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Post by wenxina on Oct 2, 2009 23:01:41 GMT -5
I still don't see how Topher could offer to remove a mother bond for Madeline/November last season when he only learned it could go that deep in this episode. He didn't know that it could be retained beneath the wipe. Topher didn't have to. Madeline's body was not that of a new mother. Don't think that her daughter's age was disclosed, but there was also a 6 month period of ailment before she died, which would place her at arguably older than baby Jack. Echo's body was completely altered by Topher messing about with her brain... he programmed her body by programming the secretion of oxytocin and prolactin, hormones that not only allow breastfeeding to occur, but also stimulates bonding between a mother and her child. The suckling action triggers a positive feedback to the brain to release even more of those hormones, thus reinforcing the feeling of well-being and connection. It's very possible that Madeline's daughter was possibly past the breastfeeding age. I'm not arguing that she didn't love her daughter as much as Echo did the baby here, but just that her body wasn't in the same state anymore. The imagery of the final scene is telling - Ballard is sitting on a park bench with Echo looking at a dark, empty playground. Impotent, unable to do anything but watch the empty playground antics. Reminded me of "Gingerbread"... EDIT: PS, yes, I'm a biologist, and yes, I work in an endocrinology lab. My word is law on this. Suck it up!
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Post by Emmie on Oct 2, 2009 23:14:37 GMT -5
I've been arguing this on Whedonesque still. I don't think the motherly bond is limited to when a woman is lactating. I think the time that goes on past this point only strengthens the bond and deepens it.
The episode is called instinct. Madeline grieving for her lost child is instinct the way Echo grieves. Topher wasn't responsible for the motherly bond, only the physical jumpstart that enabled Echo to both physically and emotionally and hormonally bond. But it wasn't something Topher could create - he could only prime Echo for the experience of bonding in this way. I don't think we've been shown that this instinct can be wiped without damaging the functioning mass of the human mind. And because the motherly bond is only explored in this episode, Topher wasn't aware of it when he restored Madeline.
Basically, I'm taking the stance that the motherly bond goes beyond when her child is an infant. It's a lifetime. How many times do you hear parents say the worst thing in the world is to outlive your child? I think the instinct was born in Echo and still is in Madeline. I don't see how an "instinct" is wiped without completely tearing the person down. It'd be like removing the instinct to fear loud noises, which hey, in the doll state that's all they are - instincts. Fear bright lights, loud noises. They return smiles when smiled at because that's an instinctual act.
The doll state is instinctual. So if a doll is already wiped, how do you wipe out an instinct?
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Post by wenxina on Oct 2, 2009 23:31:35 GMT -5
I think you're taking the emotional argument and running with it. It's valid, but it negates biology, or at least downplays the importance and elegance of a bunch of molecules in our bodies. What happened here goes beyond just the emotional maternal bond. The emotional bond was created by the chemical bond, but it's also sustained by it. It's reinforced. Not saying that a mother just detaches after lactation, but the almost physical urge goes. But by then, should nature have its wacky ways, the bond would already be strong enough. But you're not getting the same rapid-fire succession of peptide hormones telling you to love the writhing bundle of flesh anymore.
And Echo wasn't grieving here. She was acting like a mother with a newborn, in that she was particularly protective, even resorting to violence if needed. Animal mothers are particularly defensive when the young are particularly helpless, usually newborn. If we're going to argue instinct, that's as far as it goes... since animals are a lot more instinctual than we are (and yet, man is an animal). The rest of it... learned behavior, even though most mothers will argue that their love for their spawn is visceral.
