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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 28, 2010 14:41:18 GMT -5
Well, obviously he still has his soul in canon. Angel lost his a couple of times and always got it back. That's the thing about writing non-canon stories: you can do just about anything you want with the characters, as long as in the end, you leave them the way you found them.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jul 28, 2010 14:57:59 GMT -5
I'm starting to think you structure your arguments in order to insert "Angel isn't canon, hey, hah look how non-canon this is, think it's canon, NOPE!" into your posts :-P
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 28, 2010 15:30:13 GMT -5
I'm starting to think you structure your arguments in order to insert "Angel isn't canon, hey, hah look how non-canon this is, think it's canon, NOPE!" into your posts :-P Well, do you really think Joss is gonna say "Oops... darn it, I have to go and re-write the rest of season 8 now because Bill Willingham decided that Spike has lost his soul?" Once again, saying "it's not canon" isn't the same as saying "it's not good." The canon story that Joss tells, on his own or in collaboration with other writers, is only obliged to be consistent with itself. (Hopefully.)
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Post by Emmie on Jul 28, 2010 15:39:42 GMT -5
Oh FFS! Negative response within spoilers: Like Spike not having his soul somehow explains why he gives a damn about prophecy now? It's always been "a bit of both", but his pursuit of prophecy has been about substance. Proving himself worthy through glory and sod all else. Hiring a bunch of Hollywood tools to fake a prophecy is not in character, soul or no. If it's fake, it doesn't mean anything. That's something Spike understands, the value of what's real, whether he has a soul or not. This is the guy willing to be tortured so that he can earn his soul, willing to dive into battle with a Slayer to prove he's got big brass ones. This is a guy who proves himself through actions, not false prophecies. Fail.The entourage of sychophantic scantily clad ladies in AtF was bad at first, but then it was shown that Spike was mostly using them as cover while he went out and fought the good fight. Willingham is hellbent on reducing Spike to a narcissistic sex doll.
Being soulless doesn't make Spike's behavior in character. *headdesks*
Bitsy, while I find it makes for an interesting story development to have Spike soulless, the execution of this story shows a serious lack of understanding of Spike. (If you find the idea intriguing, I'll be happy to direct you to some fanfic that explores this very idea while keeping Spike in character--oh, the writer is also British and talented with character voices besides, so it's miles above this tripe.) It's all well and good to see the potential of an idea, but the execution of this is shoddy as hell. And that's just in talking about the essence of character and not even getting into the character voices.
Attention Everyone: Remember that Marsters interview where he shares how Anthony Stewart Head helped him develop Spike's voice and accent? Yeah, Marsters is basically copying ASH's natural accent. And ASH told the writers to stop writing their characters saying "arse" because they wouldn't say it. Spike doesn't say "arse". Yes, it's British slang. No, it's never been said by Spike on BtVS or AtS. Not all British slang words fit Spike's character, thanks.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Jul 28, 2010 15:51:12 GMT -5
Well, do you really think Joss is gonna say "Oops... darn it, I have to go and re-write the rest of season 8 now because Bill Willingham decided that Spike has lost his soul?" No, I think that Spike will have a soul by that time. By the end of Willingham's arc, for sure.
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
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Post by neowhobaz on Jul 28, 2010 16:31:28 GMT -5
ok...we are all clear this was a line at the end of an issue left as a cliffhanger without explanation right?
Not defending Willingham. Not saying Spike didnt earn his soul. Just saying that this was said without I repeat without explanation lol. I find it funny how everyone seems so willing to assume that this is exactly how the story is going to play out. We all have to remember...in the buffyverse regardless of who's at the helm be it Joss...Brian..or Whomever..that things are NEVER black and white..theres always twists and turns and shades of gray.
I have no problem jumping on the condemn willingham train if Spike goes soulless next issue but until then I'd prefer to be on the side of the level headed not angry mob type.
