Season 8 and ATF/Aftermath; how do things line up?

[wenxina]

Depends on how you define canon, I guess.

[AndrewCrossett]

Jun 12, 2010 19:21:49 GMT -5 thevampirewithsoul said:

I thought that the Gunn story in issue # 23 was canon.

#23 is really part of AtF (the Epilogue). It's part of the story Brian Lynch created with Joss. So yes, it should be considered canon.

[wenxina]

Jun 12, 2010 20:30:14 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Jun 12, 2010 19:21:49 GMT -5 thevampirewithsoul said:

I thought that the Gunn story in issue # 23 was canon.

#23 is really part of AtF (the Epilogue). It's part of the story Brian Lynch created with Joss. So yes, it should be considered canon.

Pretty sure that #23 was the patch-up job to sync up the events of "AtF" with "Aftermath".

[AndrewCrossett]

Jun 12, 2010 20:48:39 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Pretty sure that #23 was the patch-up job to sync up the events of "AtF" with "Aftermath".

Still, #23 is the last issue (and only one after #17) that shows Joss's own fingerprints on the story.

I consider the whole After the Fall story to be a collaborative, canonical work by Brian and Joss. Even "Spike: After the Fall," which Joss didn't co-plot, because it's a part of the same whole.

So I'd say that includes Angel 1-17 and 23, and the Spike miniseries. That's what I include in my Buffyverse cast and character indexes, at least.

[wenxina]

And therein lies the problem with canon vs. fanon, with no actual definitive word on the matter.

[AndrewCrossett]

Since most of us accept that Joss is the ultimate arbiter of canon, the test for me is this: will he consider a particular work to be Buffyverse history when he writes future stories?

Obviously, that's not the case for stories that he's not even bothering to read (such as all of the IDW Angel series after the end of his collaboration with Brian.) Since he's plotting his Buffyverse story himself, he won't recognize stuff written by others without his input or supervision, and is free to directly contradict it if he wants to.

IDW and Willingham got annoyed because their current Angel line might not be 100% in continuity with Joss's season 8 story... but honestly, they had no right to expect it to be, any more than Dark Horse could expect their old pre-season 8 Buffy comics to be in continuity with the TV series. They were producing their own stories based on a business license with 20th Century Fox. That has nothing to do with Joss and his story. The same holds true right now for IDW.

Spike: AtF and #23 were conceived, written, and published during the period when Joss was working directly with Brian and IDW. He was aware of these stories as they were being written, and there was no chance that he was going to contradict them. Therefore, I consider them canon. We also know that Joss has read "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets," liked them, and is very unlikely to write anything that directly contradicts them. But they weren't written under his supervision, so they can't be considered true canon unless he explicitly says he recognizes them as such.

This is the best we can do, since Joss is never going to come out and say that some publisher's work isn't canon. That would be professionally discourteous, and would cost both the publisher, and Fox, sales revenue. I'm sure he has no desire to do that.

[Paul]

Joss' name wasn't on #23 or Spike. So you can't really play the Whedon card to include them in canon. And if you're going to say that they're an extension of the After the Fall story, the same could be said of any of Lynch's later issues, which all relate to that story arc in some way.

Don't get me wrong, I count them both as canon, but if you're going to treat canon as a black and white objective issue, you can't bend the rules like that. The only definitively canon Angel comics are AtF #1-17 - the ones with Whedon's name on the cover. Others, like the Spike trilogy and Brian's later Angel issues are canonically blurry.

[wenxina]

What Paul said. Joss also like Betta George, and told Lynch to "use the fish". But that doesn't make "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" (did the fish appear in both? Never read them) retroactively canon. Not unless there's a statement that says, "Hey, these stories are canon". Joss liked them, liked Lynch's handle of the characters, and so the "AtF" gig naturally went to Lynch.
But eh... canon debates are a dime a dozen.

