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Post by abuffyfan on Oct 23, 2010 14:40:15 GMT -5
Having just watched Season 2 episodes 1-12, then Epitaph One, then Epitaph Two, I have a bunch of questions I'm hoping y'all can clear up...
After blowing up Rossum, wouldn't Echo and co. be majorly wanted by other Rossumers like Ambrose and Harding? Wouldn't it be very easy to find them seeing as they went back to the Dollhouse?
Did they return to the Dollhouse and stay "in business"? It appears in Epitaph One that they acquired new Dolls and things stayed business as usual.
When did the Victor/Ambrose kitchen scene occur?
If I can think of more, I'll ask. Thanks in advance!
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Post by VampSlayer on Oct 23, 2010 14:50:04 GMT -5
The kitchen scene appeared a few months before 'Getting Closer', I believe. Tim Minear said that he wanted to add that scene into 'Getting Closer', but couldn't for some reason. I think it was time issues. As for the gang post-Hollow Men... It's not very clear. I imagine they were on the run, up until the world went to hell and took refuge in the LA Dollhouse. EDIT - Tim Minear didn't use the scene as a flashback, because we already had Plot B Flashback. "Another for instance — I was going to include the Ambrose-as-Victor in the kitchen scene, but Adelle's hair was long. So I considered including it as a flashback when Adelle is telling Boyd that he has to go on the run, that Ambrose wouldn't confine his consciousness to a single body — she was going to tell Boyd she knows this because a few months back Ambrose came to her — in the form of Victor. And it was this incident which helped her make up her mind to take down Rossum. Here was the trouble with that — I already had a flashback structure and it would have been weird to suddenly have this one "flashback" that wasn't part of the Caroline/Bennett b-story. So instead I simply wrote a scene which could fit with that theory without explicitly stating it."io9.com/5444956/the-truth-about-dollhouses-evil-mastermind
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Post by abuffyfan on Oct 23, 2010 16:10:39 GMT -5
Hmmm...thanks. I was sort of thinking the same thing, that it had to take place prior to Hollow Men...perhaps during the three-month gap when Echo was MIA?
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-'Goldilocks
Potential Slayer
I could eat that word...or a crisp![Mo0:25]
Posts: 144
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Post by -'Goldilocks on Oct 23, 2010 16:48:17 GMT -5
What I dont understand is why Claire/Whiskey got her scars removed? I keep thinking about it over and over but it just dosnt seem to fit. I originally thought that it may be because they re-opened the Dollhouse but then decided this wouldnt happen.
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Post by VampSlayer on Oct 23, 2010 19:14:19 GMT -5
Well, Victor got his scars removed, and they were much deeper than Claire's, according to Alpha. There's no reason why she couldn't undergo the same procedure as well. The sad truth is this: It happened. Will we ever find out when or exactly how, or even why? No. All we can know is that there's a time period we've skimmed over, and Claire getting her scars removed was in that period.
My guess is that while writing Epitaph One, Jed and Mo decided to have her scar-less, because of smaller budget and the lack of crew, and it took some decent time for Amy Acker to get the makeup on. It was thought to be the series finale, so why not, right? But as we all know, it didn't turn out that way, thank God.
Claire's scar-less appearance will just be one of those things that is never fully explained, like why cutting Rossum off at the top caused the tech to go out of control.
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Post by abuffyfan on Oct 23, 2010 22:13:34 GMT -5
The thing is, Saunders' scars being removed aren't nearly as important as how the crew ended up back in the Dollhouse, seemingly with new Dolls, and how their enemies didn't know they were there.
The scars issue is something we can fill in ourselves while the other is more of a glaring plothole. Please comics, explore this stuff!
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Post by Eric on Oct 23, 2010 22:16:38 GMT -5
The kitchen scene appeared a few months before 'Getting Closer', I believe. Tim Minear said that he wanted to add that scene into 'Getting Closer', but couldn't for some reason. I think it was time issues. It's because of Adelle/Olivia's hair. It was long in the Epitaph One flashback, but short in season two.
