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Post by Emmie on Dec 3, 2008 17:27:43 GMT -5
I got to say I agree with most of what Emmie wrote, but there's one thing I still fail to understand about this issue... The point is: why would ever FDW plan for "Fray's" world to be? I'm thinking of this from Present Willow's progression. From her perspective, Buffy was taken to the future in 2004. Whenever she figures out that *she* did this, then it's a fait accompli that she has to do this in the future. Because it's already happened in Willow's past. Buffy already has gone to the future and come back. But Willow in the present timeline hasn't done her part to make sure Buffy comes back safely. So she has to fulfill her part or the thing unravels and no one can predict the consequences then. I mean, you said that, following your theory, FDW has planned to sacrifice for the portal to be opened, and to consequentially get Buffy to the future, so that that future could actually be. Question is: if the timeline had to be manipulated in order for that 'kind' of future to be, why would she (FDW) want that? I think it's important to try to take an objective view of Fray's future. Is it *really* bad? Buffy herself called it a "cooler, alternate universe" before learning that her army of slayers was no more. I feel the only reason Buffy finds this future grim is because her "race of slayers" has disappeared. That's what she means by saying she has to save *her* world. Buffy means she has to save her army of slayers. Buffy's still operating under the assumption that her slayers and her world view are absolutely right. On a side note, I've been having suspicions that the vast amounts of radiation that have created the radies (mutated beings) of the future is part of the fall-out of a nuclear holocaust. An offensive strike that humanity might have taken in an all-out war against demons and slayers - trying to obliterate what they don't understand, fear and know they cannot control. So this army of slayers that Buffy is determined to save may actually lead to the future. A future nearly without Slayers, without her friends, and with her having nearly no magic left? (even if present Willow guessing on what might have happened, back in #17, keep making me doubt about that) Well, her friends would have been long dead regardless. I think Season 8 is currently exploring the ramifications of the "race of Slayers" and examining whether they're making a good difference in the world or actually causing harm. As for magic, there are prophecies that the "end of magic" is coming - perhaps it's necessary to save the world? Perhaps banishing the demons and subsequently, banishing magic, saves the world? It's something we have to keep reading Season 8 to figure out. If showing Buffy a future she would most surely have hated, was the only way for that future to be, why show her? Buffy hates it. But is Buffy right? Fray doesn't hate her future. Perhaps Willow doesn't hate it either, but rather views it as the necessary path the timestream must follow. If you'd like to read some more in-depth discussion on this, check the comments on my Live JournalETA: Ah, I see you checked out my LJ. Cool. Happy to discuss where ever, especially here which is my home forum.
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effy
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 18
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Post by effy on Dec 4, 2008 9:30:24 GMT -5
Got my issue yesterday and loved it! It's nice to know we have closure on at least one buffy character as now we know when and were willow dies. BTW does anyone else think the "most unexpected" betrayal will be Riley? Cause everyone thought it must be willow when she went dark. But I never did for two reasons: 1. When Buffy is shown beaten and bleeding she's wearing jeans and a t-shirt and not a yellow *ahem* "Damn unpractical frock" And second. The First thing when buffy sees herself like that is "Is it you?" to willow so it's not like she didn't expect willow 2 betray her somehow! I'd like to hear your thoughts
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Post by wenxina on Dec 4, 2008 15:16:11 GMT -5
Got my issue yesterday and loved it! It's nice to know we have closure on at least one buffy character as now we know when and were willow dies. BTW does anyone else think the "most unexpected" betrayal will be Riley? Cause everyone thought it must be willow when she went dark. But I never did for two reasons: 1. When Buffy is shown beaten and bleeding she's wearing jeans and a t-shirt and not a yellow *ahem* "Damn unpractical frock" And second. The First thing when buffy sees herself like that is "Is it you?" to willow so it's not like she didn't expect willow 2 betray her somehow! I'd like to hear your thoughts I didn't buy the Willow argument either, for the 2nd reason... when Robin mentioned the betrayal, she just turned right away and asked Willow point blank. Which completely threw out the "most unexpected" bit.
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effy
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 18
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Post by effy on Dec 5, 2008 19:41:39 GMT -5
Thanks and think surely buffy must have thought deep down that one day willow might go dark again!
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Joe
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Obsessive Paranoid Boob
"Gypsies are filthy people! We shall speak of zem no more!" *spits* -Ilona Costa Bianchi[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,786
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Post by Joe on Dec 6, 2008 14:55:34 GMT -5
*continues to wait for issue*
Wow I'm never buying from TFAW again.. it takes to long!
