veiriti
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Post by veiriti on Nov 4, 2010 15:15:26 GMT -5
I hope no one of these characters will die... especially Spike and Buffy, who are my most favorite characters! These two are so sweet together! And I love and Willow and Giles as well. I don't want they to die... I hope Angel will get his road of broody redemption far away of Buffy and the others . As Mr. Jeanty said "Oh Angel will have a lot to atone for once he gets his own book." and "he does the tortured vampire thing so well."
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Post by abuffyfan on Nov 4, 2010 16:42:24 GMT -5
Yep... they're going to take us through a story that lasts nearly five years, and then give us an ending that makes us feel like crap. I can't wait! Sad to say, this hits the nail on the head. I find myself waiting in some trepidation for the next issue which is supposed to make me feel 'ill' or 'devastated' and wondering if it is time to really call it a day with this series. But, I probably won't ! Why even bother calling it a day when there's only 2 issues left and you've already devoted 4 years of your life to it? I've been underwhelmed but I'm not going to drop the book.
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Post by Peroxide Princess on Nov 4, 2010 16:53:32 GMT -5
Peroxide Princess, you forgot about the episode “Destiny” on Angel season 5 where Spike has kicked Angel’s arse. It could be symbolical – the free will (Spike) is stronger than the destiny (Angel). Wow, that whole free will vs. destiny - blew - my - mind! I think you're right on with that. Especially considering how Angle was cursed with a soul and Spike chose to fight for one. I loved that episode, but never came to that conclusion. I was just hoping that Spike would be the prophesied vampire.
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veiriti
Potential Slayer
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Post by veiriti on Nov 4, 2010 18:12:57 GMT -5
Peroxide Princess, you forgot about the episode “Destiny” on Angel season 5 where Spike has kicked Angel’s arse. It could be symbolical – the free will (Spike) is stronger than the destiny (Angel). Wow, that whole free will vs. destiny - blew - my - mind! I think you're right on with that. Especially considering how Angle was cursed with a soul and Spike chose to fight for one. I loved that episode, but never came to that conclusion. I was just hoping that Spike would be the prophesied vampire. Thanks! About the souls - Angel never wanted his soul (he never chose to have one)- he has been cursed with it, he has been cursed to being a good man, unlike Spike who fought for his soul to be a better man - he chose to have a soul. That's a free will. And I think that you're right - maybe the words "the keeper of the prophesy " show that Spike would fulfill the Shanshu prophesy in the end - S. Allie said "former vampire" reference to Spike was a mistake, but I think it was a kind of spoiler. Sorry, maybe some people here wouldn't like this, but after everything that Angel/Twilight has done in the name of "the greatest good" - I mean killing people, almost destroying the world, etc, I don't see him to become a human, because he's far away of the humanity now. And I don't think that he and Buffy have a future... yeah, she had a sex with him (sex, not a love!) under the influence of Twilight, but in the end of this issue we've seen the rude awakening... Now I only hope Twangel to don't harm Buffy and Spike. Maybe both of them will stop him...
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Post by Mr. Savath Bunny on Nov 4, 2010 18:50:24 GMT -5
when Willow is saying all that chanting stuff in front of the seed, I WISH she had said something like "I... your new protector will keep you from harm," or something along those lines. With the Master being there in shackles and his eyes -not- red and Willows eyes -all- red ... I think it might be her way of almost exchanging the Master's role as protector and taking it into her own hands (because she wants the seed safe just that bad).
I think it would add a better climax to 39 if Buffy discovered that her best friend has linked herself to such an item the could in fact kill Buffy or Angel (supposedly).
Also, as far as the Fray future history event where the magick, demons and slayer disappear? Maybe the seed will break but Willow / Buffy will get sucked into a different dimension and Xander will be left in our world with Dawn. It would make sense with all the break away titles for S9 maybe? Lul speculation
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richie
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Post by richie on Nov 4, 2010 22:29:53 GMT -5
i dont agree that shanshuu its for spike... i think its all about angel... it always was about angel.... and it will always be..... maybe spike would get a shashuu for him too... but-IMHO- i think it was always for him.... maybe youre guys are all right... and he is now FARRRRRRRRRRRR awayyyyyyyyy to get his humanity now... but nobody said it was easy(like the scientist).... i still like angel.... and i think he will have a lot to atone.... but thats that.... i have so much high hopes for the end of this season.... a i think joss could ruin my christmas... if 39 live up to the hype.... well and giles and/or xander dies.... well i can see my childhood heroes go kaplowey..... i dont want them to die.... i like them too much to see them die....
till today im recovering from tara's death...
