|
Post by wenxina on May 8, 2008 18:34:56 GMT -5
Well, if Renee dies, it's a different matter altogether. Patching up tissue, organs, flesh, etc may be possible for Willow, but can she resurrect the dead from a natural death? IF Renee dies, her death would be of natural cause. Slightly unusual circumstances maybe, but still natural, i.e. internal damage and quite possibly bleeding out. It's been pointed out at Whedonesque that Willow did restore Buffy, even after she coded on the table in S6... and bullet to the chest would be a natural way to die. Does the level of damage done matter? Is that why Buffy could be brought back? Is natural death reversible? I'm going with continuity glitch in favor of dramatic urgency. But I'd love to hear some of your thoughts...
|
|
El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
|
Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 8, 2008 18:46:30 GMT -5
How long does it take a person to die after being stabbed throught the heart? If Renee died almost instantly, maybe Willow couldn't heal her in time. If she got her mojo going fast enough, maybe she could bring her back, even if she'd been dead for a few seconds. A la Buffy at the end of S1, or Warren in S6 (to explain away Joss's mistake re: Warren-as-the-First, all I can come up with is that he must've been dead very briefly before Amy saved him )....
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on May 8, 2008 18:48:59 GMT -5
I think Willow has the ability to heal Renee, even if she just died. But circumstances like Kumiko and the deslayerizing spell are gonna interfere.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on May 8, 2008 18:50:31 GMT -5
How long does it take a person to die after being stabbed throught the heart? If Renee died almost instantly, maybe Willow couldn't heal her in time. If she got her mojo going fast enough, maybe she could bring her back, even if she'd been dead for a few seconds. A la Buffy at the end of S1, or Warren in S6 (to explain away Joss's mistake re: Warren-as-the-First, all I can come up with is that he must've been dead very briefly before Amy saved him ).... Buffy at the end of S1 was brought back by CPR, not magic. And Warren's death... would that count as an unnatural death? I mean, he was mystically flayed, but I guess it could have been the loss of blood, leading to shock that killed him, like burn victims. Gray area much? But, for the sake of argument, assuming that it was an unnatural death, then Warren's being brought back would be possible, provided that Amy had the same amount of skill of early S6 Willow. However, it probably had to be a different spell performed... wasn't the last Urn of Osiris destroyed after the spell was completed?
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on May 8, 2008 18:54:37 GMT -5
I think there's a certain amount of timelag between when the body is technically dead and when the spirit moves on. So saving Buffy was a matter of healing her body. And Warren is a weird case because if Amy could heal him, why couldn't she just have his skin healed instead of providing him with a mystical skin?
|
|
El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
|
Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 8, 2008 18:57:41 GMT -5
Buffy at the end of S1 was brought back by CPR, not magic. Details, dude, details. She was dead, and was brought back. If Xander could bring Buffy back by breathing air into her lungs, then isn't a reasonable to assume Willow could bring someone back by breathing magic into her body? Just repair the heart, and attempt to get all the functions going again. I think, just like with CPR or the thing with the paddles where they go "Clear!" (I'm spacing on the name right now ), the big factor would doing it as soon after the 'flatline' moment as possible...
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on May 8, 2008 19:00:58 GMT -5
Buffy at the end of S1 was brought back by CPR, not magic. Details, dude, details. She was dead, and was brought back. If Xander could bring Buffy back by breathing air into her lungs, then isn't a reasonable to assume Willow could bring someone back by breathing magic into her body? Just repair the heart, and attempt to get all the functions going again. I think, just like with CPR or the thing with the paddles where they go "Clear!" (I'm spacing on the name right now ), the big factor would doing it as soon after the 'flatline' moment as possible... Yep thats what I think too. The question is will the writers allow Willow to have the time to heal Renee or will she be too caught up in the fight? As the big gun, you know the vamps are gonna want to neutralize her right away. Her mystical abilities are the only power the slayers can exploit to kill the mistyvamps. Get Willow out of the way and the vamps are unstoppable. Except for my blowtorch theory.
|
|
Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
|
Post by Smashed on May 8, 2008 19:09:22 GMT -5
It's all so complicated. Can Willow bring Renee back from the dead: She probably can and would.
