Question on grading

[Darth Rosie]

So here's a question for all of you who are students at the university. As some of you may know already, I am an associate professor of legal studies with a special focus on gender and queer legal studies.

So here's a problem I have encountered on which I would love to hear your opinion. I had a seminar last semester. People presented papers, people handed in their papers. I gave them loads of feedback. Now one student asked me whether I had just been "nice" with my feedback or whether it counted for the overall evaluation, especially concerning their passing the seminar.

My answer was as follows: I held that every academic paper needs to have an introduction where the main terms are defined and the method is presented. The intro is followed by the main part of the text and completed with a conclusion. Every paper needs to adhere to this standard and where I have detected mistakes, those need to be corrected. Since the paper in question did not contain an introduction and suffered from several mistakes (which I had pointed out in my commentary to the paper), I concluded that the student would have to write an introduction and correct the mistakes as indicated, then she would pass the seminar. The grade, I added, would depend on how good the paper was after revision.

Now the student wrote me a rather angry email blaming me of holding overly rigid standards and basically telling me that I was failing her emotionally, personally and professionally.

Do you think I was being too rigid asking her to revise her paper?
Thanks for any responses.

[Talkie Toaster]

I think that said Student should learn that the real world doesn't coddle you (Like how these days kids sports all the kids even the losers get medals or awards) I know when i work if i do a job wrong i am told to go back and do it properly so why should it be any different at Uni?

[Skytteflickan88]

Aren't you suppose to uphold those "overly rigid standards"? It's you job isn't it? If she wants the standards to change, wouldn't she has to talk to whoever set those standards? (I assume that it's not the individual teacher, but I have no idea) Does she think you should go easy on her, and only her? Or does she think you're misinterpreting the standards/goals of the course?

And what would have happened if you hadn't asked her to revise? Didn't you give her a better change at getting a better grade by being "rigid"? If she hadn't be told to improve, wouldn't she have gotten a low grade, and now she has the chance for a better one?

And how could she fail you emotionally and personally? Those have nothing to do with your job, or your relationship with your student. I saw my high school teachers bend over backwards, staying after school to test and help students who failed to show up at class, over and over again, when they clearly stated in the beginning of each preparation for tests and papers "These are the terms" yet, the students ignored those rules. That really pissed me off, because I bothered to do the work properly, and within deadlines, and I accepted the grades and consequences when I slacked. Okay, I did whine, but never to my teachers. They have a job to do, and that's it. I don't want anyone to act like a overprotective and too helpful babysitter. But I have to admit, those times the teachers did cut me some slack, I was grateful, but I never expected it.

I don't know exactly how to procede in your situation since I don't have all the facts, but just do you job and do it good. No more, no less. If you want to help a student who's asking for it, that's generally fine, but there's limits, and it seems like this student is asking too much of you. Maybe talk to someone you're working with, surely someone must have been pressured by students in the passed as well and know how to handle it?

[Astray]

No way. I had to write a history paper last semester and I went to my professor's office hours many times to receive feedback so I could make revisions. I loved it, it made writing the paper a lot easier when I knew what he wanted from me. If anything she should be happy that you outlined what needed to be changed, instead of just accepting it as is. I really don't understand why she would feel so agitated with you...maybe she was unclear with the assignment?

[sagewoman]

I agree with all above. I have been in the corporate world for more than 20 years now and have seen a real decline in th ethe ability of many younger people to communicate in writing. This puts them at a real disadvantage in the job market as many recruiters ask for online resumes and pre filter according to quality of the resume (tossing those with spelling and grammatical errors as it indicates to them a laziness on the part of the job seeker).

The standards are not onerous and are considered a "best practice". Being a good writer will not hold you back. You may not need to ever write this clearly again, but if you are not a good writer and do not know the basics, you cannot fudge it.

Keep to your standards - this student is lucky to have you and that you will allow revisions is such a bonus - many times the mark is the mark and now you know better for next time.

For those of you who do not live in North America - many of us think that people from the UK are extremley smart and it isn't just the accent - but the command of spoken and written English that seems to go hand-in-hand with those educated under the British educational system.

And, I did not know Darth Rosie that you are an associate professor - that is so great. Are you in North America or nearer the UK, Australia, Europe?

[Darth Rosie]

Thanks so much, all of you, for your thoughtful and helpful input - it makes it much easier for me to stay my course, so to speak. The problem with this particular student is that she cannot deal with criticism; instead of trying to hear what I have to say (or to read my comments) she gets aggressive and offensive and claims that I am authoritarian (she called my stance "didactic paternalism" - though this is something I can truly live with; it's my job as all of you have said).

I also thought of my feedback as a rather generous (extremely time-consuming) intervention in the process of writing the seminar paper(s) - as taking my students truly seriously, trying to bring out the best in their abilities. Most of the students took it that way; not this one.

Sage, I live on the continent, in a German speaking environment. And it usually is a great job being a professor

[wenxina]

When did writing a paper become so onerous anyway? I wish I had ever utilized the free time of a prof for paper feedback. But as with most people who procrastinate excessively, I'm the poster child of writing/finishing the paper the night/hour before it's due.
However, I will point out that writing has always been easy for me, so my grades have always been inversely proportional to the amount of effort put in. Yeah... your student would so hate me.
"Didactic paternalism"... big words for an idiot who can't grasp the simple concept of writing a paper. Tell her to stick her big words where they matter (i.e. in her paper).
Stupid children and their sense of entitlement.