[AndrewCrossett]

Jun 13, 2010 16:45:34 GMT -5 wenxina said:

What Paul said. Joss also like Betta George, and told Lynch to "use the fish". But that doesn't make "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" (did the fish appear in both? Never read them) retroactively canon. Not unless there's a statement that says, "Hey, these stories are canon". Joss liked them, liked Lynch's handle of the characters, and so the "AtF" gig naturally went to Lynch.

That's what I said, re: Asylum and Shadow Puppets. Honestly, I consider #23 canon because Brian said in a post that it was a part of the story he and Joss came up with. Spike: AtF you can argue about, but I consider it canon because it intertwines so closely with the Angel: AtF story, and it did so at a time when Joss was actively participating in the story.

[BlueJay]

Well to answer the OP, it's currently like this.

Canon Storyline
Buffy Season Seven ==> Angel Season Five ==> Angel: After the Fall #1-17 ==> Buffy Season Eight (in its entirety)

Expanded Storyline
Buffy Season Seven ==> Angel Season Five, with Spike: Asylum and Spike: Shadow Puppets set during this season ==> Angel #24-25 ==> Spike: After the Fall ==> Angel: After the Fall #1-17, 23 ==> Angel: Only Human ==> Angel: Aftermath #18-22 ==> Angel #26-28, Annual, Lorne Special ==> Brian Willingham's run on Angel #29-present ==> Buffy Season Eight (in its entirety)

I prefer the expanded storyline even though a lot of the stories are not Whedon-approved. I personally don't think they need to be.

[tamara]

I figured since IDW is continuing what Joss started that it would be canon still. Even if he wasn't involved anymore, they are still playing off what he started. If future issues contradict Season Eight though, then I think I'll think differently. (I kind of wish they could be by the same publishers sometimes.--Especially with IDW throwing out so many extra titles all the time, it's a little hard to keep up.)

Also I thought I read somewhere that because Betta George was in the new series, and what happened in Asylum and Shadow Puppets was loosly refrenced in the new series, that they were made canon.

[AndrewCrossett]

Everything plays off what Joss started, though. Including fanfiction.

[tamara]

Yeah, but I mean directly. It's the same series he started. It's not like they started back with an issue #1, they kept going from where he left the story.

[wenxina]

And that's why some fans have accused IDW of duplicity. By continuing the numbering, some people think that IDW intentionally misled some. That's the opinion of some people. Not one shared by everyone.

But... Joss was only directly involved with the plotting of "AtF". Everything since then, has pretty much been writers pitching a story, the plot being approved, and the story written, drawn, inked, colored, lettered, printed, and sold. IDW is doing their best to take the ANGEL franchise to new places, but they're not necessarily canon merely because they continued the numbering.
Joss can very well just dismiss everything written since "AtF". But it doesn't sound like he will be that discourteous. Back when the #34 covers fiasco happened, Joss and Allie both stated that things will be made to work, that IDW will be given enough to continue telling their stories.

[tamara]

I didn't even know until recently that Joss was no longer involved. If I hadn't thought that he was still involved (even not directly) I might have quit reading it, because most of the time I don't understand whats even going on. (Or enjoy the story, or art.. no offense to anyone that does.) But I'm so far in now I kind of need to see how it plays out.
What is this #34 cover fiasco you speak of?

Back to the original topic, I think I have things figured out now. Since it doesn't look like the titles will line up I'm separating them in my mind. Like I do the other non-canonical stories from the main titles.

[wenxina]

Back in January, the real covers for S8 #34 were released accidentally. Mocked up versions were supposed to go out instead, but by some error, Dark Horse released the real covers instead, the ones revealing Twilight's identity. What followed can only aptly be described as a "shitstorm"... and Dark Horse did a short series of interviews all over the place, trying to do damage control. Some people commended them for it, some thought they were digging themselves into a deeper hole. It was probably a fair combination of both. If you like to read up on it, check out the linked articles HERE.
But long story short, Joss isn't trying to screw IDW over, and so I don't think he's going to just come out at say "Hey, only "AtF" is canon. Screw the rest."