Man, I hope we get previes sooner than last time.!
|
|
|
Post by Rebecca on May 8, 2008 19:17:30 GMT -5
Count me in the "Renee's not gonna die" club, too. CowboyGuy actually made the point I was gonna make (dammit! ): if Willow could heal herself after everything Warren did to her, not to mention healing all the soldiers Buffy and Satsu had to wound as they were going thru the base to get to her, then she can heal a little stake thru Renee's chest. No problem... ...which I don't really like. I didn't like it that she was able to heal all that damage back in issue #4, and I won't like it if it happens next issue, either. It takes all the drama and weight out of it when these sorts of things happen now... Also, with the non-healing of Xander's eye. Sure it might make him look cool, or whatever bullshit they might come up with. But in reality...I would want my eye back!!!! However Xander got his eye taken out 1) while he was at the vinyard and Willow was at the Summer's house and 2) before she worked the scythe spell and got all that extra magic power goodness.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on May 8, 2008 19:20:59 GMT -5
Buffy at the end of S1 was brought back by CPR, not magic. Details, dude, details. She was dead, and was brought back. If Xander could bring Buffy back by breathing air into her lungs, then isn't a reasonable to assume Willow could bring someone back by breathing magic into her body? Just repair the heart, and attempt to get all the functions going again. I think, just like with CPR or the thing with the paddles where they go "Clear!" (I'm spacing on the name right now ), the big factor would doing it as soon after the 'flatline' moment as possible... Agreed that those are details, but I'm not arguing the technicalities of how long before a body is really dead. I know that you have about a 4-minute window after the heart stops to resuscitate it without risking severe brain damage. That gives you time for CPR or to use defibrillators (the paddle things) to resuscitate the heart. However, what I am arguing is that the rules are that a natural death cannot be reversible. So maybe Buffy wasn't dead dead when she flatlined (that's the heart stopping), and so insta-repair of tissue and a little jolt of electricity (all the electrical equipment was going wonky anyway) to start up the heart, fine. Accepted. But is there a point when it can't be done? Willow was right next to Tara when she was shot. She tried to revive her. Didn't work. So, possibly a Dark Willow thing? If so, is Willow willing to go there again? And I acknowledge Emmie's point that there probably will be no time. But I guess I'm interested in the technicalities, so I'm saying, assuming that time was at a standstill (and Willow has done that before), would/should/could she resurrect a dead girl? But moving on... what's up with Kumiko and the hanging upside down and seemingly rooted to the ceiling by dark magic or something? Also, since El Diablo Robotico brought it up, regarding the de-slayerizing spell and how getting rid of Willow will probably be the top priority, shouldn't getting rid of Kumiko be the Slayers' first mode of action? No witch, no incantation, big bloody orb can glow all it wants. I'm hoping for a more evenly matched lightshow this time... Amy was weak sauce.