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Post by VampSlayer on Oct 23, 2010 22:19:44 GMT -5
Well, I think it's safe to say the citizens hiding out in the LA Dollhouse were just normal people, not Dolls/Actives. Jed and Mo stated on the commentary of Epitaph One that they thought of those people as former Dolls/Actives, but that idea was kinda tossed aside during Getting Closer, when Topher released all of their Actives back into the world. It's fine by me, as that idea was never stated as fact, only an interpretation from Jed and Mo. I would imagine that, like I said above, Echo and Co. were on the run until the world fell apart. Once that went down, they headed back to the LA Dollhouse for safety, and took in others that managed to avoid the first wave of mind-wipes. The kitchen scene appeared a few months before 'Getting Closer', I believe. Tim Minear said that he wanted to add that scene into 'Getting Closer', but couldn't for some reason. I think it was time issues. It's because of Adelle/Olivia's hair. It was long in the Epitaph One flashback, but short in season two. Yeah, I quoted that same thing from Tim Minear in my Edit.
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Josh
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 265
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Post by Josh on Oct 24, 2010 3:48:39 GMT -5
Well, Victor got his scars removed, and they were much deeper than Claire's, according to Alpha. There's no reason why she couldn't undergo the same procedure as well. The sad truth is this: It happened. Will we ever find out when or exactly how, or even why? No. All we can know is that there's a time period we've skimmed over, and Claire getting her scars removed was in that period. My guess is that while writing Epitaph One, Jed and Mo decided to have her scar-less, because of smaller budget and the lack of crew, and it took some decent time for Amy Acker to get the makeup on. It was thought to be the series finale, so why not, right? But as we all know, it didn't turn out that way, thank God. Claire's scar-less appearance will just be one of those things that is never fully explained, like why cutting Rossum off at the top caused the tech to go out of control. I personally want to believe that they gave Whiskey back her original persona and that's why they finally did the thing to remove her scars. Then, seeing what world she had been brought back to, whoever Whiskey originally was didn't want to be in it and chose to be wiped again. There's nothing that's ever been said to imply this as fas as I know, but it's my own way of justifying things (and filling in logic gaps since everyone else was pretty much imprinted with their original personas again).
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Post by henzINNIT on Oct 24, 2010 10:00:11 GMT -5
The series' continuity kind of got away from the writers toward the end. I know I may be in the minority, but I kind of wish they didn't stretch so hard to wrap the present timeline up. Things were great up to the end of the Attic, but the pace changes considerably after. Epitaph 2 could have remained the same regardless of how much we saw before.
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Post by abuffyfan on Oct 24, 2010 13:45:08 GMT -5
The kitchen scene appeared a few months before 'Getting Closer', I believe. Tim Minear said that he wanted to add that scene into 'Getting Closer', but couldn't for some reason. I think it was time issues. It's because of Adelle/Olivia's hair. It was long in the Epitaph One flashback, but short in season two. But her hair's up in the kitchen scene and looks short, at least to me (not a hair expert). But I guess if they used it, people would complain. But then they didn't use it and now people are confused! Damn Olivia's hair...it's the reason Dollhouse got cancelled...Keri Russell/Felicity all over again....
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Post by abuffyfan on Oct 24, 2010 13:47:00 GMT -5
The series' continuity kind of got away from the writers toward the end. I know I may be in the minority, but I kind of wish they didn't stretch so hard to wrap the present timeline up. Things were great up to the end of the Attic, but the pace changes considerably after. Epitaph 2 could have remained the same regardless of how much we saw before. I am glad I'm not the only one who found things got a little out of hand after The Attic (although I'd go back to Stop-Loss first).
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Post by VampSlayer on Oct 24, 2010 15:41:52 GMT -5
Hmm, IMO, I think the strongest episodes of Dollhouse were the final ones: The Attic, Getting Closer, and Epitaph Two: Return. (With the exception of The Hollow Men. <.<) The second season overall was fantastic, and strongly built up. It only had a few 'okay' episodes, such as Instincts, Stop-Loss, and The Hollow Men.
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Post by henzINNIT on Oct 25, 2010 13:37:19 GMT -5
The series' continuity kind of got away from the writers toward the end. I know I may be in the minority, but I kind of wish they didn't stretch so hard to wrap the present timeline up. Things were great up to the end of the Attic, but the pace changes considerably after. Epitaph 2 could have remained the same regardless of how much we saw before. I am glad I'm not the only one who found things got a little out of hand after The Attic (although I'd go back to Stop-Loss first). You're not alone. I very much like the ideas thrown out in Getting Closer & Hollow Men, but it felt a lot like an entire 3rd season was stuffed into a couple of hours. Boyd the villain, Novemeber/Mellie's suicide, Bennet's backstory, Saunders' return, Caroline & Echo meeting, Victor's tech-fetish... great but all needed more time. As for Stop-Loss, it was just a bit half-baked I thought but not bad.
