rufio
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 205
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Post by rufio on Sept 25, 2009 22:49:56 GMT -5
I'm confused about the claire/dr.saunders/whiskey character...was the guy that alpha butchered the original dr.saunders? Does that mean that amy acker is actually playing a male character-in a female body??
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Post by Wyndam on Sept 25, 2009 22:59:38 GMT -5
I'm confused about the claire/dr.saunders/whiskey character...was the guy that alpha butchered the original dr.saunders? Does that mean that amy acker is actually playing a male character-in a female body?? Not really. You are partly right that Alpha butchered the original Dr. Saunders, but they created a completely new persona for Whiskey's Dr. Saunders that shared traits with the original Saunders. So the dead doctor wasn't just copied into Whiskey.
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Post by lightandmagic on Sept 25, 2009 23:02:35 GMT -5
Rufio: The guy that Alpha butchered was Dr. Saunders killing him. Adelle needed a new doctor and quickly, someone who was really good at their job and effective, Topher therefore made Whiskey into a doctor, although not the same as the previous doctor, just very similar in personality.
As for the episode itself, I found it a bit disappointing. The main story was just kinda boring, and the climax was way too short-lived to be worth it. Although, I am definitely gonna give kudos to Eliza for her acting in this episode (minus her in her blank slate with Whiskey) as I thought it was way above her usual standard. Especially her scene when she's trying to unlock the drawer, and he then smashes her head on the desk. I thought it was really well acted.
And wow. If I didn't think Amy Acker was the best Whedonverse actor before this, I definitely would have thought so after this episode. She was brilliant in every scene, I'm glad we saw so much of her. Also, it was a good 'exit' for her character, with her driving away.
I'm still not liking Ballard's character. Didn't like him all Season 1, and I was hoping this season would endear him to me more as he's supposed to be the hero, but he still seems annoying, and Tahmoh overacts in my opinion. I loved the conversation between him and Adelle in her office where she essentially puts him in his place.
I think it's a step up from last season though, especially when I compare it to Ghost. So here's hoping! I'd probably give it a 7/10.
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Sept 26, 2009 1:18:07 GMT -5
I think Topher is Whiskey's brother. I've felt that way since before Dragon*Con, but Dr. Saunders kind of foreshadowed some more in this episode.
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Post by Emmie on Sept 26, 2009 1:32:44 GMT -5
Hmm. I don't quite understand how Claire would have a saying in it. It's not her body, is it? She said so herself, that she was afraid to give up the body, even though it isn't hers. Would Adelle let her run away with someone else's body? It's her body. She's just had the same imprint for so long that the imprint is more real to her than the body (and the personality that originally went with it.) It's actually not her body. She's not the original personality. She's a created amalgamation of the male Dr. Saunders and whatever else Topher created her to be. The body belongs to the mysterious personality that Claire Saunders doesn't want to discover because she doesn't "want to die". She is Claire Saunders. That's all she knows. If she's wiped and the original personality (who is someone else) is restored, Claire Saunders ceases to exist. Claire Saunders is a body snatcher, essentially. It'd be the same as Topher putting the male Dr. Saunders amalgamation within Echo. That's not Caroline. It's Caroline's body, the Dr. Saunders amalgamation would be the body snatcher. As Echo says, she feels all the people inside her, but they're not really her. Dr. Claire Saunders isn't really her within Whiskey's body. The person who does belong in the body is a mystery still and may never be restored. We don't question this because Dr. Claire Saunders in Whiskey's body is all we know. But it's not the person in that body when she was born. Not the personality of 5 years ago. That person is on a cartridge somewhere, imprisoned. It asks the question - what makes a person real? What is identity? Does Saunders have the right to coopt the body of the mystery girl? Is she in fact stealing the body by running away with it?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 26, 2009 8:33:26 GMT -5
It all comes down to one of the central questions posed by this series... what constitutes the "self", a.k.a. the "soul"? The cartridge is basically a complete collection of memories. But is the soul more than just a pattern of memories and experiences?