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Dec 6, 2008 18:22:57 GMT -5
*continues to wait for issue* Wow I'm never buying from TFAW again.. it takes to long! That really sucks. I feel for you.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 6, 2008 18:43:37 GMT -5
*continues to wait for issue* Wow I'm never buying from TFAW again.. it takes to long! Must be a holiday season thing. I used to order from them, when I didn't live near a comic book store, and I usually got mine by the following week, if not a little earlier. Sorry to hear that you're still out of the loop.
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effy
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 18
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Post by effy on Dec 6, 2008 21:23:18 GMT -5
*continues to wait for issue* Wow I'm never buying from TFAW again.. it takes to long! That really sucks. I feel for you. yeah lets all love joe!! You know what I really like aswell? That the sythe will survive 200 more years just to be destroyed by buffy! it really made me lol and was rather shocked that buffy could just punch right through it! Aww yeah anyone else feel now it's broken that Fray is pretty much screwed! lol
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Post by wenxina on Dec 7, 2008 12:43:52 GMT -5
Back to the topic of the mole for a bit. It kinda occurred to me that Riley may not be the mole in the Slayer organization. Someone had to have offered an invitation to the Japanese vamps when they stormed the castle in Scotland. Whoever it was, had to be a resident of the castle, as per invite rules (i.e. Xander and Anya couldn't have extended an invite into the Summers' house to Harmony in S5, it had to come from Dawn then). And considering that Riley is not a resident (he's secret hush hush guy), I'd say based on that alone, the mole issue could still be up for grabs. Unless the metaphysics have changed some since the series ended its run on television.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Dec 7, 2008 13:21:49 GMT -5
Back to the topic of the mole for a bit. It kinda occurred to me that Riley may not be the mole in the Slayer organization. Someone had to have offered an invitation to the Japanese vamps when they stormed the castle in Scotland. Whoever it was, had to be a resident of the castle, as per invite rules (i.e. Xander and Anya couldn't have extended an invite into the Summers' house to Harmony in S5, it had to come from Dawn then). And considering that Riley is not a resident (he's secret hush hush guy), I'd say based on that alone, the mole issue could still be up for grabs. Unless the metaphysics have changed some since the series ended its run on television. Is it really considered Buffy and the gang's "place of residence"? Or is it more of a public place? What determines someone's residence? I'll ask Scott Allie the next time he comes on for answering questions.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Dec 7, 2008 13:36:25 GMT -5
Back to the topic of the mole for a bit. It kinda occurred to me that Riley may not be the mole in the Slayer organization. Someone had to have offered an invitation to the Japanese vamps when they stormed the castle in Scotland. Whoever it was, had to be a resident of the castle, as per invite rules (i.e. Xander and Anya couldn't have extended an invite into the Summers' house to Harmony in S5, it had to come from Dawn then). And considering that Riley is not a resident (he's secret hush hush guy), I'd say based on that alone, the mole issue could still be up for grabs. Unless the metaphysics have changed some since the series ended its run on television. Is it really considered Buffy and the gang's "place of residence"? Or is it more of a public place? What determines someone's residence? I'll ask Scott Allie the next time he comes on for answering questions. That's what I always thought. A vacant old castle and Buffy just set up camp there. I doubt they bought the castle.
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Post by magicegidius on Dec 7, 2008 14:24:29 GMT -5
Wenxina you're right... Buffy does not own another place. So the castle is automatically her home, and the vamps are somehow invited...
Or maybe first glitch?
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darthrosenberg9
Potential Slayer
"You haven?t seen my drawer of inappropriate starches?"[Mo0:37]
Posts: 107
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Post by darthrosenberg9 on Dec 7, 2008 17:13:42 GMT -5
Actually, if Angel and the Hyperion or apartment complexes have taught us anything, I think we can assume that the castle itself is fair game, but that individual bedrooms count as homes. So, since the Japanese vampires only went into the hallways and the weapons locker, it's probably safe to assume that they didn't break any rules.
I'm not positive that they didn't enter bedrooms. I'll have to check when I get home. But if they didn't, then I think that's why.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 7, 2008 17:43:47 GMT -5
I can buy that the castle was possibly an old abandoned thing which the Slayer organization picked up, but I doubt that the local authorities would be okay with that. Meaning that while Slayer Inc. may not own the building, they're possibly leasing it, which could be enough ownership for the rule to kick in. Those of you who argue that the Hyperion was fair game, I agree. But it was a hotel, i.e. public housing. A castle is typically, or was rather, owned by some lord/baron/king/etc; it was a home. I'd argue that the rules are a little different, even if guests were typically welcomed in castles. But there is no precedent for me to make a substantial argument, so I'm willing to roll with it.
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Post by magicegidius on Dec 7, 2008 18:19:32 GMT -5
Hyperion Hotel is not very strange...
Angel had been there before and slept there before... Once a vaqmp is invited, the invitation will not wear off...
Wenxina still has a point!
