|
Post by exogenesis1203 on Jan 31, 2010 9:46:01 GMT -5
gunned down the way Anya was sliced, and Derek Reese was taken out in T: SCC. Paul's scene really reminds me of Derek's death they are in fact really similar in many sense 1.both shows are near it's end 2.both of them are pretty much the most bad ass male character (I always think Paul>>>Anthony) 3.they both died because they are trying to save some girl 4.they both got shot in the head I'm getting more and more cold blooded watching these kind of death
|
|
The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
|
Post by The Girl In Question on Jan 31, 2010 21:29:41 GMT -5
Ugh. I watched it when it was on, but my two non-fan friends were over (I know, ew...) and we were preparing for an anime convention (for which we were the vendors). So I was completely distracted not only by working on stuff, but by them asking me questions every 5 seconds. So I missed so many moments (inluding Ballard's death scene, WTF!). I have to rewatch :/
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on Jan 31, 2010 23:58:03 GMT -5
Great finale. The only issues I had with it was the lame music/shootout prior to Paul's death, and the lack of Dominic, who is one of my favorite characters (he could have easily been traveling with Anthony, unless Reed couldn't be in it because of scheduling issues). I wish it could have been two hours, because I would have loved for some more interaction with Alpha. A few scenes could have breathed a bit more.
Other than that, just about perfect of a finale.
|
|
drusillacakes
Ensouled Vampire
Teacup Humans
Fond memories[Mo0:19]
Posts: 1,680
|
Post by drusillacakes on Feb 1, 2010 0:29:56 GMT -5
FINALLY watched it. Completely floored, and am a sobbing heap. I sort of made some mental notes that I'm gonna rehash right now... hope I remember everything... Like many of you, my issue of course is that the short run of the show means all these unanswered questions. Like for example, how did Adelle, Sierra, etc end up living on a farm/co-op? Adelle mentions these other "houses" and their crops. How'd they get there? I was disappointed that there was no appearance or mention of Mr. Dominick in Epitaph 2. I mean in Epitaph 1 he's escaped the Attic and has been out in the world and that was it. Would have liked to have known if he died or survived. Me too! No mention?!? This one is gonna haunt me. I can understand how Whiskey wouldn't have been mentioned since it seemed to me that she died in Epitaph One. That was my impression at least when the dollhouse filled with poisonous gas. The problem I have with the series finale is that there are just so many unanswered questions, like how was Alpha a good guy all of the sudden? I just can't help but wonder if the show had been able to go on for another season or two, is this still the way they would have ended? I know... I want to know how he came to be one of the good guys too. I think this was the first time that I really started to "get" Alpha. I like that Echo says that he's evolved, which is all fine and dandy, but how did he evolve? What prompted this? How did they go from mortal enemies to...friends? My favorite Alpha line is when he hugs Victor and says, "Victor! Why would someone do something so horrible to your face?" and Victor says, "Psycho." I : : And I like that Alpha seems to genuinely care that Paul had died, understood Echo was hurting and wanted to do something for her. That was just a huge 360 from psychotic stalker Alpha. And yeah, if anyone understands what Echo is going through, it would have to be Alpha, wouldn't it? What I didn't really get was where Alpha went when the pulse hit. He wasn't going to stay underground to avoid being wiped...right? I don't think I've ever respected Eliza Dushku more than when Echo realizes Paul is really gone and she's going to be alone. The chemistry between her and Dichen in that scene was so intense and natural. When Echo breaks down helps Priya realizes how much Victor/Tony loves her, and how lucky she is that he wasn't the one who died, I was a bawling, snifflely mess. (I'm re-watching this on Hulu again. and I'm starting to cry again. BIG SAD FACE) Topher's demise... ugh, so heartbreaking!!! So much to say! Pretty much every scene he was in, my heart was aching. Anytime Adelle tried to soothe him, especially when she realizes what Topher means when the device has to be set manually, and he says he doesn't want to cause anymore pain. And yeah, I also thought that scene reminded me of Spike's last scene in Chosen. A random continuation error... Echo's hair in the last scene, she has a gray streak, which I guess is to illustrate that she is 10 years older. It doesn't look like she has this in any other scene. I just thought that was weird, but I love the ending. I wonder what it's like to have the love of your life living inside your head? I think a lot of future fan-fic is going to explore this. In general I think this episode can be a platform for fans to fill in blanks. Of course, if FOX didn't suck so much, we wouldn't have to. Sorry if this was exceedingly long. I just didn't want to forget or miss anything. Ok, one more thing-- beginning credits.-- "Nate Dushku"-- is this Eliza's brother? I think he plays the bad guy who works for Harding. Is that right? In case anyone is looking for the song at the end, it's Lissie- Everywhere I Go. Beautiful song, and so fitting.