When Echo started to become self-aware, the "Caroline" original personality was supposedly not within her... it had been wiped. So who was that person whose self-awareness was starting to shine through?
My theory is that imprinting a person does not, in fact, wipe the previous personality... it just suppresses it. The fact that "glitching" occurs... dolls having memory flashes of previous imprints... proves that. Somewhere within each Active is the kernel of the original personality... the soul. But does that kernel also exist in the stored imprint? In "Haunted," was dead Margaret's soul present when she was in Echo, or was it just a pattern of memories giving the illusion of self-awareness?
I think Claire's pre-Whiskey self... and its soul... is still there in Claire's body, overlayed with a bunch of fake memories. In that sense, it's not a stolen body... just a deluded one.
(Can you imagine if the Dollhouse people were thumbing through an archive of cartridges and went past one labelled "Winifred Burkle"? I know Joss would never do something like that, but it'd be worth it just to see the fan reaction...)
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Post by CowboyGuy on Sept 26, 2009 10:52:30 GMT -5
I thought it was funny when Echo said "And I'm the Mrs" in the beginning of the episode. A Buffy throwback!
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Post by Rebecca on Sept 26, 2009 10:57:39 GMT -5
There is definitely a separation of mind (memories, personality), body, and soul. Where the soul lies during the wiping process is hard to tell. How do you measure that? The Dollhouse tech can measure the mind and move it completely, but can they move the soul?
[Andrew, I don't think that memories are suppressed. If that were the case, why would they store original memories in a wedge?]
If the mind is in fact removed, I believe the body and soul remain intact, especially in the latest batch of Actives (Sierra, Victor, Echo, November), as evidenced by "Needs". Only these particular Actives have been glitching, having these "needs" that any soul would have under these conditions, unlike other Actives within the Dollhouse.
Adelle: "This is Caroline--minus the memories--but it's her."
I also believe the soul is intact within Echo in particular. In "Omega," I got the clear sense that Caroline's soul was in Echo, 'keeping the porch light on.' I don't think the body would have enough cognizance to make that kind of connection, as Echo seems to do on a daily basis. Also, Alpha's original personality's soul seems to have been intact as well, seeing the commonalities (complete psychopath, likes to cut up women) between Alpha and his original counterpart.
What this says for the other Actives' souls, I dunno. We honestly haven't seen enough of them. The only one with screen time seems to be Whiskey, who apparently has no personality other than the one with which Topher imprinted her. She's glitch-free.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Sept 26, 2009 11:04:34 GMT -5
I think this is the reason why Echo is the lab-rat so to speak, she is an anomaly and they want to figure out why she retains her memories even though she is repeatedly wiped. Has there been an instance of this happening with November, Sierra or Victor (my love)? LOL
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Post by VampSlayer on Sept 26, 2009 11:32:19 GMT -5
It's her body. She's just had the same imprint for so long that the imprint is more real to her than the body (and the personality that originally went with it.) It's actually not her body. She's not the original personality. She's a created amalgamation of the male Dr. Saunders and whatever else Topher created her to be. The body belongs to the mysterious personality that Claire Saunders doesn't want to discover because she doesn't "want to die". She is Claire Saunders. That's all she knows. If she's wiped and the original personality (who is someone else) is restored, Claire Saunders ceases to exist. Claire Saunders is a body snatcher, essentially. It'd be the same as Topher putting the male Dr. Saunders amalgamation within Echo. That's not Caroline. It's Caroline's body, the Dr. Saunders amalgamation would be the body snatcher. As Echo says, she feels all the people inside her, but they're not really her. Dr. Claire Saunders isn't really her within Whiskey's body. The person who does belong in the body is a mystery still and may never be restored. We don't question this because Dr. Claire Saunders in Whiskey's body is all we know. But it's not the person in that body when she was born. Not the personality of 5 years ago. That person is on a cartridge somewhere, imprisoned. It asks the question - what makes a person real? What is identity? Does Saunders have the right to coopt the body of the mystery girl? Is she in fact stealing the body by running away with it? Thanks you, Emmie! I wasn't sure how to explain what I was getting at, so thanks. I agree 100% with your post. *Karmas*
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Post by Rebecca on Sept 26, 2009 11:38:40 GMT -5
I think this is the reason why Echo is the lab-rat so to speak, she is an anomaly and they want to figure out why she retains her memories even though she is repeatedly wiped. Has there been an instance of this happening with November, Sierra or Victor (my love)? LOL Not necessarily retaining memories, but definitely different from the rest of the Dollhouse. Remember, they were grouping in "Ghost," and Victor was subconsciously pining after Sierra before exposure to the N-7316 drug in "Man on the Street."
