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Post by Eric on Jan 16, 2010 0:43:23 GMT -5
Good question. As soon as it went out over the intercom, the scene went to Boyd next to a computer that the tape was on with soundwaves going off. Maybe Boyd is just big with the dramatics? Or is, like Adelle said, crazy as a football bat. He's been an awfully good actor for a crazy man, though. Perhaps he thought he could get it over with quickly by threatening her, but keeping the video on hand for a slightly less quick back up. Also, I think it was Claire that shot Bennet. Boyd probably told her to take off to Tucson after the deed was done.
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Post by The Girl In Question on Jan 16, 2010 1:20:18 GMT -5
I also think Claire shot Bennett. The speech before she killed her convinced me of it. And I want Boyd to be alive! T.T I've never been so depressed at the death of a Big Bad before.
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Post by lightandmagic on Jan 16, 2010 1:28:57 GMT -5
I was disappointed with this episode in all honesty. I was sooo psyched for Boyd as a villain and other than a couple creepy scenes (and by a couple, I mean the one, with Topher where he says he's glad he chose him), they didn't explain his motives too well. Nor his relationship with Whiskey/Claire/Clyde.
Boyd's death felt unsatisfactory, and I really hope he didn't actually kill himself and rather faked it, and will show up in the future all "I'm alive, bitches! Deal with this!" And go renegade with machine guns or something.
Also, I'm slightly puzzled about the spinal fluid. Was the 'vaccine' created only when Echo was born, therefore her spinal fluid was powerful enough to serve as a vaccine against imprints, or was it always a vaccine of sorts? If it's the latter, it doesn't really make sense story-wise.
I don't know. Maybe this episode seems lacklustre because of the brilliance of the last episode.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jan 16, 2010 1:52:51 GMT -5
I also think Claire shot Bennett. The speech before she killed her convinced me of it. Part of me can't buy Claire being a killer. Sure, she doesn't like Topher, but her development in Vows made it seem like she got over the whole ordeal: no more excuses, she was human and could make her own decisions. I just can't see her shooting a girl point blank because she disliked someone. She seemed pretty well rounded in Epitaph One too. Even tried to give Topher his meds. Also, I'm slightly puzzled about the spinal fluid. Was the 'vaccine' created only when Echo was born, therefore her spinal fluid was powerful enough to serve as a vaccine against imprints, or was it always a vaccine of sorts? If it's the latter, it doesn't really make sense story-wise. I was also kind of confused by this (it was so random). During the flashback between Caroline and Boyd, he had her medical records, and as a kid she went through a bone marrow transplant to save a family member. I guess this showed she was a good candidate for Rossum's research. So she got turned into Echo, and Boyd waited to see if she could block her imprints. She was able to, so he was going to use her spinal fluid as a vaccine against being imprinted for the future. That's probably all wrong, but it's how I understood it.
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The Girl In Question
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Post by The Girl In Question on Jan 16, 2010 1:55:57 GMT -5
I also think Claire shot Bennett. The speech before she killed her convinced me of it. Part of me can't buy Claire being a killer. Sure, she doesn't like Topher, but her development in Vows made it seem like she got over the whole ordeal: no more excuses, she was human and could make her own decisions. I just can't see her shooting a girl point blank because she disliked someone. She seemed pretty well rounded in Epitaph One too. Even tried to give Topher his meds. Also, I'm slightly puzzled about the spinal fluid. Was the 'vaccine' created only when Echo was born, therefore her spinal fluid was powerful enough to serve as a vaccine against imprints, or was it always a vaccine of sorts? If it's the latter, it doesn't really make sense story-wise. I was also kind of confused by this (it was so random). During the flashback between Caroline and Boyd, he had her medical records, and as kid she went through a bone marrow transplant to save a family member. I guess this showed she was a good candidate for Rossum's research. So she got turned into Echo, and Boyd waited to see if she could block her imprints. She was able to, so he was going to use her spinal fluid as a vaccine against being imprinted for the future. That's probably all wrong, but it's how I understood it. I never said that Claire killed Bennett because she hated Topher
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jan 16, 2010 2:03:00 GMT -5
Ah, sorry for putting word in your mouth, just been reading that theory everywhere over the interwebzz.