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Post by drywallman on Nov 5, 2010 0:23:53 GMT -5
Peroxide Princess, you forgot about the episode “Destiny” on Angel season 5 where Spike has kicked Angel’s arse. It could be symbolical – the free will (Spike) is stronger than the destiny (Angel). I haven’t read the issue yet, but reading the summaries, I’m assuming Spike is not able to fight Angel right now – Spike is a regular vampire while Angel is duped with these super-twilight powers. But even that Spike still tried to defend Buffy facing Super-Twangel fearlessness. If Angel was a common vampire I’m sure Spike would kick his arse again. Just because Spike managed to barely beat Angel once doesn't mean he can beat him again. I don't even particularly like Angel, but you seem to have these unrealistic expectations of Spike because he's your favorite character.
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Post by loveisabird on Nov 5, 2010 8:54:54 GMT -5
I see a triangle of happenings in the finale: we have Buffy (and Spike) in the center while the three points are that Willow wants to protect the seed, Twilight (through Angel) wants to have the seed, and Xander will want to destroy it. Three possible outcomes that will totally put Buffy though a loop because truly and someone wil end up dead because of this. Who? Guess we'll see! Maybe all three will attempt something of their own..., thats a big betrayal isnt it?
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veiriti
Potential Slayer
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Post by veiriti on Nov 5, 2010 9:04:44 GMT -5
Peroxide Princess, you forgot about the episode “Destiny” on Angel season 5 where Spike has kicked Angel’s arse. It could be symbolical – the free will (Spike) is stronger than the destiny (Angel). I haven’t read the issue yet, but reading the summaries, I’m assuming Spike is not able to fight Angel right now – Spike is a regular vampire while Angel is duped with these super-twilight powers. But even that Spike still tried to defend Buffy facing Super-Twangel fearlessness. If Angel was a common vampire I’m sure Spike would kick his arse again. Just because Spike managed to barely beat Angel once doesn't mean he can beat him again. I don't even particularly like Angel, but you seem to have these unrealistic expectations of Spike because he's your favorite character. Barely managed to beat Angel? Oh, man, Spike has beaten him almost to death then! He was almost about to stake Angel in the episode Destiny! Btw – that was an epic fight! I’m enjoying these two gorgeous men fighting And I’m sure if they were equal – I mean both of them are vampire without any extra-superpowers Spike will beat Angel(us) again without a problem. As I’ve pointed above Spike throws himself to Twangelus with intrepidity to defend Buffy. He did the same and with The Master, because his love to Buffy is the more important thing for Spike, more important even than his un(life). And it gives him strength. But now I’m putting all my hopes to Buffy to defeat Twangel. Richie, why you are so sure that everything is for Angel?! Maybe Joss will surprise us in the end as he already did - he made Angel the villain who almost destroyed the world and Spike the hero who saved the day. And that one made me to laugh: Oh, why not Spike to go to Africa again and to pass thru the demon trial and to get a brand new soul for Angel?! Because the current Angel’s soul is a curse and corrupted and it makes him a less hero?! Spike is fighting for his grandsire’s soul and then is helping Angel to being Shanshuned and turned into a real boy. Very good plot for a Spangel fan fic! And here is an interesting post of TimeTravellingBunny in BuffyForums. That was an AWESOME response of some B/A fans that still having illusions (delusions) what a great romance is the B/A relationship on Season 8 . buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16131In the end – a brilliant review of issue 38 written by Moscow Watcher. moscow-watcher.livejournal.com/88976.htmlAnd Maggie's reactions of Issue 38: 2maggie2.livejournal.com/31883.html
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Post by lucyflawless on Nov 5, 2010 9:39:40 GMT -5
I think Spike/Angel/Buffy are meant to be pretty evenly matched. Who wins when they fight depends on where the story needs to go. In Destiny the story was that Angel was doubting himself and his purpose, so having Spike win the fight for the shanshu cup threw him for a loop. Buffy herself is sometimes almost killed by random vampires (eg Fool For Love) for the same reason. Also explains why Angel wasn't much of a fighter on btvs (nobody should outshine Buffy) as opposed to when he got his own show. Spike's role has mostly been to be an equal match to the main character, no matter if it's Buffy or Angel.
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Post by loveisabird on Nov 5, 2010 10:53:43 GMT -5
when Willow is saying all that chanting stuff in front of the seed, I WISH she had said something like " I... your new protector will keep you from harm," or something along those lines. With the Master being there in shackles and his eyes -not- red and Willows eyes -all- red ... I think it might be her way of almost exchanging the Master's role as protector and taking it into her own hands (because she wants the seed safe just that bad). OMG, this so could happen. And then Willow would be trapped down with the seed
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Post by Without Passion on Nov 5, 2010 14:41:52 GMT -5
I think Willow's wording is pretty significant - "Let your sworn protector stand against your enemies keeping evil from those who are faithful to you!" It hasn't been spelled out who this "sworn protector" is, yet (although it's been implied that it's The Master). It's interesting that "evil" is what the seed needs to be protected from considering how much the lines between "good" and "evil" have been blurred this entire season (alliances with Dracula and The Master who are pretty much as evil as they come). So..."evil"? Um, wouldn't that encompass pretty much everyone in this season in one way or another? The seed will probably choose the one person who has been the most loyal, the most "good", to protect it. I think this protector will be Spike and Buffy will be forced to fight him. He DOES seem to be the only one making sense lately (although he's been the voice of reason for a long time). This is just my theory; the story can go pretty much anywhere at this point!