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bitsy
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 137
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Post by bitsy on Jul 28, 2010 16:42:14 GMT -5
Oh FFS! Negative response within spoilers: Like Spike not having his soul somehow explains why he gives a damn about prophecy now? It's always been "a bit of both", but his pursuit of prophecy has been about substance. Proving himself worthy through glory and sod all else. Hiring a bunch of Hollywood tools to fake a prophecy is not in character, soul or no. If it's fake, it doesn't mean anything. That's something Spike understands, the value of what's real, whether he has a soul or not. This is the guy willing to be tortured so that he can earn his soul, willing to dive into battle with a Slayer to prove he's got big brass ones. This is a guy who proves himself through actions, not false prophecies. Fail.The entourage of sychophantic scantily clad ladies in AtF was bad at first, but then it was shown that Spike was mostly using them as cover while he went out and fought the good fight. Willingham is hellbent on reducing Spike to a narcissistic sex doll.
Being soulless doesn't make Spike's behavior in character. *headdesks*
Bitsy, while I find it makes for an interesting story development to have Spike soulless, the execution of this story shows a serious lack of understanding of Spike. (If you find the idea intriguing, I'll be happy to direct you to some fanfic that explores this very idea while keeping Spike in character--oh, the writer is also British and talented with character voices besides, so it's miles above this tripe.) It's all well and good to see the potential of an idea, but the execution of this is shoddy as hell. And that's just in talking about the essence of character and not even getting into the character voices.
Attention Everyone: Remember that Marsters interview where he shares how Anthony Stewart Head helped him develop Spike's voice and accent? Yeah, Marsters is basically copying ASH's natural accent. And ASH told the writers to stop writing their characters saying "arse" because they wouldn't say it. Spike doesn't say "arse". Yes, it's British slang. No, it's never been said by Spike on BtVS or AtS. Not all British slang words fit Spike's character, thanks. Emmie, I respect your opinion but I don't entirely agree with it. Are we passing judgment based off the two pages of preview dialogue from Spike? I haven't picked up the whole issue so that's all I can really talk about (other than the final reveal, obviously). To me, if we reduce the near endless amount of monologue-ing (and yes, the "arse" issue which I was not aware of until just now) then I personally don't find this completely out of character. To me, Spike is not being a pure narcissist, he's just screwing with the status quo. The world wants a hero with prophecies? Alright, then, I'll show you prophecies. Here, have a dozen, a hundred, a bloody thousand. Now whose the hero? I don't find that to be so profoundly un-Spike-like. I think there's an insecurity Spike has because he doesn't appear in prophecy and, while in many ways he's proud that he makes his own destiny, sometimes I do think he longs for the attention that comes with being the guy who gets the Shanshu bugaboo in the end. This is all speculation and interpretation on my part, granted, but I feel like a soulless Spike is a Spike whose wants and desires become perverted without a sense of morality to keep them in check. That explains the sex and the torture to me and I think, to an extent, it explains why he's suddenly so bent on one upping Angel in this particular manner. If we're talking about execution then, sure, yes, I agree there are problems, even big ones at times. It's tricky for me to have this conversation because I know some of the people who make this series. I'm defensive of them and I hear their sides to things, too. What I will say is this: I think it's for the best that Bill Willingham be off the book because he's far more interested in making these characters his own than he is with keeping them the way they were on the show. Mariah and David are not like that and, as such, I am giving them the opportunity to take this story and spin it into gold. I'm looking forward to seeing where the Spike arc goes.