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Post by Eric on Jan 16, 2010 3:17:03 GMT -5
I think it was just plain Claire that did it. It seems Boyd was the only that cared about her at the time, probably one of the few who ever cared about her, and I think she wouldn't hesitate to kill if Boyd asked her to.
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Post by dragonweaver on Jan 16, 2010 5:54:52 GMT -5
This was a really great episode. It wasn't as amazing as I thought it would be, but it has to be really hard to wrap up a show with it's own mythology into a few episodes.
My thoughts about the episode and on what's already been said:
1. I had posted in the last episode topic that I thought Whiskey / Claire was Clyde 2.0. It's entirely possible that she was imprinted with Clyde's persona right before going back to the house and furthermore; I firmly believe that Claire would never, under any circumstances, kill some random stranger. Plus as a medical doctor Claire would have many skills, but marksmanship wouldn't be one of them. No way she'd be able to so calmly and accurately shoot someone in the head. It's just far more likely that Clyde impersonated the doctor long enough to get close to Bennett and then kill her. And as Boyd stated...killing Bennett wasn't completely about stopping her from restoring Caroline...it was about hurting Topher in a test to see if he could rise above the pain and do what needed to be done.
2. Boyd is most likely dead. They never had time to create a vaccine and I don't see how he would be able to fake being wiped, especially because Topher was standing behind him. Plus as a doll he'd be very vulnerable to suggestion so I say he blew up and took the server lab with him. As for Whiskey/Claire/Clyde...Topher made a quick statement about "carrying Saunders out" so she was not in the lab with Boyd when the explosion happened.
3. So how does the apocalypse happen if Boyd dies? Well Rossum is huge and I seriously doubt that the remote wiping technology was only being worked on in one location. Clyde 2.0 could easily get a new body, take over control of Rossum and then carry on the plan without his partner.
4. I'm really looking forward to the finale and seeing how Joss ends everything. Will it be a happy ending or something more dramatic?
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 16, 2010 7:43:22 GMT -5
Okay it was pretty good. Not brilliant. I felt a lot like I did last week, where I had to get past choppy pacing and obvious low low budget to enjoy things.
Boyd's end was brilliant. Gotta say.
I lol'd at Ballard being the rubbish extended family member.
The spinal fluid was a bit out of the blue, but I suspected as much was coming. Echo was deemed special (for reasons unknown until this ep), but Boyd took an interest in her because of her growing resistance to imprinting. As this mind wiping apocalypse was close at hand, the one thing the head honchos really desired was immunity from it.
Amy as Clyde 2.0 was half baked to fuck. I think Claire killed Bennet with no motive other than hatred, and was soon after apprehended by Rossum. Why oh why didn't they remove her scars in that time-gap though? When they go is something I keep asking, but after this ep I wonder where the hell she is as well, as she was last seen at the location of the explosion, and not taken by our heroes.
The mega OMG explosion that we saw was rubbish. I'm sympathetic as there are budgetry limitations, but come on. Running down the hall-way followed by fire - Boom Boom Boom - to casually walking out the front door like "hai guys!". It was more jarring than the cheesy pan to white we saw last week where the explosion should have been.
I may take my editing knife to this when the DVD rolls around. I'm certainly hoping for some interesting deleted scenes.
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Post by Joe on Jan 16, 2010 9:19:34 GMT -5
Ok. Here's the answer for Claire/Clyde that I think the writers were trying to get across. In "Getting Closer", Echo and Paul thought Claire was made a sleeper. In the "Previously on Dollhouse," last night, they showed the same 3 seconds of Echo and Paul deducing that she was a sleeper but they never mentioned anything more than that about it. Later on, Boyd admitted to being the reason Claire/Clyde shot Bennett.
