Two unusual questions I have (re: Joss and ANGEL)

[nl197]

This is my first regular post here.

I've been reading bits and pieces of Whedonesque articles for many years, but don't often get all the facts straight when it comes to Joss Whedon and his own personal opinions about his shows...except for "Buffy", "Dollhouse" and most especially "Firefly"

That is why I must ask these two questions, and I apologize if they are a little unusual:

Based on what the man has said over the years, including what his fellow producers / writers have also commented on, I've always had the impression that Joss Whedon simply never cared much for "ANGEL", as a series or as a character. Sure, fan response and franchise potential helped to give him his own series, but it's my understanding that Whedon's involvement with it was spotty at best. I've heard many times that Whedon was "talked into the Angel character" by David Greenwalt..Things like that don't exactly ring positive.

Look at his own episodes pre-season 5 that he contributed, and they seem like Joss is forcing his "Buffy" voice and tone into "Angel" characters and situations. They make for good comedy, but they stick out. Writers like David Fury have said he was never around much either. Then of course whenever I see ANGEL mentioned (IF it's mentioned at all, since most talk is about every other show he's done except this) it's often a throwaway comment or some cheap Spike/Angel comparison. To sum this up, my first question is basically:

What exactly does Joss Whedon think about "ANGEL"?

My second question is sort of a reaction to this impression I get:

It seems ANGEL is consistently ranked as lowest of all the Whedon shows by fans, and with the popularity of "Twilight", fans seem to consider Angel (the character, not the series) to be responsible (ie, to blame) for the Edward Cullen phenomenon - Angel is the template and is derided for it, though it seems that people who seem to make that kind of complaint have ignored his series and how much the character changed over time.

ANGEL, as a series was more a Tim Minear, David Greenwalt, Jeff Bell show than a definite Joss Whedon show in feel. Given (again, my perception) Whedon's lack of involvement it's no surprise that his overall personality and tone isn't as palpable as it is on Buffy, Firefly and I suppose Dollhouse. It makes me wonder if that's a part of why fans seem to dismiss or rank it so low so often. Whedon's own comparisons between Spike and Angel seem to help fuel that from what I've been reading over the years. Spike, despite being briefly an "ANGEL" series character was and always will be a "Buffy" series character.

Then of course is the (to me, pointlessly petty) idea that one is a spinoff of the other so it will never be considered equal to the original show. That one idea gave me a deep resentment for "Buffy" as a series for many years, because it wasn't even a comparison (I've always seen both shows as too different to compare, so I never do compare them) as it was a cop-out. For me the resentment came out of spite, nothing more. ANGEL is my favorite series, but I don't see either show as being better, or less than. As time has gone by, that resentment as completely faded and doesn't exist at all anymore. I've been marathon-watching Buffy for the second time, since I did so earlier this year and am in early season 4 again. When you're pretty much friendless, a show like this makes that isolation much more bearable, and that's what drew me to ANGEL in the first place - to say I relate to the title character is an understatement...though he is admittedly infinitely better looking than I could be even if I had the best surgeons. I've no problem admitting he's a beautiful man, because well, I'm not blind.


Anyway....To sum up my second question:

Are Whedon fans too loyal, in that if Joss doesn't appear to invest in something his more hardcore fans don't either? Sort of "In Joss We Trust", taken a bit too far? Or a spinoff question being because Joss' overall feel isn't as strong the fans sort of react to that?

I'm not saying/asking all of this to start arguments or anything of the sort, I just genuinely want to know.

Good night, all.

[whitecandy]

Interesting points NL197. I have never really given much thought to how involved or attached Joss was to Angel, and haven't really read much about this either. I always found Angel to be a bland and slightly irritating character in Buffy (although he did have his moments that I liked) and wasn't sure if the character could carry off a show on his own.

I was therefore very pleased to watch all five series of Angel and have it exceed all my expectations. Each character that was brought over from Buffy seemed to develop and grow in a much better way and into deeper and more likeable characters than they had been, and Angel became a true hero in the lead role. The new characters were all also awesome and altogether created a great show.

Sometimes I think that I actually prefer Angel the series to Buffy, and it is definitely my second favourite show of all time after Buffy.

[jellymoff]

I think you will find that there are some fans that actually prefer ATS to BTVS (you will meet some of them on these boards), but I agree that overall, fans see Buffy as Joss' Magnum Opus of sorts.

I never got the impression that Joss didn't really care about Angel as a show, although I have heard many different versions of the story about how Joss initially didn't like Angel, etc. I don't know what's true and what isn't.

I think what we know for sure is that Joss cares about the Angel character now, as he is still using him in an very important way and has plans for him for the next few years.

[nl197]

One more point I should mention, is that fans seem to love season 5 of the show compared to the earlier seasons, which was largely run by Whedon himself moreso than any other season. That adds to the perception I have about how the show didn't have much of his own feel / tone to it, but clearly that final season did and maybe that's why fans gravitate more toward it.

That final season threw me a bit because as I mentioned before, both series are very different in overall tone. That was a good thing because both shows had to have their own unique identity, and it seemed at first that with "Buffy" as a series over, "ANGEL" inherited the show's tone and again, that's maybe a reason fans prefer it....?


