El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Aug 4, 2008 15:04:13 GMT -5
Mock and call it a conspiracy if you like, but where are the really straightforward rational arguments against? The sibling argument has always been a fraud in the Buffy/Xander case, as proven repeatedly by quotes from writers and the portrayal by the actors. It can be put forward about Xander/Dawn, but in Season 8, they clearly haven't been written with a distinctly familial overtone. So if it's not haterade, where's the argument beyond "just because"? Mocking? Who's mocking? I don't see anyone around here mocking... (Hey, has anyone seen my tinfoil hat? )
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Post by wenxina on Aug 4, 2008 15:19:59 GMT -5
Mock and call it a conspiracy if you like, but where are the really straightforward rational arguments against? The sibling argument has always been a fraud in the Buffy/Xander case, as proven repeatedly by quotes from writers and the portrayal by the actors. It can be put forward about Xander/Dawn, but in Season 8, they clearly haven't been written with a distinctly familial overtone. So if it's not haterade, where's the argument beyond "just because"? I think the conspiracy bit applies to the part where you said this KoC: The sibling argument is not fraudulent because the writers and actors said so. If that (the lover over/undertones) was the intent, I didn't see it, or more honestly, I didn't care to look for it. Plus, the performance has to be interpreted by the viewer. I don't consider Buffy and Xander siblings... but they are very good friends, and the relationship actually borders on family. But not in the happy couple kinda way. I think that people can be close, and love each other, but not want to jump each other. Oh, and that's my logical reasoning, FYI. Clearly not "haterade".
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Post by KingofCretins on Aug 4, 2008 15:35:48 GMT -5
I think the conspiracy bit applies to the part where you said this KoC: Which doesn't imply in any construction of the english language some networked conspiracy. Just that the folk who hold that view are not Xander fans. I haven't yet seen the fan of the character as something other than comic relief who squicks out over him as a potential romance for a Summers woman. I see a lot of posts on the subject that treat it as a fait accompli, though, that they are siblings, and in discrediting that theory, the work of the writers and actors is relevant. As is the fact that the first several episodes of Season 7 were written to start a romance before it was called off. There you are then. It doesn't persuade, but at least you've offered it. As for Xander/Dawn, I picked up on Season 8 subtext pretty much from the second he was swimming aroun her clothes in 8.10, and it hasn't gone away. The point I'm making there is that you can't say that their relationship hasn't been played as man-woman for a while now, enough so that a relationship wouldn't jump out of nowhere.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Aug 4, 2008 15:48:46 GMT -5
The sibling argument is not fraudulent because the writers and actors said so. If that (the lover over/undertones) was the intent, I didn't see it, or more honestly, I didn't care to look for it. Plus, the performance has to be interpreted by the viewer. I don't consider Buffy and Xander siblings... but they are very good friends, and the relationship actually borders on family. But not in the happy couple kinda way. I think that people can be close, and love each other, but not want to jump each other. Oh, and that's my logical reasoning, FYI. Clearly not "haterade". In all seriousness now, that pretty much sums up the way I feel. Comments from writers and actors don't make it canon--not until it actually happens on-screen (or now, on-page). Until then, it's all just subtext and interpretation. The key part of "subtext" is sub, after all. Until it becomes text, it's all still open to interpretation by the individual viewer/reader. S3 and 4, for example, are full of Buffy/Faith subtext, and it seems pretty obvious to me that they were playing a subplot of Faith wanting Buffy, in the groin-y way (Doug Petrie even mentions this in the "Bad Girls" AC, so there's your writer's comment regarding it, if you need one to validate it). But it's never overtly acknowledged, and not everyone sees it or believes in it. That's fine. I'd certainly never tell them that they were wrong for not believing in it, because I think that'd be pretty darn rude on my part. Opinions, by definition, aren't right or wrong. My interpretation, based on everything that we've seen over the last several seasons, is that Buffy, Dawn, Willow, Xander, and Giles have become their own little created family--four siblings and a father. There's nothing that textually confirms this (Buffy: "Oh, Xander, you're the brother I never had!"), but there's nothing textually (again: on-screen/on-page) that disproves that idea, either. So until that changes, I'd really appreciate if you had the courtesy not to tell those of us who get the sibling/family vibe that we're wrong. There's not hateration or conspiracies going on here--we simply reached a different conclusion than you based on the currently-available evidence.