Here's what I think happened. (Even though they never explained it). Claire loves Boyd. Claire goes back. Claire has scenes. Right before we see the Boyd/Claire scene where he's about to leave, he makes her a sleeper that will go off at the sound of Topher's voice. The sleeper's only job is to kill Bennett. Topher walks in, Claire shoots Bennett, and leaves to meet Boyd where she is imprinted as Clyde.
It sounded better before I typed it out but I still think it's plausible.
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Post by Angel Beast on Jan 16, 2010 11:08:09 GMT -5
Why Mellie she was my favorite. I was kinda hoping for Paul to kiss her and wake her out of it. For some reason I felt that Alpha was going to show up again, don't know why.
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Post by Whedon Fan on Jan 16, 2010 14:46:44 GMT -5
Shame. . . the past few episodes of dollhouse have been fantastic. But this one was very meh-ish. A lot of techno-bable and what not that really just seemed like it had been thrown in. There is a lot of guess work to be done in this episode, like we have to fill in the gaps or something. I think they have just tried to answer as many questions as possible about the show in this episode and its came out a bit blah. Seemed very rushed but then again the show was canceled so I suppose it was I just thought they would have done it a bit better than this. Boyd's turn to the rossum side seemed off to me. I'm not fully understanding the clyde 2.0 thing or how claire went from shooting benner to leaving the dollhouse and is then suddenly ina suit as clyde. how did he even get out the attic btw? Wish they wrapped up the alpha story line better. So he is juts left to roam the streets now. They should have taken him downn or had him in an episode somewhere or taken down by rossaum perhaps?? Nice episode just a few nit picky things that ruined it for me. Hopefully epitath 2 will be a nice ending to the show.
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jan 16, 2010 15:25:30 GMT -5
It was "decent". The real problem it had was caused by "Epitaph One". Boyd and Mellie were the only two question-marks, in terms of what was going to happen to them. All the others, we already knew they were going to make it out of there okay. And we knew that they were going to be unsuccessful in trying to destroy the tech. So unfortunately, there wasn't a lot of drama or suspense. It really could've used another surprising twist or two, but we didn't get one. Topher 2.0 might've been a "waste of time", but I didn't mind one bit. Enver is so friggin' good at playing him, and this was going to be the last chance he had, ever, that I loved seeing it one more time.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 16, 2010 15:46:36 GMT -5
Shame. . . the past few episodes of dollhouse have been fantastic. But this one was very meh-ish. A lot of techno-bable and what not that really just seemed like it had been thrown in. There is a lot of guess work to be done in this episode, like we have to fill in the gaps or something. I think they have just tried to answer as many questions as possible about the show in this episode and its came out a bit blah. Seemed very rushed but then again the show was canceled so I suppose it was I just thought they would have done it a bit better than this. Boyd's turn to the rossum side seemed off to me. I'm not fully understanding the clyde 2.0 thing or how claire went from shooting benner to leaving the dollhouse and is then suddenly ina suit as clyde. how did he even get out the attic btw? Wish they wrapped up the alpha story line better. So he is juts left to roam the streets now. They should have taken him downn or had him in an episode somewhere or taken down by rossaum perhaps?? Nice episode just a few nit picky things that ruined it for me. Hopefully epitath 2 will be a nice ending to the show. Clyde never got out of the Attic. Clyde 2.0 was created before Clyde got stuck in the Attic, since it was Clyde 2.0 and Boyd who stuck Clyde in there. In other words, Clyde 2.0 was the first imprint. As for Alpha, they couldn't kill him, since intriguingly, he's one of the good guys in "Epitaph One". He's mentioned at least, and it seems like he's helping the cause of the resistance.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 16, 2010 17:01:10 GMT -5
