesn't mesh well with Connor and the rest of Team Angel leading a city wide vampire "clean up" in order to find some intel on where Angel is.
Regardless of that, I think Willingham has a good handle on Connor, Illyria and even Angel at this point. That last page was great (amazing work by Brian Denham), and my waning excitement because of this arc's glaring faults was renewed somewhat. I can't wait to see Angel actually starring again, and the story feels like it will finally kick into gear.
I'm really enjoying Williams' writing in the Eddie Hope backups, and while I am not all that excited about the Spike spin-off coming up (I'm just ready for Brian's series to start already), I am curious to see how Williams does with a full issue to work with.
|
|
nmcil
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 54
|
Post by nmcil on Mar 30, 2010 10:56:51 GMT -5
This was a better issue than last month's. Besides Spike's OOC characterization, I'm enjoying where the story is going. I actually thought Willingham had a better handle on Spike's dialogue in this issue, just the way he is acting is completely off. It needs to be fixed or Spike should just be written out and left for Brian to write properly, which we know he will. Willingham is still paying a lot of attention to Connor, which is great. This prophecy storyline is interesting, especially about Connor possibly becoming stronger. We were still not given any answer for how Illyria found Angel in the first place, which doesn't mesh well with Connor and the rest of Team Angel leading a city wide vampire "clean up" in order to find some intel on where Angel is. Regardless of that, I think Willingham has a good handle on Connor, Illyria and even Angel at this point. That last page was great (amazing work by Brian Denham), and my waning excitement because of this arc's glaring faults was renewed somewhat. I can't wait to see Angel actually starring again, and the story feels like it will finally kick into gear. I'm really enjoying Williams' writing in the Eddie Hope backups, and while I am not all that excited about the Spike spin-off coming up (I'm just ready for Brian's series to start already), I am curious to see how Williams does with a full issue to work with. The Illyria - Angel "moral compass" theme could actually be very interesting and a very good way to explore Angel's history and the social and cultural structures of human societies. Everything that she has said on the theme are excellent observations. I had very high hopes that this theme would continue, I hope that it does - I have always felt that Illyria was not utilized much as the obvious voice to explore how humans fashion their sense of reality.
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Mar 30, 2010 12:35:28 GMT -5
Regardless of that, I think Willingham has a good handle on Connor, Illyria and even Angel at this point. That last page was great (amazing work by Brian Denham), and my waning excitement because of this arc's glaring faults was renewed somewhat. I can't wait to see Angel actually starring again, and the story feels like it will finally kick into gear. I'm really enjoying Williams' writing in the Eddie Hope backups, and while I am not all that excited about the Spike spin-off coming up (I'm just ready for Brian's series to start already), I am curious to see how Williams does with a full issue to work with. Ya my enthusiasm has realy be reignited after this issue. That last page was fantastic. I like where the plot is going, and where AtF felt like the 'Angel movie', this does feel like the start of 'Season 6'. Its not perfect, but I think as Willingham gets a better handle on the characters it will all come together. As far as I can tell the people most vocal in their disapproval so far (and understandably so) are the Spike fans. Apart from that people seem to be more positive. And yes I am not sure why we need *another* Spike story before Brians (come on where is it!!!), I like Williams writing on the Eddie Hope back ups, and this should tie in nicely with the main series. ( Cant wait for the character to start interacting with Team AI - especially Angel:)),
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Mar 31, 2010 15:52:09 GMT -5
As far as I can tell the people most vocal in their disapproval so far (and understandably so) are the Spike fans. Apart from that people seem to be more positive. Sorry, but I do take issue with this. While I do qualify as a Spike fan, I also qualify as a Buffy fan, an Angel fan, a Connor fan, an Illyria fan, a Gunn fan, a good characterization fan, a continuity fan. So please, don't assume that disliking the direction of the story can be rubberstamped as "Oh, that's just what Spike fans think." Because it's really a lot more than that and it's a disservice to others to wave away concerns in this way. I'll add that I've seen more meaningful ensemble exchanges written in fanfic than I have written by Willingham. And of course, every scene on both TV shows that had all the cast in one room together. The focus on Spike's character is strong here because the FAIL is most egregious in his case. But please note there's also been much discussion of Illyria, the absence of Angel, the failure to maintain continuity and mythos, and Gunn's failure to maintain character development from AtF and Only Human (does Willingham even remember that Gunn was a vampire in AtF? His characterization doesn't seem to take it into account re: his demeanor). And really, I get that being negative gets old. I mean, I'd much rather be raving about the issue. I had way more fun raving about some of Lynch's work in Spike: After the Fall and the good bits (with some faltering, though) in Angel: After the Fall way back when.