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Post by KingofCretins on Aug 4, 2008 16:13:19 GMT -5
My "exegetical principle", as it was called by Maggie, the Dark Horse poster, is that the text is canon, and where the text is ambiguous, the interpretation of Joss or his writers is. Good example being when Joss basically closed the door on the untrue argument that Xander said "kick his ass" out of jealousy -- Joss' explanation becomes the canon fact, he thought Buffy needed to focus or she'd get killed.
So it follows that if the text is "ambiguous" about Buffy and Xander's relationship, the arbiters of that ambiguity are the people who created it. I personally, don't think there's nearly the textual support for them having this perfectly refined sibling-like dynamic as there is for them being at least sexually aware of each other.
In the case of Xander and Dawn, there was no ambiguity for a long time -- they were siblings, and perhaps more to that, he struck me (particularly during the early Season 7 plan for Buffy/Xander) as a surrogate father (like in "Lessons"). This, however, began being deconstructed quickly, such as in "Him", where both he and Willow showed that they were sexually aware of Dawn. From then on, it's been no more or less ambiguous than Buffy and Xander.
And if they've made it ambiguous, isn't the 'ship plausible by definition? What I'm seeing is a lot of categorical "NO. IMPOSSIBLE. BLUE JEANS. AND IRONY" coming out against Xander/Summers. As if to say, it's absolutely clear if you don't like it, and no better than ambiguous if you do.
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brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
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Post by brandonr on Aug 4, 2008 16:51:27 GMT -5
I, for one, am part of the club that thinks that the Xander/Summers relationship is a familial one, right now. It can always change later, but as of this point, its still more of a family vibe. Xander and Dawn have had some subtextual things happen, but I'm not going to go off and say that its definitely a relationship thats happening in the future. Do I think it could happen? Sure. Is there a large probability of its happening? As of now, with the little-no-evidence supplied, I think its pretty low.
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Aug 4, 2008 16:56:01 GMT -5
Besides Xander telling dawn she looked awesome, the boring and cheesy speech in "Potential" (which was more brotherly, not romantic), and her having a Jr. high crush (because we know how serious those are), there's not much going on in the way of "Dander" if you ask me.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Aug 4, 2008 22:21:36 GMT -5
My "exegetical principle", as it was called by Maggie, the Dark Horse poster, is that the text is canon, and where the text is ambiguous, the interpretation of Joss or his writers is. Well, then that's fine for you and Maggie--that's a perfectly valid viewpoint. But those who don't share that philosophy aren't wrong for not doing so. Was I mocking your "Anti-Xander" comment last night? Yes--obviously. Good-naturedly, but still, I was offended by the suggestion that those who disagree with you about B/X and D/X do so without having put any thought into it, or because we have some secret hate-based agenda. To go way back to S2 and quote Chantarelle: "Other opinions than yours may be valid, you know".
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Post by Emmie on Aug 4, 2008 22:28:28 GMT -5
El Diablo, just wanted to tell you I got a strange message today regarding the Devil's Robot betraying the Oxy Baddle league (sp?). You might want to look into relocating yourself...oh noes, they're here! Run Diablo!
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Post by abnormalpenguin on Aug 4, 2008 23:24:22 GMT -5
Hehe, love the quoting of Chantarelle/Lily/Anne. Personally, the whole subtext argument is moot. Subtext as stated above, can be picked up differently by every viewer of the show, reader of the comic, etc. I feel everyone's opinion is as valid as the next guy's. I do believe that Buffy and Xander or Dawn and Xander could be possible. But throughout the run of the show, it redefined the meaning of family time and time again. So I do think that it couldn't "just happen" randomly, there would need to be some lead up to it. If it were to happen, I don't think it would upset me much at all. I've found that most things Joss throws our way, even if they don't make sense at the time, end up usually paying off. I remember when Xander and Cordy first kissed, and I wasn't shocked, but was still kind of taken aback by the idea of it. And that ended up paying off big time. One of the most interesting relationships on the show. I was a huge Buffy/Angel fan, and when Spike fell in love with Buffy I wasn't thrilled, but again it ended up being an incredibly well done storyline that took the story to an all new place. I'd say, if it happens give it a chance, ya never know where it could lead.
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Post by KingofCretins on Aug 4, 2008 23:41:28 GMT -5
She's the one that thought vampires were lonely and misunderstood, right? That's the spokeswoman for the universal validity of opinions? :smart:
See, nobody's really conceding that, is my point. How many posts on this thread are just blanket sweeping "no" and "impossible", and usually pretexted by some personal vision of the subtext which, where ambiguous, they decide to read *against* the intent of the writers?
