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Post by faithnspike on Nov 24, 2008 19:50:05 GMT -5
What is everyone’s take on shadow puppets and asylum canon not canon? (for that matter is spike after the fall canon?). do you think they are good reads or forgettable? I personally love both and see them as cannon. Brian Lynch created the most memorable characters not created by joss and co. (Beck and Betta) thanks Brian for making both characters cannon in after the fall!
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Nov 25, 2008 4:17:32 GMT -5
well, at first it bothered me, not knowing how canon it was. (Specially since i didn't like Spike-beheading that guy for no other reason than to get into the Asylum. What if the guy was innocent?).
Now i figure, it's up for the reader to decide. And i've decided that it's just as canon as any other comic written by a Angel author. After all, several scriptwriters have written comics, and they're just alternative canon according to me. Good to read, but doesn't necassarilly for into the timeline. Although, since Betta and Beck can be seen in After the fall, I have to confess that I consider shadow puppets and asylum almost as canon as the "tales of the vampires/slayers" stories, which I normally don't do with the angel/buffy comics.
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Nov 25, 2008 9:20:30 GMT -5
They're both excellent stories, but there is no way they can be considered canon. They obviously don't take place before Not Fade Away, and After The Fall starts immediatly after that. So unless they take place after ATF (which seems unlikey) they ain't canon.
And don't give me that "they could take place during Angel Season 5". Bullshit, why is Lorne in Vegas, where is Angel & co, etc They exist in that same post NFA limbo land that the Angel comics The Curse, Old Friends & Auld Lang Syne exist in
Again, brilliant stories, I'm just saying.
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trunkstheslayer
Potential Slayer
Bad day. Started bad, stayed that way.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 188
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Post by trunkstheslayer on Dec 5, 2008 20:42:25 GMT -5
They're both excellent stories, but there is no way they can be considered canon. They obviously don't take place before Not Fade Away, and After The Fall starts immediatly after that. So unless they take place after ATF (which seems unlikey) they ain't canon. And don't give me that "they could take place during Angel Season 5". Bullshit, why is Lorne in Vegas, where is Angel & co, etc They exist in that same post NFA limbo land that the Angel comics The Curse, Old Friends & Auld Lang Syne exist in Again, brilliant stories, I'm just saying. Well I'm convinced...in a "no, not even remotely" sort of way. They can fit into season 5 just fine. There IS time in the Buffyverse that isn't on screen. Time passes. There were plenty of places for these stories to be stuffed in. So let's not go "not a chance in hell" when there's plenty of a chance. ESPECIALLY when they're referenced in After the Fall (unarguably canonical) and Asylum was the reason Lynch was chosen to pen ATF. Add in that Betta George was loved enough for Joss to want him in ATF and it leans heavily on the canon side rather than not.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Dec 8, 2008 17:33:07 GMT -5
*looking for a couple of posts*
Anyone re-calling a couple of more posts here?
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Post by Emmie on Dec 8, 2008 17:34:14 GMT -5
What are you looking for, Skytte?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Dec 8, 2008 17:39:27 GMT -5
I was making fun of Cowboy, ina friendly way, and now I can't find those posts in any thread, although I think it was in this one.
Sure, mine didn't really add to the discussion, so it's okay if it got deleted, I just wanted Phil's response.