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
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Post by neowhobaz on Jul 28, 2010 18:12:13 GMT -5
Oh FFS! What I will say is this: I think it's for the best that Bill Willingham be off the book because he's far more interested in making these characters his own than he is with keeping them the way they were on the show. Mariah and David are not like that and, as such, I am giving them the opportunity to take this story and spin it into gold. I'm looking forward to seeing where the Spike arc goes. I agree. After reading Barbary Coast and hearing Mariah's constant enthusiasm to the series and characters I feel they see this as less of a chance to make the characters their own and more a chance to put their own spin on the characters they know and love and this seems to be the exact view and actions Brian lynch took and takes whenever he steps into the verse.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jul 28, 2010 18:37:01 GMT -5
I have become a Spike fan since the comics and this cliffhanger is an interesting one... for me anyway. We all know it's going to work out fine next arc.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 28, 2010 19:25:05 GMT -5
Bitsy, I'm gonna boil this down to one line: Spike is a character of action, not long, drawn-out paperwork plans. Conclusion: Fail. In terms of character motivation, Willingham is kinda sorta in the same ballpark. But the way he's manifesting Spike's insecurities is where it becomes problematic. Spike's always been insecure. This isn't new. His entire character is based upon his insecurities. But these insecurities manifest in the way he acts. The way he embodies his badass facade until the facade becomes reality. That's the problem. He knows these fake prophecies are false where as he's managed to convince himself he really is that badass. It's about the line when illusion becomes reality. With this storyline, there is no potential for Spike to buy into it. He knows it's a lie, what's more, one not convincingly told. Far better for him to fight to be the one the prophecy is about than to create false prophecies to gum up the works in appearance alone--because really, false prophecies are just about confusing the kiddies, not actually mucking up the status quo. It's the lack of substance to his actions that makes it unSpike. The reason Spike acts badass, throws himself into the mayhem, is that in believing himself to be badass, he then becomes badass. With these false prophecies, there is no opportunity for transformation--they will forever be false, and Spike's glory will forever be tarnished. And he'll always be aware that it wasn't worth it and he could've been dedicating himself to something more worthwhile. It's a surface layer, petty realization of a character with incredible depth and complexity. It makes it appear like all Spike cares about is being as famous as Angel. Except Spike also loves being a rebel which means living in defiance of prophecy. The 'Writing Faux Prophecies' schtick lacks flare, and let's call a spade a spade: it's lame. Soulless Spike of Season 6 would hang his head in shame if the best he could do as a rebel was hire a bunch of Hollywood writers to write some stories on a page. The selfsame soulless Spike of "All The Way" would shoot himself with a crossbow and repeat the line, "No. I'm a rebel. You're an idiot" with a sneer of superiority as the arrow drives home. Spike doesn't need to rely on a room full of Hollywood writers to tell a story about him. He wants to tell that story himself. He wants to live that story. To embody that story. And he wants that story to be real. This is why, to a large degree, James Marsters is Spike and Spike is James Marsters. They're both Method. Only Willingham's writing material more suited to a sellout actor with no respect for the artform.
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nmcil
Common Vampire
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Post by nmcil on Jul 28, 2010 21:44:31 GMT -5
Emmie:
"It's a surface layer, petty realization of a character with incredible depth and complexity. It makes it appear like all Spike cares about is being as famous as Angel."
We don't know how Mr. Willingham plans to complete his arc - but everything, IMO, regarding Spike has been "petty realization" a flat and pitiful characterization of one of the most complex and compelling character in all the Whedonverse. From the stupid "hearts Boxers" to the imbecilic "I am hot, sexy and pretty" - his characterization thus far, IMO, has reduced Spike to silhouette, a simple black form where I once saw a beautiful, powerful and complex character.
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Maggie
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Post by Maggie on Jul 29, 2010 1:21:50 GMT -5
Emmie is right-on with her assessment: IDW's version of soulless Spike is STILL OOC.
And I have to say that it seems to me that IDW is just scrambling as hard as they can to belittle the vampire who actually fought for his soul to distract attention away from the fact that their super shiny titular champion hero guy is the one who actually has a detachable soul because he was cursed with the damned thing. Maybe that's not what they're up to, but is it any coincidence at all that it's the Bangel and/or strongly pro-Angel fans who are delighted by this plot development?