|
|
|
Post by Eric on Feb 1, 2010 0:47:45 GMT -5
FINALLY watched it. Completely floored, and am a sobbing heap. I sort of made some mental notes that I'm gonna rehash right now... hope I remember everything... Like many of you, my issue of course is that the short run of the show means all these unanswered questions. Like for example, how did Adelle, Sierra, etc end up living on a farm/co-op? Adelle mentions these other "houses" and their crops. How'd they get there? I was disappointed that there was no appearance or mention of Mr. Dominick in Epitaph 2. I mean in Epitaph 1 he's escaped the Attic and has been out in the world and that was it. Would have liked to have known if he died or survived. Me too! No mention?!? This one is gonna haunt me. I can understand how Whiskey wouldn't have been mentioned since it seemed to me that she died in Epitaph One. That was my impression at least when the dollhouse filled with poisonous gas. The problem I have with the series finale is that there are just so many unanswered questions, like how was Alpha a good guy all of the sudden? I just can't help but wonder if the show had been able to go on for another season or two, is this still the way they would have ended? I know... I want to know how he came to be one of the good guys too. I think this was the first time that I really started to "get" Alpha. I like that Echo says that he's evolved, which is all fine and dandy, but how did he evolve? What prompted this? How did they go from mortal enemies to...friends? My favorite Alpha line is when he hugs Victor and says, "Victor! Why would someone do something so horrible to your face?" and Victor says, "Psycho." I : : And I like that Alpha seems to genuinely care that Paul had died, understood Echo was hurting and wanted to do something for her. That was just a huge 360 from psychotic stalker Alpha. And yeah, if anyone understands what Echo is going through, it would have to be Alpha, wouldn't it? What I didn't really get was where Alpha went when the pulse hit. He wasn't going to stay underground to avoid being wiped...right? I don't think I've ever respected Eliza Dushku more than when Echo realizes Paul is really gone and she's going to be alone. The chemistry between her and Dichen in that scene was so intense and natural. When Echo breaks down helps Priya realizes how much Victor/Tony loves her, and how lucky she is that he wasn't the one who died, I was a bawling, snifflely mess. (I'm re-watching this on Hulu again. and I'm starting to cry again. BIG SAD FACE) Topher's demise... ugh, so heartbreaking!!! So much to say! Pretty much every scene he was in, my heart was aching. Anytime Adelle tried to soothe him, especially when she realizes what Topher means when the device has to be set manually, and he says he doesn't want to cause anymore pain. And yeah, I also thought that scene reminded me of Spike's last scene in Chosen. A random continuation error... Echo's hair in the last scene, she has a gray streak, which I guess is to illustrate that she is 10 years older. It doesn't look like she has this in any other scene. I just thought that was weird, but I love the ending. I wonder what it's like to have the love of your life living inside your head? I think a lot of future fan-fic is going to explore this. In general I think this episode can be a platform for fans to fill in blanks. Of course, if FOX didn't suck so much, we wouldn't have to. Sorry if this was exceedingly long. I just didn't want to forget or miss anything. Ok, one more thing-- beginning credits.-- "Nate Dushku"-- is this Eliza's brother? I think he plays the bad guy who works for Harding. Is that right? In case anyone is looking for the song at the end, it's Lissie- Everywhere I Go. Beautiful song, and so fitting. Dominic's scene in E1 was a flashback taking place somewhere between 2010 ("The Hollow Men") and 2019 ("Epitaph One"). Considering how pissed he was I doubt he would want to stick around Adelle and co. for several years. Echo said she doubted that Alpha would go back to the his original personality because he evolved just like she did, but he said he wanted to be alone just in case. (His original personality was a serial killer.) My theory is that is in the main timeline of the series (2009-2010) he was a doll who happened to be carrying many imprints at the same time, bouncing between them. Overtime, I think he developed a true personality like Echo and was able to keep all of the imprints in check. Also, Echo had the white streak in other scenes, it was just more noticeable in some than others. Yes, that was Eliza's brother. He played the body Clive Ambrose was currently inhabiting at the beginning of the episode along with the over weight Harding. I agree. That song was perfect. I've been listening to it on YouTube the past day or so. I was gonna download it on iTunes but I'm lazy.