|
|
The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
|
Post by The Night Lord on Apr 1, 2010 0:52:54 GMT -5
Well, imo, the issue wasn't too bad. Apart from the ooc-ness of Spike and Illyria, I was glad to see that Angel was free and looking for answers, so I am excited to see how that goes
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Apr 1, 2010 5:32:24 GMT -5
As far as I can tell the people most vocal in their disapproval so far (and understandably so) are the Spike fans. Apart from that people seem to be more positive. Sorry, but I do take issue with this. While I do qualify as a Spike fan, I also qualify as a Buffy fan, an Angel fan, a Connor fan, an Illyria fan, a Gunn fan, a good characterization fan, a continuity fan. So please, don't assume that disliking the direction of the story can be rubberstamped as "Oh, that's just what Spike fans think." Because it's really a lot more than that and it's a disservice to others to wave away concerns in this way. . Emmie - I wasnt directing that sentence at anyone in particular. I'm just saying how I see it. I am not complaining that Spike fans are complaining (if you get what I mean), I'm just saying that so far it is the die-hard Spike fans that have been *most* vocal in their complaints. On the IDW forum there is literally 11 pages of discussion about this issue, which is 90% about Spike - and even some people attacking Bill Williams (who occasionally posts there) for his characterisation of Spike in the upcoming mini WHICH THEY HAVN'T EVEN READ YET! Spike fans are nothing if not devoted;) And I get it...I really do. I dont understand what Willingham was going for when he wrote that scene, I can understand why Spike fans would be unhappy. But I've also read posts where people didnt mind that scene, and are liking the issue. Ya I know that. And I'm one of those people. I'm not totally happy with the comic at the moment. But if you re-read what I said, I didnt say that Spike fans were the ONLY ones complaining, but the ones that were MOST VOCAL. You cant deny that.
|
|
|
Post by kaleidoscope on Apr 2, 2010 8:02:56 GMT -5
And I get it...I really do. I dont understand what Willingham was going for when he wrote that scene, I can understand why Spike fans would be unhappy. But I've also read posts where people didnt mind that scene, and are liking the issue. I think that wierdly that Bill Willingham actually likes Spike and he was actually going for dark humour here. He's mostly used Spike for comedy 'leavening,' but in doing so he's caricaturing the character, imho and I'm not really getting the jokes. I'd like Spike out of this series asap, because I'm not sure whether I can deal with something this ugly again and keep supporting the series. I think that the people who didn't mind this scene, seem to be the minority. In fact, I'd say that having tazzed around the boards, there doesn't seem that many people talking about this issue at all, which is pretty worrying because I think Angel should have his own comics and it is pretty important for this series to succeed. Alot of focus is inevitably on Angel in series 8 at the moment and I believe that this and the oocness of some of the characters is hurting these comics.
|
|
Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
|
Post by Hallow Thorn on Apr 2, 2010 16:16:11 GMT -5
Spike's getting his own spin-off, he can't always be in the limelight lol.... or is it not that Spike’s playing ‘second class character’ but that he is not himself doing so? (don't know, waiting for the trade) Spike is one of the most developed and used character in the Buffverse, give me a rest before Brain really takes him to new grounds I think. How are the rest (Gunn, Connor, Angel, Kate ) holding up with Bill ?
|
|
Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
|
Post by Paul on Apr 2, 2010 17:23:24 GMT -5
I've been pretty optimistic about this run but even I have to admit... this was dire. I think it's worse than Aftermath at this point... while Aftermath had poor art and a mediocre story, the characterisation was nowhere near as bad as this. Illyria's dialogue is painfully awkward. She's so clueless and insecure... "Is that the correct term?" "I believe that's right?" Illyria might find humans confusing but she was never one to mince her words... she's always been very elegant and confidant in her speech. Here she's just portrayed as meek and stupid. The sycophantic "Officer Kate" thing is especially annoying. Sorry, I don't know what character Willingham thinks he's writing but it's not Illyria. The Spike characterisation was bad as well but people have already covered that so I won't repeat... once again, Willingham has a very superficial, misinformed understanding of the character. I hate how Spike took up half the issue as well... is his own ongoing and mini-series not enough for him? Willingham also seems to be making up his own vampire mythology as he goes along... limbs regenerate, being awake in the daylight weakens them, employees can invite them in, Superman-like speed... wtf?? Art was hit and miss again this issue. There were some great panels, especially of Spike who was very expressive. The last page with Angel was brilliant as well. However, there was an extremely awkward scene... the housekeeper looked weird and cartoony, which was out-of-place against Denham's otherwise photorealistic world. The fact that she and Spike were darting about like Roadrunner probably didn't help. Also, the three civilians who were annoying Connor looked strangely similar which was distracting. The story is still good and I'm a fan of this Weathermill character, who's quite intriquing. But the shoddy characterisation just undermines it all and makes it hard to care. However, I'm not going to get upset over it. Some people seem to be really offended that their favourite characters are being written like this, but you have to remember that this is non-canon aprocryphal material. It's a lot to ask for it to live up to the show, and it doesn't really matter if it doesn't. That's why I've been so forgiving of this and Aftermath. Just enjoy what you can and ignore what you can't.
|
|