I think that's what rankles me -- whether you think the subtext is there or not, to simply throw up a wall of blanket denial, that such a thing is *inconceivable*, when clearly the writers *have conceived it*, is ridiculous. And that's been a battle for years over Buffy/Xander. Now, with Xander/Dawn, there is some ambiguous text (I'd love to do a poll on how many people's first reaction to the line about Dawn's centaur state was Xander telling her she was hot), but it's still absolutely bright line impossible.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Aug 4, 2008 23:42:59 GMT -5
I am anti Dander. Just saying...he seems like more of an older brother to her than anything else. I would be a million times more open to Bander than Dander!
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Post by Angelsgirl on Aug 5, 2008 4:47:12 GMT -5
Honestly, I am totally anti Dander too. I think prior to Season 8, Xander was definitely more of big brother to Dawn. But the way they are with each other in Season 8, its definitely more a good friend relationship. It definitely seems as though something is being set-up between them, both helping each other through their hard times (Dawns changes, Renee's death etc.) and i think this may lead to something more.
If the storyline is written properly I think it could be quite beautiful, all we have to think about is how much more grown up Dawn is.
But again, I personally think its still grose!! lol
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Aug 5, 2008 13:28:27 GMT -5
El Diablo, just wanted to tell you I got a strange message today regarding the Devil's Robot betraying the Oxy Baddle league (sp?). You might want to look into relocating yourself...oh noes, they're here! Run Diablo! Thanks for the heads-up, but as it turns out, I hold an important piece of info that will be the key to our eventual triumph, so I'm indispensable and un-kick-out-able. Still, I need to go back to being lo-pro about it. We're only gonna win this by being sneaky and insidious... :smart:
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Post by KingofCretins on Aug 5, 2008 13:39:28 GMT -5
I have pwnd the secret OAXABADL conspiracy like and and
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rufio
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 205
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Post by rufio on Aug 6, 2008 15:36:22 GMT -5
I want Xander + Buffy together more than Xander + Dawn. If something does develop between Dawn + Xander though, I can see Buffy getting majorly wierded out or jealous and end up wanting Xander.
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Post by gunsandsmoke on Aug 6, 2008 18:05:39 GMT -5
Its not as uncommon as some of you think. I have a few friends who ended up in a situation quite similar to this. My friend Kyle is now engaged to his close female friend's little sister. He has known her since he was in his teens and she was a child. But now everyone is grown up and people changed. I understand everyone's point that it would make the story line a bit weird if Xander ended up with Dawn, but in the real world it's not as big of a deal. So would I be REALLY thrown off if somewhere down the line Dawn's "Xander crush" feelings become more... Mature! Not really. Would I be into it? Only if it was for a reason that will effect the story down the stretch. Otherwise, why rock the boat?...
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Post by buffysmglover on Aug 6, 2008 20:26:49 GMT -5
Yay Bander, Neigh Dander!
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Post by Jsebold87 on Aug 8, 2008 23:33:02 GMT -5
I'm really not sure how I feel on this topic to be honest. There have been moments where I've thought this myself. Like the scene in "Potential", that speech he made to her was beautiful, honestly, I don't know how I'd react until something actually happened. I don't really see it as a big brother/younger sister relationship at all, I see it as a friendship.
As for Buffy & Xander together, erm... I never really liked that idea.
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rufio
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 205
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Post by rufio on Aug 9, 2008 7:17:54 GMT -5
Ok, I realized this last night as I was going to bed and it hit me like a ton of bricks. In Issue 2 we see Xander & Dawn (with a shirt on) ride off into the woods. Then, on the cover of the very next issue we see Dawn-SHIRTLESS in the woods, looking very sexy: like post-orgasm sexy. Now, with Dawn being half horse and all I'm pretty sure there is no way they would or could get that intimate (cause that'd just be weird!) but there just HAS to be something romantic between the two in the works. I'm not really against it. I mean, Dawn had a crush on him from the very beginning (Real Me) and Xander liked it when she did (Crush), they do have a cute interaction and Dawn isn't so young anymore. I predict at least a kiss between the two and Buffy seeing Xander in a different, more desirable light once he's moved past her and gone for the other Summers girl. I'm not really sure though if Buffy see's Xander like that at all or if she ever will.
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