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stakey
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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"Don't be a hero Scherbatsky." [Mo0:31]
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Post by stakey on Nov 6, 2010 15:54:12 GMT -5
Absolutely LOVED this issue.
I haven't been feeling the final so far, enjoying it but not fully. After this issue however I'm totally on board.
So many plot lines to pick up and string together, and I know Joss will do us proud.
Loved it!
However, I must say some of the art here and there was a tad hit and miss, but there was so much happening my eyes were just darting across each page. I'm hating the appearance of some of the demons though, metallic-y scifi demon creatures...not liking that.
But that's just a mild quibble. December is too far off!
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richie
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Post by richie on Nov 6, 2010 22:48:53 GMT -5
veiriti: i think thats because when joss did the shanshu was for angel... spike's souls came way later.... i love spike dont get me wrong.... but in my disturbed head, i think that in the end.... but in the end.... buffy and angel will be together.... and in this same head... spike will be the hero.... he will continue to protect the world to protect buffy... even though shes with another man....
and as long as the plots go im kinda lost....
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Post by Peroxide Princess on Nov 7, 2010 1:31:09 GMT -5
veiriti: i think thats because when joss did the shanshu was for angel... spike's souls came way later.... i love spike dont get me wrong.... but in my disturbed head, i think that in the end.... but in the end.... buffy and angel will be together.... and in this same head... spike will be the hero.... he will continue to protect the world to protect buffy... even though shes with another man.... and as long as the plots go im kinda lost.... Yeah, i kind of feel the same way. He'll be the Sydney Carton of the Buffyverse. (Tale of two Cities, anyone?) But, if it does turn out that way, I'll be disappointed if only for the fact that it's been done so many times. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I hope she ends up with neither. The point of Buffy is more than who she ends up with.
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beeemkcl
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Post by beeemkcl on Nov 7, 2010 3:59:56 GMT -5
My review for Buffy #38:
Lion-Twilight to Angel: “Mother rejected me for lack of conflict. Look at this place though! It is so clearing waning. I will be more monstrous, more beautiful, than anything she has ever feared or fantasized.” What does that first part mean? Maybe that Buffy left Twilight because she wouldn’t choose Angel and Twilight over her friends and family? That second part? Maybe Twilight did all the bad stuff to make Buffy want to live in a better place. It happened before for her. In “The Gift” (5.22), she decides to die partly because at that point, emotionally, she couldn’t take losing Dawn as well. But, if this was part of Twilight’s plan, why didn’t Twilight kill the Scoobies, Dawn, the Slayers, Giles, everyone that Buffy could have possibly cared about? It seems Buffy would have preferred to be with Angel in a happy place than be in a world where she has no one. That last part: Probably talking about Angel, Dracula, and Spike.
Lion-Twilight then tells Angel that he thinks Angel would have quit fighting him were not for Buffy. So, he seems to be confirming that the only reason Angel left Twilight is because Buffy left. That Angel did want to stay in Twilight with Buffy.
Back to Dawn, Xander, and Giles being in the Hellmouth with Buffy and Spike: They seem to be there to simply be in the scene. There’s no reason otherwise for them to be there. Dawn giving status reports? Earpieces would do fine.
The whole Master being enslaved by the Seed 800 years ago doesn’t make full sense. Were there protectors in the past? Who was protecting the Seed after the Master dusted? The Seed apparently just resurrected the Master after Twilight chose Angelus.
It seems that Buffy’s fighting like the normal Buffy not the superpowerd Buffy. She’s fighting no better than Spike. And this is throughout the Issue. It’s odd. The only sign of her strength is lifting demons with one hand.
A truly WTF thing in this comic: “Buffy, can you carry your sister? She’s really heavy.” Wrong in so many ways. First off, Buffy’s the superpowered one that can take the seemingly superpowered Master. Giles is the next weakest one besides Dawn and Xander and should be the one to take Dawn if Xander can’t. And, Xander can’t? Dawn probably weighs less than 120lbs and in earlier Issues we see that Xander is buff now and could most likely easily carry Giles around. And then Xander actually puts Dawn down and walks her out. Dawn with the possible brain trauma and bleeding side. And yet somehow this weakling Xander with a Dawn that maybe has head trauma and can barely walk is able to get out of the Hellmouth and get to the military medical field tent.
