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Post by hitnrun017 on Oct 2, 2009 21:11:31 GMT -5
Well that was... not great. I tried liking it, I wanted to like, but couldn't.
Instinct suffered from the same thing Vows did, but with worse writing. Echo's engagement just wasn't that entertaining. All the good stuff gets backdoored. There was still some good scenes during Echo's part, like when they took Jack from her in the police station, Eliza was great. I also liked the final scene with Echo, seeing where her complicated head is at. Everything else just wasn't good, like, at all. Maybe the worst episode yet. Topher annoyed me a lot. He became a great character but he was just off this episode. Seems like the writers had a hard time with him. I also love how Echo managed to learn how to drive a car in two seconds.
Now the great things that made this episode worth watching. Madeline! Wow I love Miracle Laurie so much. It was awesome to see her again, how she is doing, how she got involved with the Dollhouse, and what Adelle promised her. The scene between those two was the best of the episode. She carried the scene between her and Paul too, got a little teary. Would've been better though if Tahmoh didn't suck and could portray an actual emotion.
Loved the stuff with Daniel Perrin and his wife too. That whole story is great and I like how it's moving forward. Seems like there is more backstory with him, Rossum, and his mother. Can't wait to see that explored. Something doesn't feel right with his wife too, I feel like Rossum may have done something to her.
What meh-ish episode.
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Post by Xander-Shaped Friend on Oct 2, 2009 21:16:20 GMT -5
Thank you, Emmie, that makes my stomache feel a little less slushy about the whole thing. Anyways, the episode actually surpassed my expectations. I thought some of Eliza's acting was quite good, but she should really figure out something where she doesn't use her face so much, it's not good. Right now I'd give a rough B+
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Post by Emmie on Oct 2, 2009 21:23:24 GMT -5
I thought this episode was great. I'm wondering, though, at the varied responses. Is it that this is an episode more women relate to? Do guys not find the mother/child bond fascinating?
Eliza's acting was superb here and I enjoyed the parallels between Echo's mother/child bond and Madeline/November's mother/child bond. Fascinating stuff.
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
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Post by alycat7 on Oct 2, 2009 21:31:50 GMT -5
I didn't care too much for this episode either. The engagement bore me to death. I also can't believe i'm saying this on a Joss show but I hated the writing. The conversation between Echo and Sierra in the park was sooo uninteresting. I didn't even like the interaction between Madeline and Ballard, I'm not really sure why.
I can't really think of anything I did like, other than seeing Alexis again, and even his scenes I didn't think were all that special.
Hopefully next week will be better.
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Post by Emmie on Oct 2, 2009 21:35:43 GMT -5
Eliza was superb in this. Any criticism of her acting just got seriously PWNd. "So can I be his mommy?" Oh, god. Her face when she asked. My heart just twisted inside. That was so perfect. I love the switch up. Transformations. Echo was at first the victimized mother, now she's the crazed murderous villain obsessed with a child that's not her own. So interesting. "Go, please." Oh Echo! I lol'd at that scene.
Echo feels sad at losing her baby. Madeline is "not sad" anymore from losing her baby. Interesting parallel. One remembers, the other doesn't. It seemed though that the motherly bond was so strong that if it was maintained in Echo, and it was maintained within November (we saw this in Needs when she had no memory), then it presumably is something that shouldn't be able to be so easily removed. Nor is it something Topher would know how to remove since he'd only just realized that the motherly bond could go that deep once Echo glitched. How could they remove something that they didn't know needed more than a normal wipe?
I still don't see how Topher could offer to remove a mother bond for Madeline/November last season when he only learned it could go that deep in this episode. He didn't know that it could be retained beneath the wipe.
The inversion of the horror motifs turning Echo into the monster was brilliant. I loved how Echo wanted the pain because it made her "awake" and more real.
