Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Apr 14, 2009 18:54:57 GMT -5
I always thought the whole Buffy/Faith thing was blown a little out of proportion by fans. It's there on a subtextual level, but you have people who actually think there was literal sexual tension between them during season 3, and that Faith was consciously flirting with Buffy. I even remember some fans saying, after #12, that if Buffy was going to sleep with a girl, she should have done it with Faith. You've gotta love slashers, according to them every character in every series has some secret gay love for another character.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Mathieu on Apr 14, 2009 20:15:51 GMT -5
Buffy was so into men (Angel & co) around seasons 2 and 3 that I never saw any subtext about her and Faith having a thing. To me they were just two naughty girls playing all sexy around guys. I never took it seriously.
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Apr 14, 2009 20:36:03 GMT -5
And what Buffy/Faith season 3 thing is everyone talking about? Explainy. The Buffy/Faith lesbian subtext of Season 3. It's apparently something Petrie pushed into quite a bit of his episodes (the kiss in Enemies) and something Whedon was largely unaware of til fans pointed it out to him through their meta writing. Then again, Joss has shown that he has been not too swooft on the uptake when it comes to gay/lesbian cliches and subtext. I suspect he's been educated by now, though. And c'mon... Faith and Buffy? Hawt.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 14, 2009 20:51:34 GMT -5
Buffy was so into men (Angel & co) around seasons 2 and 3 that I never saw any subtext about her and Faith having a thing. To me they were just two naughty girls playing all sexy around guys. I never took it seriously. But that's what makes it subtext and not text.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Apr 14, 2009 21:25:37 GMT -5
Buffy was so into men (Angel & co) around seasons 2 and 3 that I never saw any subtext about her and Faith having a thing. To me they were just two naughty girls playing all sexy around guys. I never took it seriously. But that's what makes it subtext and not text. Again, to me there was no text and no subtext whatsoever. I mean, if even Joss Whedon himself hadn't seen anything, how could there be anything at all??? You have to be a crazy fan over-analyzing everything to see anything between Faith and Buffy going on back in season 3. I'm a crazy fan, I just don't over-analyze. Some people try to see gay subtext everywhere.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
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Post by Marcos on Apr 14, 2009 21:32:07 GMT -5
Buffy was so into men (Angel & co) around seasons 2 and 3 that I never saw any subtext about her and Faith having a thing. To me they were just two naughty girls playing all sexy around guys. I never took it seriously. But that's what makes it subtext and not text. Yeah, the subtext was really there. The Bad Girls scene with Faith, the kiss-and-heart in the class' window? I didn't think "Hey, I guess Faith is gay and hot for Buffy". What you think is that Buffy and Faith's relationship became kinda hot in a way you can relate to sexuality, but it's not actually about sexuality. Another example, IMO, is Spike/Angel. Buffy herself made fun of it in Chosen LOL (and the tension would get even 'hotter' in Angel s5). There's a lot of gay Spike-Angel fan art out there. Subtext can be so funny OH, and Andrew/Warren also. And Andrew/Spike! I'm surprised that Andrew is still in the closet. imo, the guys is really gay. For now, it's only subtext, but I guess it'll be more than that.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Mathieu on Apr 14, 2009 21:55:06 GMT -5
But that's what makes it subtext and not text. Yeah, the subtext was really there. The Bad Girls scene with Faith, the kiss-and-heart in the class' window? I didn't think "Hey, I guess Faith is gay and hot for Buffy". What you think is that Buffy and Faith's relationship became kinda hot in a way you can relate to sexuality, but it's not actually about sexuality. Another example, IMO, is Spike/Angel. Buffy herself made fun of it in Chosen LOL (and the tension would get even 'hotter' in Angel s5). There's a lot of gay Spike-Angel fan art out there. Subtext can be so funny OH, and Andrew/Warren also. And Andrew/Spike! I'm surprised that Andrew is still in the closet. imo, the guys is really gay. For now, it's only subtext, but I guess it'll be more than that. When it comes to guys, Angel/Spike for example, if there's any subtext it becomes more ambiguous right away because let's face it dudes don't joke around about being gay if they're not. When it comes to girls, it's much more common that they will act like they're very close, intimate, almost sexual between them, but more for the fun of it or for the sake of turning on guys. When Faith drew the heart on the window, I only saw it as her being playful, not to say "slutty". I wouldn't call it subtext, or else it's really not subtle. Just chicks being what they were back then, teenagers, and acting slutty. Do I use the word slutty too much?