Willow: Seriously. She’s easily able to risk the entire world to keep her superpowers. And she’s desperate to side with the Master and even Seed-Master if it means keeping her powers.
Why isn’t Spike a member of or joining the discussion about whether to side with the Master to protect the Seed?
Spike’s ability to take blows: The Master smacks Buffy down and blood flies out of her mouth. He smacks Spike into a wall, no blood. Spike seems somehow to be able to in this Issue takes the blows of the Master and Angel-Twilight better than Buffy can. Or, simply for some reason the Master (or Seed-Master) and Angel-Twilight don’t hit Spike as hard as they do Buffy.
A second truly WTF thing in this comic: Giles casually reveals to Buffy that he was looking for this Seed in order to kill Buffy. Or at least to have the power to kill Buffy. Instead of say talking to Buffy and telling her to not join forces with this superpowered guy that calls himself Twilight. This is the Buffy that in “The Gift” (5.22) pretty much threatened everyone not to dare try to kill Dawn, that in Season 7 had Spike around for months knowing that he was super-dangerous, triggered, and connected to the Big Evil. And then threatened Wood not to even think of trying anything against Spike and then partly disowned Giles for a long time for his part in trying to put Spike down. And then in Season 8 is further fuming that Giles kept a secret mission involving Faith from her. And yet, now she’s perfectly understanding and agreeable that instead of talking to her he went and looked for something to kill her with?
I don’t get “We changed the world. Bound to be some casualties. Wouldn’t be the first time for me.” What is Buffy talking about? Her dying again? The only time those under her command died is in Season 7.
Interesting that one of the bugs no longer respects Spike because he’s following someone else.
Is the General actually working for the United States Military against Twilight? Or is he just trying to confused and manipulate Xander? Yet the General seems to know about the Seed or at least that something’s in the Hellmouth.
Did Willow chain the Master or did Buffy do so before leaving to help out?
And is Willow trying to make the Seed give the Master more power? Is she trying to get it to give her more power? Both? Her eyes don’t go red-flamy so she’s not possessed or given more power by the Seed. At least yet.
And like the Master Angel-Twilight hits Buffy a lot harder than it does Spike. He does knock Spike in the sunlight. But Spike can survive in sunlight as long as he’s at least minimally covered. And given “Chosen” (7.22), unless the amulet was keeping him non-dusty he not only had sunshine on him for a time but he survived when very concentrated sunlight was shooting out of the amulet. And Spikes’ not knocked out. So, it’s unlikely that he’s going to die from being knocked in the sunlight. He doesn’t seem to be considered much of a concern or threat to the Master or Angel-Twilight. So, he can just rush back in or whatever.
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veiriti
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Post by veiriti on Nov 7, 2010 11:52:20 GMT -5
richie, our opinions are totally different! I've used to love and I think I still love Angel in his own show and in his own comics away of Buffy. Angel fits perfect with his team - Cordy, Wesley, Gunn, I love Angel's relationship with Cordy and even with Darla, I love his relationship with his son Connor, especially in Angel IDW comics series... But I can't stand him in Buffy's story and I deeply dislike his relationship with Buffy, so I DO NOT want Buffy and Angel to end up together - please don't make me to tell my whole opinion about their relationship, because I don't want to disturb anyone here. If you want to see the other people's opinions about it, please check out the links I've posted above. About the Shanshu - watch the episode Destiny again and Angel season 5 - the name of the vampire with a soul is not mentioned anywhere. So you can't be sure for whom the prophesy is. And if you remember - in the end of Season 5 Angel signed the Shanshu prophesy away with his own blood. And as I've said so many times is not important what you want, or what I want, or someone else wants. This is a Joss Whedon's story and he writes it as he wants! That's it!
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Post by wenxina on Nov 7, 2010 12:03:07 GMT -5
The signing away of the Shanshu was never filed away, as revealed in "AtF". Meaning that Angel's still very much in play.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Nov 7, 2010 15:00:30 GMT -5
I think it would be a bit silly for the current season 8 Apocalypse not to be the Shanshu.
I think this is it, and next season we will see an Angel who has a hell of a lot of guilt to deal with, but is finally destiny-free. Hopefully he'll put aside his hopeless quest for "redemption" and just live by Xena's motto: Do good, and you are good.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Nov 7, 2010 19:03:36 GMT -5
I think it would be a bit silly for the current season 8 Apocalypse not to be the Shanshu. I've not watched Angel in a while so I'm rusty on the specifics, but isn't the Shanshu apocalypse the one that W&H scheduled? I thought the reason they didn't just kill Angel is because they needed him to play his role (his evil role, as revealed in AtF) in their future plans. So far W&H seem entirely absent from S8 and appear to have nothing to do with the Twilight apocalypse, so I don't think this is the Shanshu we're witnessing.
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