And I think you're forgetting the core issue here. November was never as self-aware as Echo. Heck, even Victor and Sierra showed more self-awareness than November. November's "need" to grieve in "Needs" wasn't purely instinctual; she had her personality restored so that she could deal with a pressing matter that only resurfaced after that drug messed about with the basal brain, which arguably is still quite mysterious to neuroscientists. Instinct is something hard to quantify, and sometimes even to qualify. Most of the time, it's a matter of semantics. But what is mostly deemed instinct in the human context is arguably not instinct. Most of human behavior is learned, not instinctual. We smile when people smile at us because we're taught that it's polite. If it were instinctual, babies wouldn't frown when they're being cooed at. In fact, you could say that wanting to be left alone when too much fuss is being made may be more instinctual than accepting the spotlight.
But to answer your question, I'd first preface my argument by saying that the Doll state is not purely instinctual. Certain parts of it is; i.e. the "flocking" bison behavior. But the constant smiling, naivete... that's just innocence. Instinct is protecting yourself from hurt. And so, the simple answer that I think this episode addresses (isn't it great when an episode goes right back to the purpose of fiction: to entertain and educate) is that instinct is more deeply-seated than one's memory, personality, etc. In that regard, Echo's instinctive need to protect her child from what she believed was harm (she thought that her "husband" was going to hurt the baby somehow) surfaced because her body was still wired that way. Shutting off the switch in the brain doesn't stop the body from a "memory effect". The memory effect has been shown to persist, long after the switch has been flipped. Which one could then extrapolate an argument to support my earlier claim that much of later motherhood is not so much instinct as conditioning. Plus there's the emotional feedback: you provide love and care, and the child responds accordingly. As Topher said in an earlier episode (possibly even in the unaired pilot), altruism makes us feel good. Or at least the Dolls feel that way. But we, as all animals do, respond to a reward system. Feeling good is the ultimate reward. Socrates (I think... or perhaps Plato) called it eudaimonia. The virtuous life was to do good to feel good... something along those line. I'm oversimplifying. It's been a while since my Intro to Philosophy class... like 5 years, methinks.
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●B E N
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Post by ●B E N on Oct 2, 2009 23:42:27 GMT -5
*looks at the sciency posts* 0_0 I liked the episode. It was cool. Echo is crazy and the baby was hell a cute!
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jellymoff
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Post by jellymoff on Oct 3, 2009 2:24:16 GMT -5
*looks at the sciency posts* 0_0 I liked the episode. It was cool. Echo is crazy and the baby was hell a cute! That baby was super cute.
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Post by lightandmagic on Oct 3, 2009 12:22:35 GMT -5
So I liked this episode more than Vows, the engagement of the week was much better than Vows, and hell a large majority of season 1.
The Amazing:
-Eliza Dushku's acting. Wow. I was definitely always hesitant about her last year as she never seemed to be able to match up with any of the other cast members, but this episode and Vows just shut me up. When she's desperately trying to escape from the police station I actually got shivers in how realistic it seemed. - "The mind is like Van Halen. If you keep removing one piece and replacing it, it just degenerates."
The Good: - Loved seeing the perspective of Echo as the Dollhouse coming to kill her. It just kinda showed how terrifying it was, she's trying to escape from her house, they take her friend. They start coming from every entrance of the house. They start following her down the street in the van. Even with the knowledge that it was the Dollhouse, it was very thriller-esque and you're even hoping she manages to elude them. - The scene in which Echo slowly comes to realize that it isn't her baby is really well written, and once again, Eliza Dushku does a really good job. - Topher and Ballard talking in the beginning. It was a funny conversation, and as I personally hate Paul Ballard, it was nice to see him put in his place by Topher.
The Bad: -When did Miracle Laurie become such a stiff actress? Last year as Mellie she was so good, but here her charater had no personality and every line was so forced and awkward especially...: -The scene between Paul and Madeline was painful. Both were not good at acting the parts at all. -Paul Ballard continues to not be an appealing character at all. Am I the only one that is just severely bothered by him? He acts so righteous and moral and it's so annoying. The scene with Echo at the end when he tries to act all white knight I wanted to punch him so badly.
The Horrible: -The lightning and the power being cut. Really? Way too cheesy. -"Mommy's home." I literally lol'd.