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Post by Eric on Oct 25, 2010 15:27:37 GMT -5
It's because of Adelle/Olivia's hair. It was long in the Epitaph One flashback, but short in season two. Yeah, I quoted that same thing from Tim Minear in my Edit. Oops. TL;DR, lol. It's because of Adelle/Olivia's hair. It was long in the Epitaph One flashback, but short in season two. But her hair's up in the kitchen scene and looks short, at least to me (not a hair expert). But I guess if they used it, people would complain. But then they didn't use it and now people are confused! Damn Olivia's hair...it's the reason Dollhouse got cancelled...Keri Russell/Felicity all over again.... The scene could still take place in season two. The flashbacks shown in Epitaph One were memories being "played" through Whiskey. It possible someone just remember Adelle's hair wrong.
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Josh
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 265
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Post by Josh on Oct 26, 2010 12:37:41 GMT -5
I am glad I'm not the only one who found things got a little out of hand after The Attic (although I'd go back to Stop-Loss first). You're not alone. I very much like the ideas thrown out in Getting Closer & Hollow Men, but it felt a lot like an entire 3rd season was stuffed into a couple of hours. Boyd the villain, Novemeber/Mellie's suicide, Bennet's backstory, Saunders' return, Caroline & Echo meeting, Victor's tech-fetish... great but all needed more time. As for Stop-Loss, it was just a bit half-baked I thought but not bad. I feel like a lot of concepts from Season 2 weren't actually meant for Season 2. Like with Echo leaving the dollhouse. I felt like that should have happened at the end of a season and then next season we come back to her having grown a bit in the outside world. Which is why I've said so much that I really wish we had gotten Joss' full vision because I'm sure there were awesome stories we missed out on.
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Post by VampSlayer on Oct 26, 2010 16:03:36 GMT -5
You're not alone. I very much like the ideas thrown out in Getting Closer & Hollow Men, but it felt a lot like an entire 3rd season was stuffed into a couple of hours. Boyd the villain, Novemeber/Mellie's suicide, Bennet's backstory, Saunders' return, Caroline & Echo meeting, Victor's tech-fetish... great but all needed more time. As for Stop-Loss, it was just a bit half-baked I thought but not bad. I feel like a lot of concepts from Season 2 weren't actually meant for Season 2. Like with Echo leaving the dollhouse. I felt like that should have happened at the end of a season and then next season we come back to her having grown a bit in the outside world. Which is why I've said so much that I really wish we had gotten Joss' full vision because I'm sure there were awesome stories we missed out on. Well, if I'm remembering correctly, Eliza has said that she and Joss had up to five seasons worth of plot. They had to cram the main, overall plot of four/five seasons into a few episodes. I agree that Echo leaving the Dollhouse would have been a great way to end season two... If we had had a normal broadcast history. That said, I think Joss and Co. did a great job at cramming the story, even though it's a pity it had to be done in the first place.
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Post by abuffyfan on Oct 26, 2010 16:43:37 GMT -5
They did a good job with compressing the story up until the second-last episode. There was something so "off" about that one. Oh well, what's done is done! I still like Dollhouse better than Firefly.
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Josh
Novice Witch
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Posts: 265
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Post by Josh on Oct 26, 2010 16:59:46 GMT -5
I feel like a lot of concepts from Season 2 weren't actually meant for Season 2. Like with Echo leaving the dollhouse. I felt like that should have happened at the end of a season and then next season we come back to her having grown a bit in the outside world. Which is why I've said so much that I really wish we had gotten Joss' full vision because I'm sure there were awesome stories we missed out on. Well, if I'm remembering correctly, Eliza has said that she and Joss had up to five seasons worth of plot. They had to cram the main, overall plot of four/five seasons into a few episodes. I agree that Echo leaving the Dollhouse would have been a great way to end season two... If we had had a normal broadcast history. That said, I think Joss and Co. did a great job at cramming the story, even though it's a pity it had to be done in the first place. Oh yeah, I definitely love Season 2 even if it is a season that had a lot of concepts crammed into it to wrap things up.
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Post by abuffyfan on Oct 26, 2010 21:34:23 GMT -5
For some reason I liked the first season a bit better...in the second season I really missed Mellie (didn't care for the Madeline persona even though it was "real") and Paul's apartment.
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