|
|
drusillacakes
Ensouled Vampire
Teacup Humans
Fond memories[Mo0:19]
Posts: 1,680
|
Post by drusillacakes on Feb 1, 2010 1:06:34 GMT -5
Dominic's scene in E1 was a flashback taking place somewhere between 2010 ("The Hollow Men") and 2019 ("Epitaph One"). Considering how pissed he was I doubt he would want to stick around Adelle and co. for several years. You're right! I forgot about Mr. Dominic in Epitaph One. Should have watched that before I watched this. Still, some sort of mention about his whereabouts would've been nice though. Good call on the hair. They should've made it more distinctive though, because it was very hard to tell she had aged till that last scene.
|
|
|
Post by Eric on Feb 1, 2010 1:11:39 GMT -5
Good call on the hair. They should've made it more distinctive though, because it was very hard to tell she had aged till that last scene. They really should have. I loved the little Rogue streak in her hair, it was adorable. I wonder though, why not make Adelle's hair a little grey? Echo should've been in her mid to late 30's while Adelle would probably be over the hill.
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on Feb 1, 2010 2:23:18 GMT -5
I thought that was odd as well. Adelle was most likely pushing 50 if not already in her early-to-mid 50's by 2020, so her hair should have been given some gray. Ballard too, since he already had a few flecks in 2010 and would have a lot more 10 years later. Not a huge issue, but they obviously thought about it (Echo's gray streak), so why not follow through with everyone, or at least the older characters?
|
|
|
Post by henzINNIT on Feb 1, 2010 6:06:06 GMT -5
Blatently couldn't afford it, lol
|
|
drusillacakes
Ensouled Vampire
Teacup Humans
Fond memories[Mo0:19]
Posts: 1,680
|
Post by drusillacakes on Feb 1, 2010 12:35:56 GMT -5
Blatently couldn't afford it, lol Hair dye budget went to Hollow Men's CGI explosion? Ugh. Bad use of funds if I do say so. This ep is also the first time I've seen Adelle wear pants. Is it also the first time Romeo is introduced? Romeo, I hardly knew ye.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Feb 1, 2010 13:14:38 GMT -5
This ep is also the first time I've seen Adelle wear pants. False. She's at least worn pants in "A Spy in a House of Love"... when fencing. Looked very fetching in them too... with that corseted top. Don't remember about "Epitaph One", but perhaps... pants just seem more practical than a frock.
|
|
drusillacakes
Ensouled Vampire
Teacup Humans
Fond memories[Mo0:19]
Posts: 1,680
|
Post by drusillacakes on Feb 1, 2010 15:09:13 GMT -5
Skipping around Epitaph One, looking for pants. She does wear them in that episode. They look like the actives' pajama bottoms. Okay, well I guess Epitaph Two was the first time I've seen her in jeans.