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Post by wytchcroft on Oct 3, 2009 19:18:31 GMT -5
The Bad: -When did Miracle Laurie become such a stiff actress? Last year as Mellie she was so good, but here her charater had no personality and every line was so forced and awkward especially...: -The scene between Paul and Madeline was painful. Both were not good at acting the parts at all. i think that WAS the acting, it was deliberate and meant to be awkward feeling. and again, deliberate. What i found really creepy was the way he actually offered to wipe Echo completely, to take her pain away - way to give the party line there Paul, corrupted much? LOL! Everyone in Dollhouse has weaknesses and blind-spots. my only question after Adelle's freaky speech about children that aren't 'imprinted' with love being socio-paths is WTF Scientology?!?! There was a lot of dubious theory in the episode but it worked in character context... i just hope that's all it was. i thought the best scene was Eliza and Dichen chatting near the beginning just very relaxed and natural. thought it was hi-larious myself. me too! and the baby looked like Patton Oswalt!!!
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Mer
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Post by Mer on Oct 4, 2009 0:59:04 GMT -5
My opinions: *That was one happy baby. I swear, that baby was HAPPY. Every time the camera was on him, he's jumping and dancing with glee. I want to know the mechanics behind that b/c it's a rare thing for a baby to enjoy his environment on a TV set. *Topher and Ballard's conversation made me giggle the entire time God I'm such a fangirl sometimes I can't even remember what triggered it. *I do find Echo's reentry to the house a bit cheesy. Like it was instantly turned into a horror film. Crazy weird. *Alex made me have strayed thoughts Another fangirl moment and it was just weird I enjoyed the episode overall and like it better than Vows. Will I see more of Alexis? It feels like he's playing a key role. It's the feeling I get. And I teared up a bit seeing Echo separated from the baby.
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Iceeh★
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Post by Iceeh★ on Oct 4, 2009 3:13:55 GMT -5
Wow, this episode totally restored my faith in Dollhouse. I loved it, and it really struck a chord with me emotionally. And I audibly squeed when Echo punched Topher. I love Topher to death, but that was hilarious!
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Post by Midnight Butterfly on Oct 4, 2009 12:21:41 GMT -5
I think I could call this my all time favourite Dollhouse episode. The acting and storyline was pretty intense and Eliza did the best she has done yet. The show seems to be getting better and better. Pretty emotional all round and I knew it would be good by watching the trailer, pretty sad about the ratings though
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dravenuk
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Post by dravenuk on Oct 4, 2009 13:03:12 GMT -5
I enjoyed this episode more than Vows as it was doing what Dollhouse has been doing best - looking at aspects of human nature and what it is that actually makes us who we are. Being part biology, part psychology and part raw emotion, mother & child bonding was a fascinating aspect of humanity to explore. I thought Eliza was wonderful and quite heart wrenching in this ep. I also really liked seeing Madeline back and the revelation of her losing a child being the reason she became an active. The whole thing about the nature of grief and pain through loss is interesting. Madeline has had her natural pain and grief removed artificially so as to not feel it, whereas Echo is experiencing it properly albeit from an artificial source. People need to go through proper grieving and to carry a certain amount of pain with them over loss. Why would you not want to keep a certain degree of pain over losing a child? It is events like these and the emotional baggage that go with them that go towards making us who we are. That’s partly why I believe Madeline came across as almost flat in character in this episode. She has lost something she needs. And it was great seeing Alexis again too – although always weird hearing him with his real accent. No matter what he does he will always be Wesley Wyndam-Pryce: Rogue Demon Hunter to me. So a solid, interesting episode for me. But my personal gripes with the show remain the same as they always have. Apart from Echo I just don’t find any of the characters and their plights that interesting. And Topher still actively (excuse the pun) annoys me. The cast is mostly fine with Eliza being always good to sometimes great. However I do find Tahmon Penikett to be a dull and uninspiring actor. But despite them all being (mostly) fine, I, personally, find no spark in the cast. There is no magic that happens. No real chemistry between any of them. When I think back to the instant spark and chemistry and depth that resonated from all the characters and cast of Buffy, Angel and Firefly it saddens me that – for me at least - Dollhouse has just never really taken off. I like the series. A lot. And I appreciate it for what its been trying to do. I just don’t love it. But I will still miss it when it has gone. And the way the ratings are currently falling through the floor that can’t be long now. Boo!
