|
Post by Emmie on Feb 6, 2009 19:44:40 GMT -5
This thread is for people to weigh in on the topic of canon in the comics and in this board, the canon of the ANGEL comics by IDW Publishing. So feel free to share your opinions on where canon sits in your priorities of the 'verse. Thoughts on the subject: I definitely agree that it's a slippery slope and all the IDW properties have the potential to oversaturate the market.
Whenever I go into my comic store, the owner always pulls everything Angel related out for me but I can't afford to buy all that. Poor student working part-time. I always buy Buffy Season 8 and After the Fall. Now we're going to be having a ridiculous amount of releases coming from IDW and I'm wondering where the money is coming for customers buying all these products.
I'm worried that people will be forced to pick and choose what they can buy - Spike or Angel, Drusilla mini-series or Blood and Trenches, not to mention many people who would need to buy all of Fallen Angel to get caught up for the Illyria crossover. It's A LOT. And there's only so many Buffyverse and Angel fans out there. Maybe it's good business for IDW to be marketing their most popular licensed series. But I'm feeling a little overwhelmed.
As for canon, I think it's reached the point where the traditional definition of canon - Joss Whedon's involvement - is being tossed out the window over at IDW. No way all these projects have been run by Joss and he's had some direct input. Canon. The dreaded topic.
The problem with not having it defined is that eventually the stories don't match up. I like being able to look at a story and say, "There! That's a continuation of the story from a few years ago." And the important thing to remember is that Whedon's works are all incredibly long stories that deal with consistent character progression.
This means that canon becomes even more important in the Whedonverse because the story is written with the intention that it all connects to a greater picture. My concern with all these different properties occurring over at IDW is it lacks the one vision to unify them. Obviously Ryall is going to be the editor for these works, but I'm talking about the creative story control of an Executive Producer in the way that Joss and Minear and Fury ran the story.
Who is the one creative mind keeping the Angelverse together? I don't think they have one and that concerns me.
|
|
|
Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 6, 2009 19:54:02 GMT -5
Canon means a hell of a lot to me, as someone who likes to go through everything chronologically, knowing what is official and what's not matters to me. That is one of my problems with what is happening to the Angel series, it's not clear, but for some reason I'm not caring much. As long the issues continuing After the Fall, including the Spike series, remain linear, canon wont matter much to me, I'll keep reading even if I do or don't regard them as official.
I love the characters, I can't get enough of them. I love the Buffy and Angel novels and I love the old Buffy and Angel comics... even though none of those are canon. As long as we get more of the characters, I'm happy. Now will I be afford all the comics IDW are coming out with? No, not at all. I'll just be sticking with the Angel continuity and probably the collections of Spike.
|
|
Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
|
Post by Malsad on Feb 6, 2009 19:54:05 GMT -5
the answer to some extent i dont think joss should be the only cannoniser there should be at least 3 people that have command over the issue
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 6, 2009 20:00:17 GMT -5
Now will I be afford all the comics IDW are coming out with? No, not at all. I'll just be sticking with the Angel continuity and probably the collections of Spike. That's a concern for me also. If I had unlimited funds, I'd probably buy all of them. I simply can't and it hurts me to think that I can't afford to read all these stories. It's being spread too widely for me. The comics are becoming more expensive than the cost of owning the entire sets of BUFFY and ANGEL on dvd. Remember when they were on sale for a ridiculously low amount on Amazon around Christmastime?
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Feb 6, 2009 20:12:02 GMT -5
Canon matters. If it didn't, there'd be no way for constructive dialogue regarding plot points, characterization, etc because any number of people may have their own idea of what works are canon. For better or worse, official canonicity keeps things simple: everything in this box is canon, and therefore viable fodder for discussion. Everything else is NOT canon, and while they may be very well-written and entertaining, shouldn't enter the arena of canon discussions.