|
|
darthrosenberg9
Potential Slayer
"You haven?t seen my drawer of inappropriate starches?"[Mo0:37]
Posts: 107
|
Post by darthrosenberg9 on Feb 1, 2010 18:11:20 GMT -5
I was going to quote, but I'm not sure how to quote three different comments....SO here goes: AndrewCrossett -- Topher rescued Whiskey/Saunders/Clyde 2.0 from Rossum in "The Hollow Men." As Paul runs out of the building there's a line about "I got Saunders out!" Plus, remember how much time passes between Boyd getting wiped and Boyd setting off the bomb. They have time to evacuate a whole building--why would they leave the one person they know behind? buffyfan21 -- Alpha is good in "Epitaph One" as well. In a flashback, we hear Echo/Caroline tell Whiskey/Saunders that she, Paul and Alpha designed the tech that made Safe Haven safe. I believe the exact exchange goes "And no one's been printed there?" "We have Alpha to thank for that." Wyndam -- I actually really enjoyed the "lame" fight scene. I love the moment before they open the back of the truck and you see everyone ready to strike and I LOVED the still shots used every time Echo/Caroline fired that crazy fire-gun she had. I can get behind Dominic leaving for good after being summonned by Adelle and (sadly) can get behind Whiskey dying from the gas ............but what REALLY bothers me is: 1) When did Adelle and Echo/Caroline have the falling out that leads to them being on different sides when DeWitt is holed up in the Dollhouse and Echo is designing Safe Haven? She says "Caroline" with such disgust in the scene between her and Dominic.....I can pretend Dominic would still ask "Which one's Caroline?" because I assume he only ever knew her as Echo....even though he got her from Tucson with Adelle, he was never very interested in the dolls as people. 2) If Priya went above and started the Actuals Movement and the Birthmarking process as "Epitaph One" and its commentary suggest, when did she meet up with the group again? She was not at the Dollhouse when Paul and Echo/Caroline come back to take everyone to Safe Haven. 3) WHY on Earth did Whiskey/Saunders stay at the Dollhouse when everyone went to Safe Haven? She was DEFINITELY not waiting for Boyd anymore because we know that she takes on the Claire persona again at least for the time when Adelle and the others are hiding in the Dollhouse. 4) WHO was in love with Boyd? Claire or Clyde? Both seem strange to me. The best I can figure, Boyd and Claire had an actual relationship as Boyd and Claire....Boyd somehow in their time together imprinted Claire as a sleeper. He knew he could leave and still have a hand in controlling if and when the put Caroline back into Echo's body because Whiskey was programmed to stop Bennett from doing that. Once she accomplished that task, she was programmed to return to Tucson so that Clyde Randolph could "push her out" of her body. 5) And forgive me for bringing up an old one, but WHO sent the messages to Ballard in "Man on the Street" and "Spy in the House of Love"? I know full well that Dominic was the spy, but he still wasn't the one messing with the chair. Someone else wanted Paul to know that there are over twenty Dollhouses and that Mellie was a sleeper agent and that he shouldn't let her know how far into his investigation he was. So who wanted Paul to succeed? Certainly not Dominic, or Boyd.....After "A Love Supreme" and the Sierra Virus, my best guess is Alpha. Of course HE would want Paul to succeed in getting into the Dollhouse.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Feb 1, 2010 18:45:58 GMT -5
The timing of the sleeper activation is a little sketchy. From the interview with Amy Acker, we know that she was a sleeper when she terminated Bennett, not doing it just out of spite. Which indicates that her sleeper programming is slightly more sophisticated than November's, or Perrin's, since she didn't go into zombie mode. But then again, Mellie was able to kinda hold a conversation with Paul while about to kill him, so perhaps sleepers aren't quite as mute as they initially appear? But, all said and done, I think that Claire did have a romantic interlude with Boyd. Pet theory with the whole sleeper thing, plus perhaps an explanation for why Claire/Whiskey decided to stay behind in the Dollhouse. One of the things she retained in her future noggin is that she had to wait for Boyd (or at least that much was heavily hinted at in "Epitaph One"). Boyd leaves Claire in the flashback, reassuring her that he'll be back for her. Well, perhaps that was her trigger. And the programming is so deep in her, that they can't shake it. It was Claire's choice to stay behind, and being a sleeper that once did the bidding of Rossum, perhaps she was afraid that being with the rest of the survivors would endanger them. Even more so, if my guess about her trigger is wrong, and Claire can actually be triggered remotely (which wouldn't surprise me, since there were never any real set rules about how the tech worked... they ran with it in so many cool directions).