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●B E N
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Post by ●B E N on Oct 4, 2009 13:15:16 GMT -5
Wow, this episode totally restored my faith in Dollhouse. I loved it, and it really struck a chord with me emotionally. And I audibly squeed when Echo punched Topher. I love Topher to death, but that was hilarious! Hahahaha hell yes! I thought that was funny!
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jellymoff
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Post by jellymoff on Oct 4, 2009 15:44:45 GMT -5
Stop me if someone has already said this (I didn't see it), but who thinks Madeline getting hit on the head is going to cause some big issues for her?
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Post by Midnight Butterfly on Oct 4, 2009 16:10:55 GMT -5
Stop me if someone has already said this (I didn't see it), but who thinks Madeline getting hit on the head is going to cause some big issues for her? I didn't say that yet, but I thought that for sure. They brought Madeline back for test and the whole time I was thinking "things are going too well". And then 'BANG!' she gets hit on the head. Its sure to mess up the brain and make her go all funny. In which casee they will bring her back in. Just what I thought
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elenasaur
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Post by elenasaur on Oct 4, 2009 21:13:23 GMT -5
I liked that episode a lot. I thought it was interesting that the maternal bond went deeper than just a brain wipe. More instinct, less thought process behind it I guess.
Where was Boyd though? Did he follow Dr. Saunders? Because you'd think that an active going into crazed kidnapping mode would draw the attention of the head of security. I've also convinced myself that Echo trusts Boyd more than she trusts Ballard. Which I'm sure is entirely because Boyd is my favorite character, and I want to punch Ballard in the face. He's so self-righteous, talking about 'I have to bring down the Dollhouse'. Yeah, well, way to be the bright white defender of good buddy, going to work for the supposed devil.
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xaphania
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Post by xaphania on Oct 6, 2009 14:04:35 GMT -5
Just finished watching the episode - really enjoyed it. I liked it a lot more than a lot of the standalone season 1 episodes, and Eliza's acting in this was very good.
The baby was so cute! Such an adorable smile.
I also thought that the bump on the head will affect Madeleine. Not too sure what I think of her character now.
I'm still finding Alexis Denisof's accent strange!
Anyway, really enjoyed this episode, there were a couple of iffy things but on the whole I liked it.
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Post by Rebecca on Oct 6, 2009 15:51:47 GMT -5
I really loved this episode. I don't think Ballard not being able to get her to take a treatment should be testament to Echo not trusting him as much as she did Boyd. Boyd wasn't there, we can't conclude anything of the sort. Instead, what was alluded to was that it was the intense maternal instinct that was overriding everything else. It even overtook Echo's primary "personality," which is usually very cognizant of the many-personality state, not allowing any one to dictate her thoughts and actions. This episode was unprecedented. I still love November. She looked great in that dress, and her acting as Melanie was colder than the warm Mellie.... I think that's called acting lol I'm glad to see that she'll be coming back, and I can't wait to see how things go. Topher had some really awesome lines, and seeing him getting knocked out was priceless. I agree with the "Mommy's home" and lightning comment, it was a bit much, however I counter that bit of writing/directing with Eliza's amazing acting this episode. I think it's the best I've seen yet from her. Love Denisof's character, I'm glad they are exploring it and giving him depth. I wonder who gave him the stack of files? my only question after Adelle's freaky speech about children that aren't 'imprinted' with love being socio-paths is WTF Scientology?!?! There was a lot of dubious theory in the episode but it worked in character context... i just hope that's all it was. This actually stems from accurate developmental and forensic psychology, however the lack of bonding doesn't necessitate sociopathy. I was just reading on this subject yesterday, lol! (Xi is the expert on biology, I'm a studying to be an expert on psychology.) If you're interested in reading up the subject, click on the spoiler tab. I got keyboard-happy Bartol (2008) says that with less interaction between parent and newborn, the child as it develops may have delayed language proficiency, which may impede prosocial development, increase hostility and aggression, and delay self-regulation development. As a result, the parent finds it difficult to control the child as he or she acts out, emotionally abandoning them. Aggressive children (who lack prosocial skills) are also rejected by their peers, reinforcing hostility and antisocial behavioral patterns. Those children reach out to other antisocial children, and become delinquents. As the author stated it, "social-environmental influences--such as divorce, poverty, or parental depression--work in combination with inept parenting and deviant peer socialization to engender different levels of delinquent and antisocial behavior" (Bartol, 2008, p. 234). If the bond between parent and child is not solidified in early months, juvenile delinquency is a very real possibility.