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deathisyourgift
Ensouled Vampire
to read makes our speaking English good!
Timothy Dalton should win an Oscar and beat Sean Connery over the head with it!!-Andrew[Mo0:37]
Posts: 1,166
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Post by deathisyourgift on Sept 26, 2009 12:06:39 GMT -5
I have to say that the main plot was pretty boring, except for the confrontation scene in the office. Eliza's frantic explanation of how the picture of her and Ballard came to be was superbly acted, and then she slips up and says the wrong name! Excellent writing, perfect performance, I really loved that scene.
I thought the Topher/Claire scene was pretty awesome, especially how Topher really broke things down for Claire, and Claire realized that she has options.
I love Paul Ballard, I love his determination, his b@lls-out style, his lips....well, that's just my love for Tahmoh, anyways...I thought it was cool that Paul figured out how to read Echo's actions without all that tech mumbo-jumbo Topher and the handler's use. He knew that something was wrong without knowing what was going on, which proves that he and Echo have some unnatural connection. Also, he brings out the assassin imprint=awesomness. The scene between Echo and Ballard in the Dollhouse right before he swears in as her watch---sorry, I mean handler was really touching, and the fact that Echo basically chose him to be her handler says a lot.
I give 2x01 "Vows" 8/10 -better than most of s1, and definitely a great kickoff to the new season.
-Jen
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Just Willow
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Look to the Western Sky
[Mo0:22]
Posts: 2,575
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Post by Just Willow on Sept 26, 2009 12:43:54 GMT -5
hey guys! i watched it online, and the video was really pixellated, so i didn't get to see what the note that Boyd found said! what did it say?
AWESOME episode, though!
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Post by hitnrun017 on Sept 26, 2009 12:50:31 GMT -5
hey guys! i watched it online, and the video was really pixellated, so i didn't get to see what the note that Boyd found said! what did it say? AWESOME episode, though! I'm almost 100% sure it said: "I am running out Of Excuses"
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Skeptic
Initiative Soldier
[Mo0:24]
Posts: 344
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Post by Skeptic on Sept 26, 2009 13:00:57 GMT -5
Re-watching the ep on Hulu right now, because I found the premiere to be a bit underwhelming as far as premieres usually go. What I saw last night seemed more like a mid-season stretch, and seemed kind of slow and overly complex to be a season kickoff. I'm just rewatching because it helps the ratings, and also I'm trying to figure out some plot points I think I missed.
There was still a lot that I liked about it. Amy Acker's portrayal of Whiskey/Claire quietly going off the deep end was one. The fight choreography was excellent. Jamie Bamber's guest spot was exciting, although his character was creepy. Alexis Denisof's short appearance was cool, and I'm looking forward to seeing more of him.