I agree with Paul's post (in the other thread), stating that we may be stepping dangerously close to Marvel universe here. Wyndam, I disagree that the Buffyverse (including Angel... same 'verse to me... until now, keep reading) hasn't reached a point of conflicting narratives. While many have decided that the events of AtF#16 make sense in how well it merges with the S8 continuity, I disagree. While Angel and Spike may now be champions of LA (formerly, Hell-A), demons and other vampires would be feared. If nothing else, there should be no way that Harmony is able to manipulate her audience with her ditzy act. Even if it's just LA that remembers the events of AtF. The MTV headquarters was in LA. Harmony's filming in LA. I'd say that people are more than likely to drive a stake into her heart than offer themselves to be slurped on.
Thus, since both S8 and AtF are supposed to be canon, I'd argue that a rift has formed between the two continuities. One can of course reconcile this by placing both S8 and all Angel stories in equal but separate alternate realities (wow... is that a bad analogy, or what?). But fracturing the 'verse doesn't make me a happy camper. Of course there's also the choice of ignoring one for the other... If I had to make a choice, mine would have a heartbeat... because, as Emmie stated... a unifying vision is key in keeping a story coherent in the long run.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 6, 2009 20:28:44 GMT -5
Someone was saying on another board that it's like a Marvel vs. DC universe conflict. But it's not even that really. The difference is two different philosophies for Dark Horse and IDW.
A unifying vision versus a bunch of stories being created. IDW is splitting the story and characters up even more and that worries me because the cool thing about the Buffyverse going into comics was that it was THE story.
Also, the way First Night and Spike: After the Fall fit into Angel: After the Fall bothered me also. You shouldn't have to buy two seperate titles all at once to fully understand a story. The continuity of the Angelverse is already getting confusing (when are you supposed to read S:AtF in relation to A:AtF?) and a part of me wonders if Spike: After the Fall was a precursor to test the waters about Spike getting his own series post-AtF.
The reason everyone looks to Joss is because he's the one unifying creative force for the 'verse. That's always been the case for 10 years. Until now.
And funnily enough, it's making for interesting meta to look at this situation. Vampires (IDW) vs. Slayers (DH) - they can't even coexist under the same publisher.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Feb 6, 2009 20:30:50 GMT -5
And funnily enough, it's making for interesting meta to look at this situation. Vampires (IDW) vs. Slayers (DH) - they can't even coexist under the same publisher. Or the same TV network, back in the day. *sigh*
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 6, 2009 20:36:13 GMT -5
And funnily enough, it's making for interesting meta to look at this situation. Vampires (IDW) vs. Slayers (DH) - they can't even coexist under the same publisher. Or the same TV network, back in the day. *sigh* Which at least had the same creators with Mutant Enemy and 20th Century Fox. The schism of the Buffyverse. All hail.
|
|
Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
|
Post by Paul on Feb 6, 2009 20:37:02 GMT -5
See my previous comments about canon in the other thread: www.slayaliveforums.proboards50.com/index.cgi?board=novelsandcomics&action=display&thread=5191&page=1#95904For me, canon depends on the series/franchise. For example, I don't give a toss about canon when it comes to the Marvel Universe. There's 40+ years worth of stories by thousands of writers, and so long as the continuity makes basic sense, then it's canon. With the Terminator and Halloween series, there are multiple canons due to retcons and reboots; I tend to just pick the one closest to my heart ( Sarah Connor Chronicles and Halloween H20, if you're interested) but it doesn't mean I can't enjoy the other stories not set in my favourite timeline. However, with the Buffyverse, we have always had Joss Whedon's single vision guiding the franchise and defining what is and is not canon. Joss himself seems pretty strict when it comes to canon and I tend to follow this quote: "Canon is key, as is continuity. If you are massive nerd. Which I am. I believe there's a demarcation between the creation and ancillary creations by different people. I'm all for that stuff, just like fanfic, but I like to know what's there's an absolutely official story-so-far, especially when something changes mediums, which my stuff seems to do a lot."For me, canon is much more about quality control than actual continuity. For example, I count Brian Lynch's Spike trilogy as canon because it was what convinced Joss to get Brian to write Angel: After the Fall. That implies that Joss considers those series canon-level quality. Even though Asylum and Shadow Puppets don't really fit into the timeline (they're in a kind of vague continuity limbo, am I right?), they're