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darthrosenberg9
Potential Slayer
"You haven?t seen my drawer of inappropriate starches?"[Mo0:37]
Posts: 107
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Post by darthrosenberg9 on Dec 7, 2008 22:15:56 GMT -5
Sorry for the confusion.
I was referring to Angel needing an invitation to enter Fred's bedroom in the Hyperion. ("Heartthrob") It was a specific bedroom. HE owned the building, but because that bedroom was her home, he needed an invitation to enter.
The same thing is seen with Cordelia's apartment complex. Angel can enter the hallway no problem, but he needs an invite to get into her actual place. ("Rm w/a Vu")
I imagine that the castle works the same way. The building can be entered, but individual rooms can't. Although, I definitely agree with wenxina that, historically, castles = homes and hotels do not.
Also, on the subject of ownership, I wouldn't be surprised if "International Jewel thief" Buffy can afford a castle. Rent or buy. I highly doubt that she's squatting. Also, there's the entirely-plausible-for-Season-Eight possibility that Willow just conjured the whole castle.
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Post by SlayerLV on Dec 8, 2008 1:47:46 GMT -5
Here's just my short thought about the issue. First off it was amazing!!!
Second I honestly that it was Xander with Twilight because of the muscle shirt but then my brain clicked and remembered that Xander was back at base with Dawn.
Third I'm not exactly happy that Riley is back because he was never one of my favorite characters. It bugged me that Buffy got all dressed up to meet him, does she still have feelings?
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rmw
Potential Slayer
I touch the fire and it freezes me[Mo0:25]
Posts: 102
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Post by rmw on Dec 8, 2008 20:30:26 GMT -5
*continues to wait for issue* Wow I'm never buying from TFAW again.. it takes to long! I usually never have a problem with TFAW, but this last time they screwed up my order...didn't ship it or whatever. I only just now got my issue.
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paperboat
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 3
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Post by paperboat on Dec 9, 2008 17:45:23 GMT -5
The point is: why would ever FDW plan for "Fray's" world to be? I'm thinking of this from Present Willow's progression. From her perspective, Buffy was taken to the future in 2004. Whenever she figures out that *she* did this, then it's a fait accompli that she has to do this in the future. Because it's already happened in Willow's past. Buffy already has gone to the future and come back. But Willow in the present timeline hasn't done her part to make sure Buffy comes back safely. So she has to fulfill her part or the thing unravels and no one can predict the consequences then. If showing Buffy a future she would most surely have hated, was the only way for that future to be, why show her? Buffy hates it. But is Buffy right? Fray doesn't hate her future. Perhaps Willow doesn't hate it either, but rather views it as the necessary path the timestream must follow. I understood just...well, now that these two questions of mine were strictly related. It still bothers me someway FDW leading Buffy to killing her. I'm totally with you on the 'maybe FDW doesn't hate that future' matter, but I still get to think there must be something behind that... I can buy that the castle was possibly an old abandoned thing which the Slayer organization picked up, but I doubt that the local authorities would be okay with that. Meaning that while Slayer Inc. may not own the building, they're possibly leasing it, which could be enough ownership for the rule to kick in. Well, I guess probably authorities wouldn't have got along well with an 'invasion' of these proportions, but I would first consider if they managed to notice. Scotland may not be Russia (speaking of land extension), but that really looked like a totally isolated place. And if the castle was known for being all wrecked and abandoned, why even bother to check?
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Post by wenxina on Dec 9, 2008 18:05:03 GMT -5
Well, I guess probably authorities wouldn't have got along well with an 'invasion' of these proportions, but I would first consider if they managed to notice. Scotland may not be Russia (speaking of land extension), but that really looked like a totally isolated place. And if the castle was known for being all wrecked and abandoned, why even bother to check? Authorities would probably have noticed because the sudden appearance of some few hundred girls would definitely have raised eyebrows. Also, even if the Slayer stronghold was far away enough from prying eyes, I doubt they are free from prying minds. A stronghold of that size is a major resource drain; i.e. plenty of hungry girls to feed. The food is most likely locally obtained, meaning that wherever it is they're buying stuff from is sure to be curious as to the sheer amount of rations and whatnot purchased at a time. Also, in #16, Buffy, Xander and Willow were chowing down on Chinese takeout. Whether it was a delivery or someone actually went to pick it up is less relevant; the point is, that there has to be a village/town/city (probably a town or city, if Chinese takeout is available) within a reasonable distance. Also, in #11, Buffy and Satsu are seen running around a city (doing crazy parkour stunts). Which backs up the argument that they're reasonably close to civilization, since a Slayer needs to be close to the people she's protecting. BUT... that's of course, just factoring in logic, and not the fact that Willow could probably be working some tons of mojo.
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