Think about it - suddenly the show had needle-drop moments of songs used in episodes, something the show avoided with the exception of "Lonely Heart" in season 1, and even then it tied more into the nightclub atmosphere of the episode. 'Buffy' made needle-drop usage into an art form and it always worked in the context of the show, but it stuck out terribly when Angel is sitting in a car looking out at Nina reuniting with her family.

"Buffy"-style humor, the quirkiness of the Whedon-speak, the unique theme-based episodes were kept to a minimum on "ANGEL", but Whedon's involvement in part of season 4 and most of season 5 brought a lot of that atmosphere to the show and it's a bit of a jarring change, but given the fans' overall preferences, it seems as though that's what fans wanted so that's why it's considered a favorite compared to the earlier seasons.

Anyway, little more food for thought I guess.

Again, thanks.

[Neil]

Well, I don´t know if Joss really doesn´t care that much about Angel (like the least loved child). Indeed, Buffy is his most important piece of work and he talks a lot about Firefly (probably because it didn´t really take off?)

I think, Joss likes Angel. It´s true in the beginning, he didn´t want to have a character being a "good" vampire. But he always said, that only the story matters and if he is proven wrong on a certain point, he likes to adapt the new idea. He wrote all the important flashbacks about Angel in Buffy season 2.

I don´t really feel that the tone of Angel (the series) has changed so much over the years. (well, season 5 okay, but TheWB wanted the show to be reinvented, so okay). But the funny moments and the singing have been present already in season 2, for example, whenever they were in the caritas.

To Joss´ involvement: I´ve heard and read that for the most time he spent time on Buffy, but appearing regularly on Angel. He was at least part in the writer´s room and embodying ideas, like Numfar.
I only know, that his influence dimished in season 3, when Joss was in Pilot development for Firefly. His influence on Buffy season six was less as well.

I don´t know if I get you wrong, but I don´t have the feeling, that Angel become "lighter" whenever Joss Whedon participated. In season one of Angel he was working on the episode, where Faith comes to Angel and Buffy follows and this episode isn´t really a happy episode.
I guess, that Joss always puts some humor every here and there, because that´s how he writes, but if you look at season 4, which had his involvement- it wasn´t a season with happy endings, lighter tones.

Correct me if I´m wrong.

P.S.: Don´t talk yourself down. You´re probably more handsome than you believe.

And why do you think you don´t have friends? You´ve got us!

[astranger]

In answer to your first question I don't know much about Joss's involvement in Angel. Truth is we probably never will. People will give impressions, and details about what they remember, but these are not always accurate. And as others have said, any supposed lack of interest might simply have meant that Joss was busy.

But in answer to your second question I don't know about calling Angel the least popular series. I actually think I like it better for a number of reasons. I will not get into them here, but I think in the end Angel managed some qualities that Buffy could not. Perhaps this could be answered in a Poll, though I suspect that most people will go with Buffy out of respect or tradition. That is something I'm curious about now that I come to think about it. Anyway, I don't think people rank Angel as low, they just side with Buffy out of the choice, and Angel comes of second best, making it look less popular than it really is.

[buffyfan21]

I don't know if I'd say that Joss cared less about the Angel series. I don't think that's true at all. Yes, Buffy was Joss' first baby, but I believe he puts his heart and soul into each of his creations. It's no secret that I love Buffy just a little bit more than Angel, it will always be my favorite, but that said, I do love Angel, too. And I can see that a lot of love, time, and effort went into this show. Not only by Joss, but by the rest of the cast and crew as well. Maybe the Angel series isn't "as popular" as Buffy, that is a matter of personal opinion, but I definitely think it is a fantastic show in its own right with an equally compelling cast of characters.

[Josh]

I can't really comment on the Joss/Angel relationship because I really haven't looked too much into it.

To me, while I would rank Angel below Buffy and Dollhouse (this may be an unpopular opinion, but I firmly feel that had Dollhouse been able to run it's 5 year span the way it was suppsoed to I would have liked it more than Buffy), I liked Angel better than Firefly. But honestly, I love all of Joss' shows that he's done and that's why it kills me that 3 of the 4 shows didn't get to finish their run as originally intended.

This isn't my reason for ranking it below Buffy, but a potential reason for some fans not being as fond of it is that there was a male lead as opposed to a female lead, showing the female empowerment Buffy did. Also, Angel is a darker, more mature show than Buffy overall and given that a lot of Buffy fans don't like Season 6 because of how dark it is, that could be another reason. IDK. Either way I don't consider Angel a lesser show. I love all of Joss' shows for completely different reasons.

[Secret Scoobie]

This is a very intriguing discussion I must say -

Although I don't have much to add, I just wanted to say I research and read very little into the amount Joss participates in each episode/season/series and so I'd like to think if I happened to like particular ones more than others it's not because I'm influenced by 'oooh this is a Joss-y-filled episode/series/season' and just experience it as a whole...

In saying that though, there probably are a few/alot of fans who DO only invest in the things Joss loves most (and thus gets most involved in) and maybe that's a problem and maybe it's not.. I mean if they are all sectors of his brainchildren aren't we just able to enjoy them based on their enjoyability and not who to give credit to?

Don't know whether that answers your question but yeah.