*giggling*
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Dec 8, 2008 17:55:32 GMT -5
They're both excellent stories, but there is no way they can be considered canon. They obviously don't take place before Not Fade Away, and After The Fall starts immediatly after that. So unless they take place after ATF (which seems unlikey) they ain't canon. And don't give me that "they could take place during Angel Season 5". Bullshit, why is Lorne in Vegas, where is Angel & co, etc They exist in that same post NFA limbo land that the Angel comics The Curse, Old Friends & Auld Lang Syne exist in Again, brilliant stories, I'm just saying. Well I'm convinced...in a "no, not even remotely" sort of way. They can fit into season 5 just fine. There IS time in the Buffyverse that isn't on screen. Time passes. There were plenty of places for these stories to be stuffed in. So let's not go "not a chance in hell" when there's plenty of a chance. ESPECIALLY when they're referenced in After the Fall (unarguably canonical) and Asylum was the reason Lynch was chosen to pen ATF. Add in that Betta George was loved enough for Joss to want him in ATF and it leans heavily on the canon side rather than not. Well Asylum would be a big sretch to take place in Season 5 (ie why is Lorne in Vegas?) But Shadow Puppets? No way. Obviously it'd have to be after the 'Smile Time' episode, and after 'Shells' at least for the appearances of Illyria. Spike even says in his opening voiceover something like "Latley I've been working on my own" and he's loving it, not been on a team anymore. "The angels over my shoulder are gone"... erm I don't think this is meant to the same time he's still hanging out at W&H. After the Fred/Illyria incident he said he's definitely be sticking around, and even shows up for company meetings and such in 'Underneath' As I said before, the stories are brilliant, but I don't accept this "well I like it so therefore its canon" or just because it has Betta George in it it MUST be canon" Its no more canon than Old Friends or Auld Lang Syne etc. Spike in Auld Lang Syne even says how he just got out of the Asylum from the book of the same name. There may be oblique reference in After The Fall to Betta George hanging out with vampires before, but that hardly makes it canon; It's just an in-joke.
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Post by vampireinrug on Dec 9, 2008 14:58:47 GMT -5
Skytte, the guy Spike beheaded to get into the Asylum was a vampire. So no need to worry about him being an innocent.
Personally, I consider them to be canon. For one thing, Beta George exists in After the Fall and clearly has a friendship with Spike. Not only does he mention that he's hung out with vampires before, but he creates a hallucination of Spike beating up the Douche Lackey at a carnival, and I think he may have mentioned Spike a few more times.
Spike imagined himself with a plush George in a shopping trolley. It's been implied in ATF that Spike and Lorne are somewhat close friends, and thier friendship was really only explored in Asylum and Shadow Puppets.
Also Beck, Anna and other patients at the Mosaic clinic appeared. As did the Japanese Smile Time character D!cky Duck. In his notes in the second hardcover Brian was also considering including Ms. Koinkoff.
I consider both of them to be canon, but they certainly aren't "essential reading" to enjoy After the Fall.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Dec 10, 2008 10:27:55 GMT -5
Skytte, the guy Spike beheaded to get into the Asylum was a vampire. So no need to worry about him being an innocent. *looking at the comic again* Yeah.. maybe... he does have a bumpy forhead... Thanks, now I can love the comic instead of liking it Of course, I do feel sorry for all the demons they had to put on fire, but I guess they didn't want to risk it.
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
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Post by Malsad on Dec 10, 2008 10:55:54 GMT -5
im still trying to find any copies on these in any fourm
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Post by vampireinrug on Dec 10, 2008 12:54:22 GMT -5
Skytte, not only does the guy Spike decapitates have a bumpy forehead, but there's a big cloud of dust billowing behind Spike afterwards.
And as for the demons in the truck... well they are demons after all. It's a fair assumption that upwards of 90% of them were irredemably evil on that basis alone. And they were choosing to follow the bad guy to wreak havok. I'll admit, there's the ever so slight possibility that there was some good demon who was only following the bad guy because he was drugged or something, but how many humans would he have killed before the drugs wore off? And that's going off the assumption there was a good demon in amongst all the bad ones. There probably wasn't.