The motivation for the father to seek an active!mother was also really interesting and while he initially escaped his responsibility to live in his grief, he finally owned up. Just as Echo owned up. Just as Madeline failed to own up and is now living what appears to be a meaningless life of leisure without attachments - was it worth it Madeline, really?
The imagery of the final scene is telling - Ballard is sitting on a park bench with Echo looking at a dark, empty playground. Impotent, unable to do anything but watch the empty playground antics.
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
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Post by alycat7 on Oct 2, 2009 21:41:05 GMT -5
Maybe you're right Emmie. Maybe I can't understand why this episode would be considered good because I'm just some teenage male who could care less about maternal instincts.
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Post by Emmie on Oct 2, 2009 21:44:16 GMT -5
Maybe you're right Emmie. Maybe I can't understand why this episode would be considered good because I'm just some teenage male who could care less about maternal instincts. LOL I wouldn't say it that harshly. I do think a story's power revolves around if you can relate to it. If you don't care about a mother's experience or can see it reflected in you, then yeah this episode isn't going to come off as powerful.
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Post by Wyndam on Oct 2, 2009 21:45:11 GMT -5
I thought this episode was great. I'm wondering, though, at the varied responses. Is it that this is an episode more women relate to? Do guys not find the mother/child bond fascinating? Eliza's acting was superb here and I enjoyed the parallels between Echo's mother/child bond and Madeline/November's mother/child bond. Fascinating stuff. Hey, I'm a guy and I agree with you. I really enjoyed this episode, probably more than last weeks. I got really into Echo's state of mind all throughout the episode and loved her reaction to every situation. The episode had probably one of the best third acts in the series yet. Echo really went on a journey in this episode, and I loved it. My only main complaint, is that Boyd wasn't in it. I would have loved to have seen his reaction to Topher's newest breakthrough, especially after it blew up in his face. Big surprise, but I'm loving Alexis Denisof. Perrin's a better "righteous" character than Ballard, and that scene where his wife answered the door really built some fast acting tension. That was fun. I wonder who his new source is? It sounds like Dominic was his old source, so who is helping him now? Eliza's acting was great, as were Miracle's scenes. I enjoyed this episode a tiny bit more than last week's, and this was probably my favorite stand alone yet. It's at least tied with "The Target."
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
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Post by alycat7 on Oct 2, 2009 21:47:45 GMT -5
Maybe you're right Emmie. Maybe I can't understand why this episode would be considered good because I'm just some teenage male who could care less about maternal instincts. LOL I wouldn't say it that harshly. I do think a story's power revolves around if you can relate to it. If you don't care about a mother's experience or can see it reflected in you, then yeah this episode isn't going to come off as powerful. LOL. Didn't mean to sound so harsh, just couldn't think of any other way to say it.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Oct 2, 2009 21:50:12 GMT -5
I thought this episode was great. I'm wondering, though, at the varied responses. Is it that this is an episode more women relate to? Do guys not find the mother/child bond fascinating? For me, it was more the extremely mediocre writing. There was nothing special about it, except maybe in that final scene with Echo. Eliza's performance is really the only thing that carried me through the story. She was perfect as a devoted mother, I just wish the writing was as good.
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Post by Emmie on Oct 2, 2009 21:55:53 GMT -5
See, but I do find much special in it. So I'm wondering what specifically about the writing was mediocre to you.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Oct 2, 2009 22:04:36 GMT -5
See, but I do find much special in it. So I'm wondering what specifically about the writing was mediocre to you. Well there are a lot of smart parallels and symbols like you mentioned, but the overall story was just... cliche? A happy mother suspects something is up with her husband, talks to her friend about it, it takes a turn for a worse and calls her friend to get her, she runs, goes to the cops... I've seen this whole thing in television and movies many times. The only special thing about it was Eliza, who had me totally convinced and worried about what was going to happen next. I like babies too alright!? And just how adorable was he? But who knows, maybe it is just your hormones. Hehe.