Recent research indicates that not all juvenile delinquents continue antisocial behavior into adulthood, however some do; they are otherwise known as "life course-persistent offenders" (LCPs), differentiating from childhood-onset (prior to age 10) or adolescence-onset (post age 10); the term LCP is closely aligned with anti-social personality disorder (ASP). [Those who do not continue crime into adulthood are referred to as "adolescent-limited" and pursue normal adulthood (believed to be accessible by prosocial skills developed as self-regulation is acquired).]
It should be noted that the definition of ASP is more general than the definition of psychopathy. ASP is defined, as cited by Bartol (2008), as "a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood" (Americal Psychiatric Association, 1994, p. 645). Alternatively, Bartol (2008), citing Gretton (2001), states that criminal psychopaths "lack a normal sense of ethics and morality, live by their own rules, are prone to use cold-blooded, instrumental intimidation and violence to satisfy their wants and needs, and generally are contemptuous of social norms and the rights of others" (p. 254). The definition of psychopathy is narrower than ASP; therefore, although lack of a parental figure and neonatal bonding may increase the probability of juvenile delinquency and possibly a lifetime of cognitive and social issues, it doesn't necessitate that the child will become a sociopath. In fact, psychopathy is believed to have both a genetic and environmental origination.
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Oct 7, 2009 0:06:24 GMT -5
I loved:
The happy baby Alexis D. Eliza's acting The writing
Did not like: The lightning thing when Echo came back.
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CourtneyDax
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Post by CourtneyDax on Oct 9, 2009 19:58:58 GMT -5
Not to make this a short post but I have to say that ever since watching the thirteenth episode, every episode after that seems like foreshadowing. Knowing everyone's fate is so saddening. Especially the way Topher acted in this episode. His arrogance is his downfall, you can just read the thoughts in his head. I'm pretty sure he thinks he's god at this moment. It's so strange having Alexis play as an American. I keep waiting for him to drop the accent and go back to being British. I'm so intrigued by this plot line. I have no idea where this will go. I feel like Joss is going to throw a curve ball at us though.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Oct 9, 2009 22:18:36 GMT -5
Not to make this a short post but I have to say that ever since watching the thirteenth episode, every episode after that seems like foreshadowing. Knowing everyone's fate is so saddening. Especially the way Topher acted in this episode. His arrogance is his downfall, you can just read the thoughts in his head. I'm pretty sure he thinks he's god at this moment. It's so strange having Alexis play as an American. I keep waiting for him to drop the accent and go back to being British. I'm so intrigued by this plot line. I have no idea where this will go. I feel like Joss is going to throw a curve ball at us though. I hope you thought differently after 2x03. E1 isn't the Bible or the Constitution, nothing's going to happen exactly as it did in that episode. Also, Alexis Denisof is American, not British. The way he's speaking in Dollhouse is the way he naturally speaks.
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