I really don't recall this season opener being pimped at all by Fox, though. In fact, the only ad I remember seeing was just right before the ep aired.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 26, 2009 14:22:03 GMT -5
[Andrew, I don't think that memories are suppressed. If that were the case, why would they store original memories in a wedge?] They're supposed to be wiped, not suppressed. But clearly they aren't wiped, or glitching would be impossible. You can't have memories that no longer exist in your brain. It's like when you delete a file from a computer hard drive... the space is cleared on the drive, and you can't access the file by looking for it... but it's still there, and can be recovered if you know how to do it. I think this is the reason why Echo is the lab-rat so to speak, she is an anomaly and they want to figure out why she retains her memories even though she is repeatedly wiped. Has there been an instance of this happening with November, Sierra or Victor (my love)? LOL As far as I can recall only in "Echoes" when they were exposed to that "drug." The attraction between Sierra and Victor seems to be a function of their default passive personalities and doesn't cross over into their imprints. I think it will in the future, though, as the other dolls begin to be more self-aware.
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worldofshrimps
Potential Slayer
Spangel Fan
"This is nice. I like seeing you in the morning."[Mo0:11]
Posts: 117
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Post by worldofshrimps on Sept 26, 2009 14:42:44 GMT -5
I, personally, thought it was a fantastic episode. I loved the scene with Topher and Whiskey/Dr Saunders, the scene where Echo was "malfunctioning" and all of her imprints were coming to the surface. I am one of the people who actually like Paul Ballard...I think he's a strong actor but I want to know what his original motivation for hunting down the Dollhouse from season 1...was that explained or am I right in saying he has no precedent? I loved the closing scene for the episode as well! The conversation between Paul and Echo where he promises to help her find Caroline And I thought Whiskey/Dr Saunders driving off was a good scene. I loved her acting in this one! I can't believe I didn't see how strong her acting was in Angel but she is incredibly adaptable and takes on new personas really well! Overall, I'd give it a 9/10...I really did love it!
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Post by Rebecca on Sept 26, 2009 14:51:29 GMT -5
[Andrew, I don't think that memories are suppressed. If that were the case, why would they store original memories in a wedge?] They're supposed to be wiped, not suppressed. But clearly they aren't wiped, or glitching would be impossible. You can't have memories that no longer exist in your brain. It's like when you delete a file from a computer hard drive... the space is cleared on the drive, and you can't access the file by looking for it... but it's still there, and can be recovered if you know how to do it. I guess you're right. But I don't think I'd call it suppressed so much, as then there would be a barrier to those memories with the full memories below. I think instead this is more like the analogy Caroline offered us: Have you ever tried to clean an actual slate? You can always see what was on it before.
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elenasaur
Ensouled Vampire
I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.[Mo0:30]
Posts: 1,565
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Post by elenasaur on Sept 26, 2009 15:16:17 GMT -5
I really liked this episode. Whiskey/Claire's storyline is very interesting, and Amy Acker is an amazing actress. The scene with her and Topher was great, because she kind of realized that even though she was technically a doll, she still had options. And I thought it was interesting that she had enough self-awareness to want to exist, despite her body sort of being someone else's. It adds a new twist to things that I hadn't thought of before.
On the other hand, I am getting incredibly sick of Paul Ballard. I don't know if its just because I loved Boyd as Echo's handler, though I think it probably has something to do with it. Mostly, I'm just concerned about his feelings for Echo. He fell in love with Echo, or the concept of her, but now I feel like he's using and abusing her as some sort of experimentation. Say you want to save her from that place, but then keep her there? I guess he just seems hypocritical to me. At the beginning of season 1 I thought he was this trust-worthy, heart of gold, courageous type guy, but then he starts falling into all the shades of gray along with everyone else, but hangs on to his holier-than-thou attitude. He has been getting on my nerves for too long now.
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Post by Midnight Butterfly on Sept 26, 2009 16:26:19 GMT -5
I really like this episode. It seemed alot more solid than any of the season one episodes. The acting was ALOT better in my opinion and Eliza seems to be getting alot better at the different people thing. This episode made me like Topher even more, like alot more. I feel really bad for Whiskey. The ending was great, when Boyd said he would help her find the rest and became her handler. It got me major hyped about the rest of the series. I cant wait to see what happens next. I really am hoping that the rest of the season is just as good if not then better
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