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Post by Emmie on Apr 14, 2009 22:04:24 GMT -5
But that's what makes it subtext and not text. Again, to me there was no text and no subtext whatsoever. I mean, if even Joss Whedon himself hadn't seen anything, how could there be anything at all??? You have to be a crazy fan over-analyzing everything to see anything between Faith and Buffy going on back in season 3. I'm a crazy fan, I just don't over-analyze. Some people try to see gay subtext everywhere. It's something Joss himself didn't put in there, but Doug Petrie most definitely did in the episodes he wrote. And Joss later admitted that yes it was there. There's really not much to debate about it. The symbolism is there. The metaphor is there. Do I think Buffy and Faith want each other? No. But there was clear subtext for it during Season 3.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
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Post by Marcos on Apr 14, 2009 22:06:58 GMT -5
Yeah, the subtext was really there. The Bad Girls scene with Faith, the kiss-and-heart in the class' window? I didn't think "Hey, I guess Faith is gay and hot for Buffy". What you think is that Buffy and Faith's relationship became kinda hot in a way you can relate to sexuality, but it's not actually about sexuality. Another example, IMO, is Spike/Angel. Buffy herself made fun of it in Chosen LOL (and the tension would get even 'hotter' in Angel s5). There's a lot of gay Spike-Angel fan art out there. Subtext can be so funny OH, and Andrew/Warren also. And Andrew/Spike! I'm surprised that Andrew is still in the closet. imo, the guys is really gay. For now, it's only subtext, but I guess it'll be more than that. When it comes to guys, Angel/Spike for example, if there's any subtext it becomes more ambiguous right away because let's face it dudes don't joke around about being gay if they're not. When it comes to girls, it's much more common that they will act like they're very close, intimate, almost sexual between them, but more for the fun of it or for the sake of turning on guys. When Faith drew the heart on the window, I only saw it as her being playful, not to say "slutty". I wouldn't call it subtext, or else it's really not subtle. Just chicks being what they were back then, teenagers, and acting slutty. Do I use the word slutty too much? As I see it, the text tells us that Faith was being playful, as you put it. The subtext of it is the gay thing. So, it's all a matter of interpreting a scene, decoding it in different ways (a semiotic process). There's always the clear, objective way, and then there's subtext. Buffy is a show built on metaphors, so I guess it's natural that we look at everything with subtexty eyes. And Joss himself recognized that the gay thing was not fan's pure unreasonable imagination. It could be read. And it was.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 14, 2009 22:21:42 GMT -5
I always thought the whole Buffy/Faith thing was blown a little out of proportion by fans. It's there on a subtextual level, but you have people who actually think there was literal sexual tension between them during season 3, and that Faith was consciously flirting with Buffy. I even remember some fans saying, after #12, that if Buffy was going to sleep with a girl, she should have done it with Faith. You've gotta love slashers, according to them every character in every series has some secret gay love for another character. Well, then I'm guilty, I guess, because that's how I've always taken it. Okay, I admit that I didn't notice a thing during the first viewing, but once someone pointed it out to me, it was like one of those puzzles with the image hidden inside, where once you see it you can't un-see it. To me, Faith was flirting with Buffy almost from the moment she hit town, and Buffy either didn't notice (being still so wrapped up in Angel at the time), or chose to ignore it. I actually think it's not only an important insight into Faith's character, but also a major factor in her downfall toward the end of S3. From a character perspective, you get the feeling that she's never had many friends in her life--not the way normal, healthy people define 'friends', anyway. But she has had plenty of sex. She wants to be Buffy's friend, but just doesn't really know how to make that connection in the traditional way, so she resorts to what she knows (evidenced by her "What are friends for?" comment at the beginning of "Bad Girls"). And then once she feels like Buffy turns against her after Finch's death, it's like a double-rejection: as a potential friend and lover, and is twice as painful because of it. Here's my best story on how obvious that subtext was: My mom is also a fan of the shows, so much so that she's even reading the comics. She read the first few issues of S8, and then I didn't get a chance to bring the next few over for awhile, and she kinda fell behind. She's on the computer one day, goes to whedon.info, sees the thumbnail of the page of Buffy and Satsu in bed together, and quickly clicks away, realizing that was something she hadn't read yet and didn't want to be spoiled by. Next time I had the chance to talk to her about the comics, she mentions she saw a picture of Buffy in bed with a girl, and adds, "It was probably Faith, right?" That told me that if my mom was picking up on something back during S3/4, then there was something there.