[Smashed]

What I don't get is why people keep insisting that the SPIKE comics are canon! By that I mean Shadow Puppets and Asylum. Is this only because Beta George was in them and then he was made canon? It makes no sense at all. Doesn't that just make Beta George's only canon appearance ATF and the ones before weren't approved? Unless I missed where Joss said they were canon, I can't understand the logic behind "He was in these...they're canon. Even though nobody confirmed it". At all.

[AndrewCrossett]

The events of Asylum are referenced in the canonical AtF stories, not just in the presence of Betta George but in the actual appearance of the Mosaic Wellness Center and Bek, and the statement that Spike and George have a history together.

That doesn't technically make them canon, but many people consider them "honorary canon" because Joss knew about them, approved of them personally, and will pretty much certainly never write anything that contradicts them.

I don't consider them to be quite canon, but I don't argue with people who do just because it's not likely to ever be an issue. Unlike in the case of, say, the ongoing IDW Angel series... people who consider that canon will expect Angel and Spike's actions in season 8 and beyond to reflect stories written about them without Joss's involvement, and that's not gonna happen.

[Smashed]

Jun 19, 2010 20:44:49 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

The events of Asylum are referenced in the canonical AtF stories, not just in the presence of Betta George but in the actual appearance of the Mosaic Wellness Center and Bek, and the statement that Spike and George have a history together.

That doesn't technically make them canon, but many people consider them "honorary canon" because Joss knew about them, approved of them personally, and will pretty much certainly never write anything that contradicts them.

I don't consider them to be quite canon, but I don't argue with people who do just because it's not likely to ever be an issue. Unlike in the case of, say, the ongoing IDW Angel series... people who consider that canon will expect Angel and Spike's actions in season 8 and beyond to reflect stories written about them without Joss's involvement, and that's not gonna happen.

Ohh, okay! Thanks for the clarification. I missed the references.

[Shane]

CAUTION: Obligatory inaugural canon/non-canon whinging...

I thought of putting this in the IDW section but it may spoil all that excitement for IDW and/or Lynch and/or Spike fans.

I basically define canon as stories which Joss is willing to put his name to, regardless of who came up with the initial idea, who developed it and how popular it became. I consider AtF canon because he did seem to have control but just didn't exercise it fully. I may have to change my opinion if new info comes out but what we've been told is enough for me. IMO, those of Lynch's storylines which weren't supervised by Joss aren't canon because I think he may have edited/contradicted them if he had more say in matters and also because it's hard to tell which story elements weren't approved by Joss - I don't subscribe to the canon by extension theory.

It's kind of how I see Joss's ideas for the TV shows which weren't developed but would still fit in the general continuity. Or his current version of events leading up to Season 8 e.g. the Spike ongoing. If someone who's privy to these ideas develops them without him having creative control (over the entire book), I won't consider the (whole) work canon because I think he may have adopted a different version to suit later developments. But once they've made their way to a licensed product, he won't contradict it out of professional courtesy and to preserve continuity. (I doubt he's ever going to explicitly say he *doesn't* consider any official title canon - I think I even read that somewhere.) Contradicting Lynch's stories will still be retcon, IMO, but I wouldn't be able to tell which bits violate canon and which violate fanon.

But I've read all of Lynch's Buffyverse books because he has such a good handle on the characters and themes. And his AtF stories tied things up pretty neatly. IMO, they really stand apart from the rest of IDW's books (up to #30, anyway - haven't read the rest) which, I think, is part of the reason a lot of people distinguish it from non-canon. Joss's general likeness of his work also helps. And if at any time Joss says Lynch's work *should* be considered canon my reaction will be less "No way!" and more "Yeah, sounds about right".

Still, Joss has a very nonlinear, discontinuous method of storytelling and without his express approval, I'm reluctant to include any work which may limit any of his future ideas or explanations. YMMV. Hope that wasn't too inconsistent.

Thanks for reading.