It was "decent". The real problem it had was caused by "Epitaph One". Boyd and Mellie were the only two question-marks, in terms of what was going to happen to them. All the others, we already knew they were going to make it out of there okay. And we knew that they were going to be unsuccessful in trying to destroy the tech. So unfortunately, there wasn't a lot of drama or suspense. It really could've used another surprising twist or two, but we didn't get one. Topher 2.0 might've been a "waste of time", but I didn't mind one bit. Enver is so friggin' good at playing him, and this was going to be the last chance he had, ever, that I loved seeing it one more time. Yeah to the lack of suspense. I was a lil bothered by their "winning". It wasn't instantly yanked from us with that last scene, we knew before the season started it wasn't to be. There could have been more drama in seeing how they failed, because we knew they would.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jan 16, 2010 17:08:20 GMT -5
Loved the episode but really sad about how Boyd's story ended. He was my favorite character. Loved the Anthony/Priya stuff (loves those two! , and loved seeing Topher 2.0 once again. Comedy gold! Enver Gjokaj is an amazingly talented actor, love him! It was nice to have that bit of comedic element in the midst of such a serious episode. Poor Mellie. I am glad that she and Paul got some closure. I was always rooting for them as a couple. I am in denial that next week is the final episode. All the actors/actresses did such a wonderful job bringing the characters to life, really a talented group of people that will be greatly missed. And now I'm depressed.
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The Girl In Question
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Post by The Girl In Question on Jan 16, 2010 18:17:57 GMT -5
To all those who say we knew who was going to survive because of Epitaph One, not everyone has seen Epitaph One yet. I held out on seeing it for the longest time (but couldn't stand it and ended up watching it a few weeks ago ). I know a few people who still haven't seen Epitaph One, and who would find this episode pretty supsenseful, and the ending very shocking.
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Post by VampSlayer on Jan 16, 2010 18:53:44 GMT -5
Just rewatched the ep, and I liked it a lot more the second time around.
Still unhappy with the lack of explanation for Claire/Clyde/Whiskey shooting Bennett, and when she got Clyde's persona.
I'm thinking, maybe Boyd said something during the EP1 scene, and that made Claire go after Bennett(And return to the Rossum base, where she was imprinted with Clyde).
My other thought was that maybe Claire's imprint had been messed with by Boyd, and she thought she was working for him the whole time...?
Also, I think it would have been much more powerful if Whiskey's original self pushed Clyde out. It would have showed us the original personality, and given a glimpse of how strong a natural mind is. Like that, I was so upset that Caroline didn't really show up! She was just another person within Echo! Why in EP1, was Echo Caroline, if this was the deal?
I hope we get some things answered still, even if the odds look slim.
But, thinking that they had to do all of this so quickly... They actually did a pretty good job at doing what needed to be done. A few uneven ends, but overall patched together well.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 16, 2010 19:10:03 GMT -5
What you wanted Whiskey to do, November kinda did. Her Mellie imprint over-rode the Sleeper imprint, and she sacrificed herself. As for when/why Claire/Clyde killed Bennett thing... that's actually better left unanswered and left to viewer debate. Because good arguments can be made from several angles, using whatever textual evidence was given. It frees up time for other more plot-centric bits, instead of wasting the time to have Clyde/Claire go "Yeah... hated the bitch, so I iced her" or "Aww... Topher looked so happy, I just had to shaft him for a laugh". Caroline would never have "really showed up". Caroline is now an imprint... the original Caroline is stuck in a wedge. Echo, has the ability to composite all her personas, without losing control. Meaning that Echo being imprinted with Caroline would still just be Echo, but with the Caroline skillset and memories.
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Post by VampSlayer on Jan 16, 2010 19:15:46 GMT -5
Yeah, it would still be nice to have some answers set in stone. Yes, but in Epitaph One, isn't it Caroline who comes back to the Dollhouse? I meant that I was expecting Caroline to overrun Echo, because of the flashbacks we saw in Epitaph One. And speaking of Mellie... Poor her. In a way, I feel more sorry for Madeline. She didn't even get to go back into her her own body, and now she can't.
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