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sire
Potential Slayer
Glad to see you've found the softer side of Sears[Mo0:0]
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Post by sire on Apr 14, 2009 22:34:39 GMT -5
This was the first time ive read these comics and thought WOW, this really really suffered from authentic dialogue. It smacked of the older dark horse non cannon comics. Such a shame because i was really looking forward to seeing what Faith and Giles have been up to... Something im still not entirely sure??? randomly wandering around running into annoying slayer wannabes? hm. Very silly.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 14, 2009 23:08:42 GMT -5
GILES: "The only chance you have at finishing this Slayer is by getting close to her through subterfuge and cunning." FAITH: "Hey, I likes me some kink, but if you think I'm going downtown on this chick, you chose the wrong Chosen One." First of all, ;D . And second of all... Since nothing apparently happened between Faith and Gigi in NFFY (and admit it... we were all waitin' for it, naked bath scenes and all )... I'd say Faith has no canonical lesbian tendencies that she knows of or is willing to admit to. And Brian K. Vaughan certainly isn't shy about writing such things. But, that's what fanfic is for. There are entire sites devoted to "Fuffy." A lot of it is quite good, too.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 14, 2009 23:26:49 GMT -5
GILES: "The only chance you have at finishing this Slayer is by getting close to her through subterfuge and cunning." FAITH: "Hey, I likes me some kink, but if you think I'm going downtown on this chick, you chose the wrong Chosen One." First of all, ;D . And second of all... Since nothing apparently happened between Faith and Gigi in NFFY (and admit it... we were all waitin' for it, naked bath scenes and all )... I'd say Faith has no canonical lesbian tendencies that she knows of or is willing to admit to. And Brian K. Vaughan certainly isn't shy about writing such things. Either Faith's not a lesbian and only has the hots for Buffy, or else she's still far enough in the closet that she's not willing to admit to it to Giles. And since she clearly wasn't real thrilled about being the first one he thought of when he needed an assassin, maybe she just really resented being thought of as a whore, too. And c'mon: who knows what type of deleted scene there was between the surveillance-tape viewing and the bath stuff? (For the record, I don't think Faith's "gay", just that she's a very sexual person who doesn't always make distinctions when it comes to who she's attracted to.) The thing about subtext is that, almost by its very nature, it's open to individual interpretation. That is, until it becomes text, at which point it becomes open to a different sort of interpretation. I mean, just as another example, I view the Buffy/Xander/Willow dynamic as that of three siblings, but there are fans out there who can point to different things as evidence supporting a possible future romantic relationship between B and X. It's all how you personally want to interpret the 'verse for your own viewing/reading pleasure. Which is why I sometimes get aggravated when I see some fans tell others that their take on certain aspects of subtext is "wrong", when there's nothing textually (yet) that backs them up on that.
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sire
Potential Slayer
Glad to see you've found the softer side of Sears[Mo0:0]
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Post by sire on Apr 15, 2009 9:04:45 GMT -5
Well said El Diablo Robotico i too have always thought of the buffxanwill as siblings and never ever wanted the Buffy/xander relationship to come to fruition.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 15, 2009 9:22:58 GMT -5
I could certainly imagine Faith having sex with a woman. Even falling in love with one. All we know is she's not admitting to such things. But clearly she wouldn't have the "eeew, that's icky and wrong" reaction to get past before she did.
Before season 8, I'd have picked Faith as being way more likely than Buffy to sleep with a woman, so you never know. People can be surprising, especially in the Jossverse.
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BenTaylor3907
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Illyria's Qwa'ha Xahn
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Apr 15, 2009 20:43:40 GMT -5
I finally decided to go to my comic store and pick up this issue. Guess what? They didn't have Chen's cover. Fail! I was very disappointed in Cliff Richards' interior work. I love Faith's lines: "She's calling me names, G.". I highly doubt that Giles is now the only Watcher left. So Fillworthe was eaten by the demon? And how was the monster defeated? It seemed that Faith hit it with her crossbow and it exploded. And the explosion itself was way to epic. By the looks of what the Vampires saw, Faith, Giles, and Coco should have been killed in the blast. Id did like how the townspeople gathered with weapons to fight the Vampires, although I hope they all die for what they've done. I was so like "OH NO YOU DIDN'T!" when Fillworthe brought Buffy and Jenny up. As many of you have said before, Faith wasn't acting herself.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 15, 2009 20:59:06 GMT -5
Scott Allie said in the last Q&A that the "blast" was just a light show caused by the demon's energy being released as it died.
I did wonder what happened to Fillworthe, though... the demon ate him literally seconds before Faith killed it and caused it to blow apart. So unless the demon chewed him up, he should still have been alive somewhere there among the sashimi bits.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
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Post by Marcos on Apr 15, 2009 22:04:46 GMT -5
So unless the demon chewed him up, he should still have been alive somewhere there among the sashimi bits. gross, but true LOL
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Apr 15, 2009 22:14:02 GMT -5
Scott Allie said in the last Q&A that the "blast" was just a light show caused by the demon's energy being released as it died. I totally missed that it was JUST a light show and not, like, a bigass explosion. Just. Not. Clear. Giles should have at least stated the obvious again. Liiike... "You killed the demon with a crossbow then there was light coming out of it." Yeah, that woulda worked for me. ;D (Please, I'm ready for Jane now!)
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 15, 2009 23:15:21 GMT -5
I totally missed that it was JUST a light show and not, like, a bigass explosion. Just. Not. Clear. Giles should have at least stated the obvious again. Liiike... "You killed the demon with a crossbow then there was light coming out of it." Yeah, in that case it probably would have been better to color the "flames" green or something, rather than... you know, flame-colored.
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