still spiritually canon and the references in After the Fall just back that up. On the other hand, Aftermath has had no comments from Joss and seems more like IDW just want to continue their profitable series under any circumstances (understandably). There's been some "approval" by Joss mentioned in interviews, but for all we know that's just the usual "ok" that all merchandise recieves. The fact that Joss hasn't been involved in the plotting of Aftermath or even mentioned the series makes the series extremely conspicious to me; if he truly did approve the story as canon, we would know about it. I'm not sure whether I'm going to count Aftermath as canon until I've actually read it myself, and judged how well it fits in with the rest of the Buffverse. With Joss' influence over the Angel books waning, but IDW continuing to promote stories as the "official continuation", the line between canon and non-canon is becoming increasingly—and annoyingly—blurred. I see a lot of people saying "Oh well, we might as well accept it as canon because we're not getting anything else." That's not good enough for me. What if Season Eight had never been made? Would you all have counted Queen of the Slayers as canon just because it was the only story avaliable? Or would you still have recognised it as glorified fan fiction that doesn't do justice to the source material? I might be willing to accept Aftermath and Lynch's new Spike series as canon, so long as the quality keeps up, but if IDW continue to bring out indiscriminate mini-series after mini-series, they're going to dilute the franchise. Remember it was Joss' involvement in AtF and the "canon" label which boosted the Angel comics' popularity in the first place. They should respect that. As Emmie pointed out, we need a single creative mind to keep things focused and consistant. For the record, I can enjoy non-canon material. Go Ask Malice and the "Year One" stories in the old Buffy comic are personal favourites of mine. But still like to think that there's an "exclusive" Buffyverse canon that only Joss-approved stories can be a part of.
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on Feb 6, 2009 20:43:02 GMT -5
Lol not an hour ago I promised myself I would stay out of this thread because I was sick and tired of the canon debates and that the Aftermath debates still gave me headaches, but here we go: I agree with Paul's post (in the other thread), stating that we may be stepping dangerously close to Marvel universe here. Wyndam, I disagree that the Buffyverse (including Angel... same 'verse to me... until now, keep reading) hasn't reached a point of conflicting narratives. While many have decided that the events of AtF#16 make sense in how well it merges with the S8 continuity, I disagree. While Angel and Spike may now be champions of LA (formerly, Hell-A), demons and other vampires would be feared. If nothing else, there should be no way that Harmony is able to manipulate her audience with her ditzy act. Even if it's just LA that remembers the events of AtF. The MTV headquarters was in LA. Harmony's filming in LA. I'd say that people are more than likely to drive a stake into her heart than offer themselves to be slurped on. While there is definitely an argument here, I don't see it this way at all. Do I think what happened in #16 and #21 synchs up perfectly? Definitely not, because there was never an intentional semi-crossover planned, what happened was a coincidence that worked out pretty well (imo of course). There is around a year between AtF #16 and where S8 is at now. That is a long time in L.A. People leave the city, people come to the city, companies collapse, companies expand, people change, hell I am sure a lot of people resumed their normal lives thinking what happened was a dream. Just because Angel is a hero to SOME, doesn't mean that everyone believes that, some of the people that made Harmony's show happened may be more interested in making money than dealing with their own personal feelings towards demons. Harmony presented them with an opportunity to capitalize on this new world filled with supernatural creatures. It is impossible to assume that everyone would want Harmony dead because of what Angel did, just like the assumptions I am making right now are pretty impossible to prove, because we just cannot say for a fact that everyone feels the same way. All we can do is look at both stories and that just because Hell-A was literally Hell, that everyone would turn down an opportunity to make money from a reality show about a vampire. It is assuming way too much than what we were given on page. I think we all know what Hollywood is like. All they see are dollar bills. That's it from me for this thread, hopefully Pat will get back to posting soon so I'm not the only here that has to defend the Angel comics. :broody:
|
|
Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
Joss Is Boss
Banner & Avatar Made By CBG[Mo0:3][Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,312
|
Post by Whedon Fan on Feb 6, 2009 20:44:22 GMT -5