[Grave]

Next time don't help her.
You asked her to change the structure of her essay, edit it and then you will re-grade it.

You are helping her out.
Ask her, would she prefer to get a D or F on the paper, for failure to read instructions and inability to follow the given structure?

[Skytteflickan88]

She sounds like a bitca. I'm sometimes very bad at being accepting critic as well, and can be a very sore loser, but I like to think that I'm at least able to keep that disapointment to myself and not let it out on others (God I hope so).

If she does get offensive, isn't there any way you not have to deal with her? Maybe "tell on" her? That e-mail sounds like it could be proof enough to give her a warning or something (did it have namecalling?), but I have no idea how universities in the US handle that. Sounds like a good time to call her mom or give her detention, but I guess that's the wrong kind of school, lol.

Maybe just avoid giving her feedback in the future? Give your students a option of getting feedback from you or not, and hope she says "no" in the future?

I guess the ultimate scenario would be if she followed your advice, revised, got a good grade and apologized, but I would be happy if she got a failing grade and then learned (or just continued being a bitca). I'm evil like that.

[Astray]

"Didactic paternalism" ?

Yes I can see this. When I think of Darth Rosie I always think of your didacity.

[Darth Rosie]

Didacity, that made may day

One thing is sure: I will reduce my contact with said student to a minimum, while remaining calm, as friendly as I can yet unrelenting when it comes to fulfulling my criteria.

You all have been a great help. Thank you!

[Billie Erin]

I'm only a Sixth Form student- not a uni one- but I think your grading sounds absolutely fair, if the student made major mistakes like that they should correct them before handing in their final papers. People who don't learn from criticism really annoy me- explain to her how you're trying to help her improve and if she won't listen just forget about her, seriously she sounds completely unreasonable.

[drusillacakes]

It seems to me that you were clear in your feedback, and I assume in your syllabus as well about your grading policies. If she can't follow instructions, then that's not your problem. There was room for her to improve, and she chose not to go that route. :shrugs: Tough cookies!

There's always a sour grape in bunch and I guess this time it's her, lol. I'm sure the other students in your class were very grateful for your feedback and took it to heart. Don't let this one get you down too much. Hopefully she will learn from this experience and follow instructions next time.

[Skytteflickan88]

She'll be working at Burger King in no time. Then you can give her feedback on her skills while she gets your fries.

[drusillacakes]

Oct 1, 2010 19:30:55 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

She'll be working at Burger King in no time. Then you can give her feedback on her skills while she gets your fries.

Would you like a side of "didactic paternalism" with those fries?

[TannerSaysStuff]

I don't think a student who doesn't understand how to write an intro should be passing classes anyway.

[Darth Rosie]

Oct 1, 2010 19:54:18 GMT -5 drusillacakes said:

Oct 1, 2010 19:30:55 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

She'll be working at Burger King in no time. Then you can give her feedback on her skills while she gets your fries.

Would you like a side of "didactic paternalism" with those fries?

SQUEAL!!
you just made my day.

[Shane]

OP - Wow! I think it's pretty cool that you're taking such an interest in your students' academic life. And it's even cooler that *you* are the one making a thread to discuss this.

That being said, she may be just missing the *purpose* of good presentation altogether and wants to be marked on content alone. How did she do there? Does it seem like she'd be *able* to conform to the format? How is she doing in her other courses? Law students are generally quite well-adjusted with such things but with such an increasing disconnect between high school and university systems there are bound to be a few exceptions.

You've definitely done more than your share but if she disagrees with the "system" on a fundamental level *now* then it'd probably be best to refer her to counselors. Maybe they can get her to be less rebellion (before she starts practising, of course!) or, alternatively, find her a more suitable program...

ETA: I'm willing to bribe you into coming to my university.

[Darth Rosie]

OK, so here I am again, and I will again rely on your patience and wisdom.

Said student has now that the deadline for handing in the final version of her paper has passed sent me the following message (which was in German, this is a translation):

Dear Rosie,
I totally forgot to tell you that I decided that I will not invest any more time to revise the seminar paper. Maybe the reason for this (my forgetting) is that I do not know how to tell you this without there being "bad blood" again. It is just that working on the paper does not further my PhD (your standards simply do not fit my research design) and I have so many other things to do that I am simply unable to make it this year. Should I want to publish this paper I am certainly going to consider your comments. Since I participate at more seminars than necessary I would simply ask you to ignore my participation at your seminar and accordingly not to grade me. Maybe you are happy to hear that I did learn something from you. For example, I produced an extensive definition of my central terms, I incorporated the concept of intersectionality in my research stategy and all in all I am striving to be very precise in my references!
Wishing you a nice holiday!
Most cordially,
Audrey

(this, of course, is not her real name, as Rosie isn't mine )

Those of you who have too much time on their hands: would you be so nice to comment on this letter and tell me if my furiosity (and I am furious, I feel sick to the stomach) is exaggerated? The point is: She does not want me to grade her in order to avoid not passing the seminar.

[elenasaur]

While the translation was a little less than clear, I think you're justified in having negative feelings.

She sounds dismissive and patronizing. Which really annoys me. If it doesn't further her phd, and she has enough seminars without yours, why bother signing up for it at all? Talking about how she actually learned from you makes it sound like she wasn't expecting to, so it's a bit of a backhanded complement.

I don't know though. She probably wrote it with genuinely good intentions, but it just gives me bad vibes.