Does anybody know how much distance Lynch has put between his Spike and this un-Spike? I'm not a huge fan of Lynch, but at least he mostly colors in the lines. I had been considering giving in and coughing up some nickels for his Spike series because of the ship tie-in, but now I'm back to thinking it would be a travesty of justice to support IDW in any way. I know Lynch can't come out and say that his Spike has nothing to do with BW's Spike -- but there are ways of broadly hinting in that direction. Anybody got any Lynch quotes on the subject?
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Post by VampSlayer on Jul 29, 2010 1:30:24 GMT -5
Emmie is right-on with her assessment: IDW's version of soulless Spike is STILL OOC. And I have to say that it seems to me that IDW is just scrambling as hard as they can to belittle the vampire who actually fought for his soul to distract attention away from the fact that their super shiny titular champion hero guy is the one who actually has a detachable soul because he was cursed with the damned thing. Maybe that's not what they're up to, but is it any coincidence at all that it's the Bangel and/or strongly pro-Angel fans who are delighted by this plot development? Does anybody know how much distance Lynch has put between his Spike and this un-Spike? I'm not a huge fan of Lynch, but at least he mostly colors in the lines. I had been considering giving in and coughing up some nickels for his Spike series because of the ship tie-in, but now I'm back to thinking it would be a travesty of justice to support IDW in any way. I know Lynch can't come out and say that his Spike has nothing to do with BW's Spike -- but there are ways of broadly hinting in that direction. Anybody got any Lynch quotes on the subject? "I will do my best to not contradict the story he is telling." I think that's all Brian has said on the matter.
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The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
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Post by The Night Lord on Jul 29, 2010 3:20:17 GMT -5
Wow, no wonder I left the comic. If I had read that, I would have set the comic on fire, for reasons that Emmie has stated wonderfully above and much better than I could have ever said. See, this is why I don't support IDW and trust them to tell a decent Angel story
At least with Lynch, the story will be great, so I'm looking forward to his
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Billie Erin
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Post by Billie Erin on Jul 29, 2010 5:55:13 GMT -5
Ok I'm going to buy this issue, then either burn it and withdraw my standing order for the Angel series or try to ride it out until we get the new writers. But honestly it seems like a waste of £2.99 I agree with Emmie, Spike cares about what's real so why would he make fake prophesies? Edit: I couldn't see the link anywhere on here so here is the link for the 5 page preview in case anybody wants it: issuu.com/idwpublishing/docs/angel35_final?viewMode=magazineHappy reading! I may not be keen on the direction this is all taking but if anybody can take pleasure from this arc then good for them.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 29, 2010 17:37:07 GMT -5
Buffyfest speaks to Huehner about the Spike reveal in #35 HERE. This was recorded at SDCC 2010, and is part 2 of the interview. Part 1 broke the news about the new Illyria mini-series.
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
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Post by neowhobaz on Jul 29, 2010 23:11:25 GMT -5
This is really good news...I mean as far oocness went we all thought it was just crap charicterization where as it was a plan. I'll be the first to say it blew me away and i reread the issues several times hoping to gleem something that was beneath the surface and this definetly wasn't the first guess by any means.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 29, 2010 23:11:49 GMT -5
So it confirms that the ending to this issue isn't a twist. Spike has in fact lost his soul and just didn't notice. Right. Okay, then.
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 594
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Post by neowhobaz on Jul 29, 2010 23:20:41 GMT -5
This will be one hell of a retcon to make up for the spike series unless he manages to keep it self contained in his run.
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Post by woundeddwarf on Jul 29, 2010 23:44:01 GMT -5
Ok I'm going to buy this issue, then either burn it and withdraw my standing order for the Angel series or try to ride it out until we get the new writers. But honestly it seems like a waste of £2.99 I agree with Emmie, Spike cares about what's real so why would he make fake prophesies? Spike with a soul cares about what's real, but can we truthfully say the same about un-souled Spike? Un-souled Spike wasn't concerned about what's real when he had Warren make the Buffybot. Spike without a soul isn't going to act like Spike with a soul, and it's bound to affect the way he thinks.
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