And even then, blowing up the truck wasn't something that Beck took pleasure in doing. Spike said to her "sometimes to win the day, we have to do things we don't want to." By blowing up that truck a lot of innocent lives were saved.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Dec 10, 2008 12:59:05 GMT -5
They fit into the timeline perfectly. They're referenced in "After the Fall." They're canon.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Dec 10, 2008 13:37:17 GMT -5
Skytte, not only does the guy Spike decapitates have a bumpy forehead, but there's a big cloud of dust billowing behind Spike afterwards. And as for the demons in the truck... well they are demons after all. It's a fair assumption that upwards of 90% of them were irredemably evil on that basis alone. And they were choosing to follow the bad guy to wreak havok. I'll admit, there's the ever so slight possibility that there was some good demon who was only following the bad guy because he was drugged or something, but how many humans would he have killed before the drugs wore off? And that's going off the assumption there was a good demon in amongst all the bad ones. There probably wasn't. And even then, blowing up the truck wasn't something that Beck took pleasure in doing. Spike said to her "sometimes to win the day, we have to do things we don't want to." By blowing up that truck a lot of innocent lives were saved. Thanks, I'm convinced that that guy was a vamp. I didn't even notice the bumps or the dust. That's great, no need to hate spike. And I get that they didn't have a choice, they didn't have time to check how many demons were drugged or how many that were good. They could have died trying to save both the innocent demons and the town-people, so I get it. But I don't like it.
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Dec 10, 2008 16:20:02 GMT -5
They fit into the timeline perfectly. They're referenced in "After the Fall." They're canon. Again, I keep asking this- how? Please explain to me, because how the frak does Shadow Puppets fit into the timeline?
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Dec 10, 2008 22:40:00 GMT -5
I haven't gotten around to reading "Shadow Puppets" yet, so I can't comment on that, but I'm with Ethros in that I can't see how "Asylum" fits into the S5 timeline, simply due to the Lorne-in-Vegas element. Did he take a few days off between "Smile Time" and "A Hole in the World", go to Vegas, get a ( very) short-term gig performing in a casino, and then head back to LA and his day job in time for the next ep? :unsure: I treat "Asylum" more as a non-canon story featuring 3 canon characters (Spike, Lorne, Betta George), and just assume that Spike and George met at some point in the past, and that we haven't seen the true canonical version of that meeting yet. Maybe it even happened very much like it did in "Asylum"... just without the Lorne/Vegas bits. And the OP asked about opinions on both stories. No comment on "Shadow Puppets", because I still haven't gotten around to it yet, but I wasn't real blown away by "Asylum". It reminded me a lot of the S1 ep "The Ring", which aside from some very funny lines ("Something's going down tonight--something with The Man!" ;D ), was a pretty average/borderline-forgettable episode...
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Dec 11, 2008 10:24:01 GMT -5
They fit into the timeline perfectly. They're referenced in "After the Fall." They're canon. Again, I keep asking this- how? Please explain to me, because how the frak does Shadow Puppets fit into the timeline? First, calm down. No need to curse like a nerd. And second, it fits into the timeline directly after "Smile Time." Give me one example of how it CANNOT fit into the timeline, and I promise you I'll refute it.
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Post by dragonweaver on Dec 11, 2008 14:53:09 GMT -5
Again, I keep asking this- how? Please explain to me, because how the frak does Shadow Puppets fit into the timeline? I've read both and I actually think Shadow Puppets fits better in the s5 timeline then Asylum. What I think some people forget is that there was a huge break (over a month) between Shells and Underneath. So it's very possible that Spike could of gone off and spent some alone time dealing with Fred's death and in the course of that had a little adventure or two. Same with Lorne although technically he should have been showing more signs of grief since he still looked pretty wrecked in Underneath. Anyway, my point is that if you want to believe a comic is canon then you can find a way to make it so. I really liked both Asylum & Shadow Puppets and them being canon or not doesn't make me enjoy them any less or think of them as part of Spike's on going story.
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Dec 12, 2008 14:09:18 GMT -5
it fits into the timeline directly after "Smile Time." Give me one example of how it CANNOT fit into the timeline, and I promise you I'll refute it. Give me one example of how it CANNOT fit into the timeline, and I promise you I'll refute it. Directly after 'Smile Time' you say? Well it has Illyria in it for one. And in 'A Hole in the World' Spike says he's never flown before. Points to Ethros- 2 Points to Patxshand- 0
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Post by Brian Lynch on Dec 12, 2008 14:13:43 GMT -5
People should relax. "Is it Canon" isn't important. "Is it good", that's important.
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