|
|
|
Post by Rebecca on May 8, 2008 19:27:38 GMT -5
Count me in the "Renee's not gonna die" club, too. CowboyGuy actually made the point I was gonna make (dammit! ): if Willow could heal herself after everything Warren did to her, not to mention healing all the soldiers Buffy and Satsu had to wound as they were going thru the base to get to her, then she can heal a little stake thru Renee's chest. No problem... ...which I don't really like. I didn't like it that she was able to heal all that damage back in issue #4, and I won't like it if it happens next issue, either. It takes all the drama and weight out of it when these sorts of things happen now... Also, with the non-healing of Xander's eye. Sure it might make him look cool, or whatever bullshit they might come up with. But in reality...I would want my eye back!!!! However Xander got his eye taken out 1) while he was at the vinyard and Willow was at the Summers' house and 2) before she worked the scythe spell and got all that extra magic power goodness. On a side note: aren't people able to get eye-transplants? You know, medical repair that doesn't involve magic? Just sayin. Well, if Renee dies, it's a different matter altogether. Patching up tissue, organs, flesh, etc may be possible for Willow, but can she resurrect the dead from a natural death? IF Renee dies, her death would be of natural cause. Slightly unusual circumstances maybe, but still natural, i.e. internal damage and quite possibly bleeding out. It's been pointed out at Whedonesque that Willow did restore Buffy, even after she coded on the table in S6... and bullet to the chest would be a natural way to die. Does the level of damage done matter? Is that why Buffy could be brought back? Is natural death reversible? I'm going with continuity glitch in favor of dramatic urgency. But I'd love to hear some of your thoughts... I think Willow was able to bring Buffy back (although it has never really been considered a Buffy-death) because Willow was at that moment Dark Willow. Contrasting that with Tara's death, Willow was unable to bring her back because she hadn't absorbed enough magicks yet. Post Dark Willow, we have seen Willow heal Buffy, herself in "Same Time, Same Place", and herself Issue #4. If Renee got stabbed right next to her, I don't see why she couldn't *heal* Renee and then resuscitate her. Buffy at the end of S1 was brought back by CPR, not magic. Details, dude, details. She was dead, and was brought back. If Xander could bring Buffy back by breathing air into her lungs, then isn't a reasonable to assume Willow could bring someone back by breathing magic into her body? Just repair the heart, and attempt to get all the functions going again. I think, just like with CPR or the thing with the paddles where they go "Clear!" (I'm spacing on the name right now ), the big factor would doing it as soon after the 'flatline' moment as possible... I think it's called a defibrillator, me guesses.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on May 8, 2008 19:33:04 GMT -5
I edited my previous post so that we could move on to another topic, if we wanted to.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on May 8, 2008 19:54:56 GMT -5
[But moving on... what's up with Kumiko and the hanging upside down and seemingly rooted to the ceiling by dark magic or something? I think she likes the feeling of all the 'blood of the innocent' rushing to her head. Its not like she has any circulation to get the job done. Her hanging upside down is reminiscent of bats so maybe she's getting in touch with her inner bat. It reminds me of Michael Keaton's Batman sleeping upside down...which only makes me like Kumiko all the more.
|
|
|
Post by fire2flame on May 8, 2008 21:25:44 GMT -5
I don't know if anyone's noticed this or not, but the shrine that Buffy takes the dead slayer to has 'Godzilla' written on the wall in Katakana (I studied Japanese in college). A little inside joke I thought you guys would get a kick out of.
All this talk about bringing Renee back...am I the only one who's watched Buffy and Angel? Joss never lets true love bloom. He enjoys the negative side-effects on characters much more than letting them be happy; so, I would be VERY surprised if Renee lived. He wants Xander to become a marlboro smoking vigilante, I'm thinking.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on May 8, 2008 21:35:40 GMT -5
[But moving on... what's up with Kumiko and the hanging upside down and seemingly rooted to the ceiling by dark magic or something? I think she likes the feeling of all the 'blood of the innocent' rushing to her head. Its not like she has any circulation to get the job done. Her hanging upside down is reminiscent of bats so maybe she's getting in touch with her inner bat. It reminds me of Michael Keaton's Batman sleeping upside down...which only makes me like Kumiko all the more. Don't really feel for or against her... she's just kinda there to work the dark mojo. But she seems powerful enough, and her outfit is crazily cutesy enough. Must be that ridiculous little hat she wears... wonder if she's got any bunnies in there?