Canon does and should matter to an extent. I do admit to looking for the canon stamp on most comics. However After The Fall is canon which means anything following the same story line should be considered canon as well. For example "Aftermath" follows the numbering and the story so it more or less is canon same goes for the Spike on going series it takes place after the events of "After The Fall" and if it's the same for the Drusilla story then I'll calls it as canon. The only way I wouldn't class any of them as canon would be if they suddenly had Fred walking around because it was clearly stated that she is dead, same goes for if they brought back Wesley again he's dead. Don't bring back dead charatcers that have been killed off and don't re-use story lines. As long as the story follows the orignial that was set up then I'm happy.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 6, 2009 20:48:07 GMT -5
That's it from me for this thread, hopefully Pat will get back to posting soon so I'm not the only here that has to defend the Angel comics. Wyndam, from what I've seen on Whedonesque and other forums we're the only site that is criticizing this move. It's not that I don't think the comics will be enjoyable, but it's never been more clear to me that IDW and DH are telling these stories with entirely different philosophies. And for me, I like a story that all fits together as one bigger story. The jumps in narrative over at IDW have been bothering me for a while. Why are we doing mini-series instead of one joint story? And the answer I keep coming back to is either money or the writer's not wanting to keep the 'verse all together. It being together is what made it feel like Angel to me. And is it even fair to call it the Angelverse over at IDW considering that Spike is getting a series that will run indefinitely but Angel's is only going for 6 issues currently? Do we now also have a Spikeverse and an Illyriaverse? *shakes head* Do you see how the continuity is no longer so continuous? Read Angel: After the Fall, then jump to the left halfway through and read Spike: After the Fall, then jump to Aftermath, but wait you also at some point need to jump to the Drusilla mini-series and then Spike's series and somehow fit in the time to buy and read all of Fallen Angel so that Illyria's crossover makes sense. Yeah, that's simple. Continuous => uninterrupted connection, succession or union. That string is being drawn mighty thin. What's more, with all these stories being told seperately, I've lost hope that there'll be a joint theme or greater story told between them.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Feb 6, 2009 20:59:02 GMT -5
There is around a year between AtF #16 and where S8 is at now. That is a long time in L.A. People leave the city, people come to the city, companies collapse, companies expand, people change, hell I am sure a lot of people resumed their normal lives thinking what happened was a dream. Just because Angel is a hero to SOME, doesn't mean that everyone believes that, some of the people that made Harmony's show happened may be more interested in making money than dealing with their own personal feelings towards demons. Harmony presented them with an opportunity to capitalize on this new world filled with supernatural creatures. It is impossible to assume that everyone would want Harmony dead because of what Angel did, just like the assumptions I am making right now are pretty impossible to prove, because we just cannot say for a fact that everyone feels the same way. All we can do is look at both stories and that just because Hell-A was literally Hell, that everyone would turn down an opportunity to make money from a reality show about a vampire. It is assuming way too much than what we were given on page. I think we all know what Hollywood is like. All they see are dollar bills. That's it from me for this thread, hopefully Pat will get back to posting soon so I'm not the only here that has to defend the Angel comics. I'd agree, except that if people in general can accept Angel as a hero based on what could easily have been a city-wide acid trip (well, it worked as an explanation for Sunnydale...), then I'd say that people would in general accept vampires as evil. And even if nobody said anything, for fear of sounding like a nutcase, there should at least be a level of fear and revulsion for them... enough so that there would be a witch hunt-ish atmosphere for demonkind. Would actually have made an interesting storyline. While Hollywood execs are supposed to be soulless, I don't think they would risk making a Harmony reality TV show. Maybe time does change things, and I'll wait for the end of AtF (possibly Aftermath) and S8 to make a final evaluation. But at this point, things just seem too disparate for me to consider part of the same continuity. However, that's not to say that I didn't enjoy AtF (well, the first 16 issues anyway). The writing was great, and while the art was spotty in various areas, the end product is still pretty damn good. If the quality of the other books is high, I'll probably enjoy them too, but they just won't be canon if they don't fall into the official Buffyverse canon.