As for the guy who was messing with the chair, that was Dominic. He placed the chip in the chair, that allowed him to compromise the imprints, so it would have been easy for him to slip in a little extra into Echo's and November's imprint. He wanted Paul to succeed kinda... because as he said to Adelle in "A Spy in a House of Love", exposing Rossum would place the tech firmly in the hands of the government, and therefore prevent the tech catastrophe that brought about the apocalypse... a claim he rubs in Adelle's face in "Epitaph One".
|
|
|
Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Feb 1, 2010 23:00:55 GMT -5
I don't know how I feel about the finale, personally. It was all just a bit off to me. And I had absolutely no emotion at the end of the episode like I did with Firefly/Angel/Buffy. It was nice to see where it went...but bring on new Joss projects! I can't wait to see what he does next.
|
|
darthrosenberg9
Potential Slayer
"You haven?t seen my drawer of inappropriate starches?"[Mo0:37]
Posts: 107
|
Post by darthrosenberg9 on Feb 2, 2010 2:24:26 GMT -5
From the Dollhouse Wiki:
"In the episode "A Spy in the House of Love", Laurence is found out to be spy for the National Security Agency. He sent Sierra out on a mission that he set up so that he could frame Ivy as the spy, but Topher had engaged Echo as a spy hunter as well. Once Echo was around him long enough, she figured out that he was the spy using deductive skills and he attacked her. While tied up after the fight and questioned by Adelle he said that he was protecting the Dollhouse and "If it weren't for me, Paul Ballard would have found you already.", which came true shortly after. Adelle then sent him into the lab to give him a "mind suck." He stole a guard's gun and attempted to shoot himself in the head, then tried to shoot Adelle, grazing her abdomen. His mind extracted, he was sent to The Attic."
That line plus the fact that he always advocated killing Paul still has me doubting that he was the person helping Paul.....HOWEVER considering that he also worked for the government and may have wanted Paul's branch to stay out of his branch's way, I have to think about this more. I just wrote it off as unsolved back after "Omega" aired and just thought we'd get to it later....so it's been a long time since I've thought about it.
|
|
|
Post by Eric on Feb 2, 2010 3:30:53 GMT -5
Well, we know Dominic was sent to the Dollhouse to make sure they don't misuse the technology, but my guess is the bug he planted in the chair was sent to him by his superiors, so he didn't necessarily know what it would do.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Feb 2, 2010 8:20:43 GMT -5
Darth Rosie: Adelle didn't know about Echo's piggyback imprint. What Dominic says to her could very well just be him bargaining, trading in his hours of "faithful" service for mercy. He may have advocated killing Paul, in front of Adelle, but the chip in the chair proves that he has his own agenda. The Dollhouse is an urban legend. The only person who believed it was real was Paul. To the FBI, it wasn't real. And I don't think the FBI and NSA really communicated in this case.
|
|
|
Post by henzINNIT on Feb 2, 2010 8:37:21 GMT -5
In "Spy...", the chip is found and picked up before Mellie is imprinted with a message for Ballard. This means that Dominic and the chip could potentially have nothing to do with the messages.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Feb 2, 2010 9:34:57 GMT -5
Pretty sure that when the events are arranged chronologically, the chip is detected after Mellie was dispatched.
|
|