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on May 8, 2008 21:42:53 GMT -5
I don't know if anyone's noticed this or not, but the shrine that Buffy takes the dead slayer to has 'Godzilla' written on the wall in Katakana (I studied Japanese in college). A little inside joke I thought you guys would get a kick out of. All this talk about bringing Renee back...am I the only one who's watched Buffy and Angel? Joss never lets true love bloom. He enjoys the negative side-effects on characters much more than letting them be happy; so, I would be VERY surprised if Renee lived. He wants Xander to become a marlboro smoking vigilante, I'm thinking. Have read that there is a sign that reads Gojira, but probably not here, so thanks for pointing it out. Careful buddy... you're treading on very combustible ground here, claiming to be the only one who's watched the shows. Yes, there's the possibility of Xander going dark, and that's actually one of the reasons given for not wanting a resurrection spell cast if Renee bites it. I disagree about the negative side effects bit. It's only negative if you don't live, learn and grow. Sure, there are a few kinks in their characters now, after the stuff that's happened to them, but the characters are no worse for the wear than if they had been happy throughout. It's what makes them three dimensional and dare I say it, interesting.
|
|
|
Post by fire2flame on May 8, 2008 21:58:05 GMT -5
Can't say 'zi' in Japanese, 'ji' is the closest you can come to it. There's also no 'L' sound, they only have the 'R' sound; though they would say there's no audible difference; therefore, 'Gojira' is 'Godzilla' in English.
"Am I the only one who watched Buffy and Angel" was said in jest, obviously. I said negative side effects only to mean that life is more interesting with stresses and pains. Can't write a good show or series about a character who gets and receives everything their heart wants. It's simply not interesting. In the end, yes, they're stronger for having struggled all their life. Life's imperfections forces characters to grow and perceive in new and uncharted ways- thus granting them access to infinity.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on May 8, 2008 22:07:42 GMT -5
I took your comment in jest, hence the smiley. And hey... being of Chinese descent, and growing up in an Asian country, I can personally vouch for the fact that the "R" and "L" sounds sometimes become interchangeable. So "zero" usually sounds like "ze-lo"... and the like.
|
|
|
Post by CowboyGuy on May 8, 2008 22:32:29 GMT -5
Xander is one unlucky guy. All his loves have died at some point, except for Willow.
|
|
El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
|
Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 8, 2008 22:35:47 GMT -5
Okay, I chimed in on the not-thinking-Renee's-dead(-for-good, at least) thing already, but the rest of my take on the issue: - Really hoping Renee makes it, even tho it contradicts my point of Willow having too much power for the purposes of good-storytelling, because while I was pretty 'whatever' about Xander/Renee early in the season, I'm really feeling it now. They're great together. Sure, she's not as good as Anya, but are we really supposed to hope he never gets involved with another girl because we want him to get back together with her? 'Cause that sure as heck ain't happenin'. Well, unless she comes back as a zombie or a ghost, and I don't think dating a zombie or a ghost is the healthiest of attachments. - Another for Buffy and Satsu. Satsu was great in this one, with the way she stood up to Buffy, and Buffy's comment at the end of that scene finally convinced me for good that, while the 'love' might not be a two-way street between them, the sexual attraction is. The "You smell really good" line in #11 was a pretty good tip-off, but I still wasn't sure that it wasn't just a case of Buffy really needing to have her clock wound, and being willing to accept it from anyone. We got the Xander/Renee kiss this issue--who wants to bet me that the Buffy/Satsu kiss comes in the next one? - Now that Dawn's there, right outside VampHQ, she oughta just grab the giant focusing crystal thingie off the roof and smash it to bits. And I loved her Herbie shirt. - There were a thousand vamps in and around the building? Is every vamp in Tokyo a member of the cult, with Drac's powers now? Yikes. - Since the next issue is the end of the arc, and Jeanty won't be working on "Time of Your Life", I hope they'll take the chance to expand it from the normal 22 pages to 25 or 26. #9 was 24 or 25, I think. Yay! Only 4 more weeks to wait for the next one. Having to wait 5, for the months when it comes out on the 7th, is brutal...
|
|