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Post by Emmie on Oct 2, 2009 22:06:52 GMT -5
I like babies too alright!? That's not what your profile says...
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Post by hitnrun017 on Oct 2, 2009 22:08:34 GMT -5
I like babies too alright!? That's not what your profile says... Hahaha. What profile?
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Oct 2, 2009 22:08:49 GMT -5
I liked it, although I feel there were a few scenes that could have been helped by better writing. But this was a very moving episode. And yeah, any criticism of Eliza's capacity for acting just got owned, she hit every note just right through the entire show. I have a feeling that's not the last time Topher tries something new, either.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 2, 2009 22:10:37 GMT -5
I found the first half of the episode a bit slow... I actually zoned out a bit during Echo's park bench conversation with Sierra... hope I didn't miss anything important.
Echo's "wiped" personality was quite interesting. Obviously she was basically in a "blank slate" state.. she gave the correct responses to Topher's control script, she thought you could drive a car by asking it to go, and her conversation with her "husband" indicated she didn't really know what was going on at first... yet she knew how to drop Topher with one punch, figured out how to drive a car through city traffic in a matter of seconds, knew how to cut the power and phone to her "husband's" house... she's obviously channeling appropriate past personalities even in her wiped state.
What was the nature of this engagement, exactly? Echo was supposed to be a mother for her client's baby. That seems like a very long-term assignment to me... years, maybe. But hiring a Doll starts in the seven figures, and it's got to be much more than that for such a long-term engagement. Echo's contract would be up before the baby was even a toddler. And Sierra was hired too, apparently for the same term. This guy must have the financial resources of an OPEC nation to afford that.
Why did Topher offer to "upgrade" Madeline when she was there for her diagnostic? Upgrade what? If she's no longer imprinted, how can she be upgraded?
Anyone suspect she *is* still imprinted?
In the scene with Senator Perrin where the doorbell rang and his wife went to answer it, I was fully expecting her to be kidnapped or even killed by Rossum thugs... especially when she didn't come back right away and he had to call for her. I wonder if something *did* happen to her that we didn't see? I would think she might have been remotely imprinted to act as a mole, but as far as we know Alpha is the only one who can do that... Topher hasn't invented his "imprint via broadcast" technology yet.
And who left those incriminating records at the Senator's house? Paul is the obvious culprit, but I'm not ruling out Madeline, or even Adelle.
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Post by Emmie on Oct 2, 2009 22:13:56 GMT -5
Profile to the side of your post that lists your user name, post count, etc.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Oct 2, 2009 22:16:31 GMT -5
In the scene with Senator Perrin where the doorbell rang and his wife went to answer it, I was fully expecting her to be kidnapped or even killed by Rossum thugs... especially when she didn't come back right away and he had to call for her. I wonder if something *did* happen to her that we didn't see? I would think she might have been remotely imprinted to act as a mole, but as far as we know Alpha is the only one who can do that... Topher hasn't invented his "imprint via broadcast" technology yet. That's what I was expecting too and was shocked to see her again. But as soon as she came back, and even the next scene, the whole tone shifted from when we first saw her. I thought that was neat. Alpha is still out there too, I can see him doing it. I also want to know who's name Perrin has now. Caroline? If it is Alpha, maybe he's pulling another Paul. Boyd's absense from this episode makes me suspect him too. Profile to the side of your post that lists your user name, post count, etc. LMAO! What is wrong with you?! I have to leave it there for a little bit now.
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Post by Emmie on Oct 2, 2009 22:17:47 GMT -5
Profile to the side of your post that lists your user name, post count, etc. LMAO! What is wrong with you?! I have to leave it there for a little bit now. Bwahahahahaha!
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
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Post by alycat7 on Oct 2, 2009 22:31:25 GMT -5
I'm really interested to see what Topher meant by asking Madeline if she wanted an upgrade. Maybe he's working on new innovations that he wants to try out.
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