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on Feb 6, 2009 21:01:57 GMT -5
That's it from me for this thread, hopefully Pat will get back to posting soon so I'm not the only here that has to defend the Angel comics. Wyndam, from what I've seen on Whedonesque and other forums we're the only site that is criticizing this move. It's not that I don't think the comics will be enjoyable, but it's never been more clear to me that IDW and DH are telling these stories with entirely different philosophies. And for me, I like a story that all fits together as one bigger story. The jumps in narrative over at IDW have been bothering me for a while. Why are we doing mini-series instead of one joint story? And the answer I keep coming back to is either money or the writer's not wanting to keep the 'verse all together. It being together is what made it feel like Angel to me. And is it even fair to call it the Angelverse over at IDW considering that Spike is getting a series that will run indefinitely but Angel's is only going for 6 issues currently? Do we now also have a Spikeverse and an Illyriaverse? *shakes head* Do you see how the continuity is no longer so continuous? Read Angel: After the Fall, then jump to the left halfway through and read Spike: After the Fall, then jump to Aftermath, but wait you also at some point need to jump to the Drusilla mini-series and then Spike's series and somehow fit in the time to buy and read all of Fallen Angel so that Illyria's crossover makes sense. Yeah, that's simple. Continuous => uninterrupted connection, succession or union. That string is being drawn mighty thin. What's more, with all these stories being told seperately, I've lost hope that there'll be a joint theme or greater story told between them. I still do not see any issue with more material. Maybe it is the optimist in me, but how is a new Spike series any different than the Faith & Giles spin-off everyone wants for Buffy: Season 8 or even the Spike TV series/TV movie/whatever that almost happened? Or the Faith series? Universes expand, and usually in a good way. Brian all but hinted over at Whedonesque that Angel and Spike's stories will be interconnected in some way, so we will still be working towards the big picture, only now we get to see another side of the story. I just do not see any downside to that. We are smart enough to know what order to read something in. I don't see why we have to give up new material because everything isn't ordered by one neat and tidy numerical system.
|
|
Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
|
Post by Paul on Feb 6, 2009 21:07:13 GMT -5
That's it from me for this thread, hopefully Pat will get back to posting soon so I'm not the only here that has to defend the Angel comics. Wyndam, from what I've seen on Whedonesque and other forums we're the only site that is criticizing this move. It's not that I don't think the comics will be enjoyable, but it's never been more clear to me that IDW and DH are telling these stories with entirely different philosophies. And for me, I like a story that all fits together as one bigger story. The jumps in narrative over at IDW have been bothering me for a while. Why are we doing mini-series instead of one joint story? And the answer I keep coming back to is either money or the writer's not wanting to keep the 'verse all together. It being together is what made it feel like Angel to me. And is it even fair to call it the Angelverse over at IDW considering that Spike is getting a series that will run indefinitely but Angel's is only going for 6 issues currently? Do we now also have a Spikeverse and an Illyriaverse? *shakes head* Do you see how the continuity is no longer so continuous? Read Angel: After the Fall, then jump to the left halfway through and read Spike: After the Fall, then jump to Aftermath, but wait you also at some point need to jump to the Drusilla mini-series and then Spike's series and somehow fit in the time to buy and read all of Fallen Angel so that Illyria's crossover makes sense. Yeah, that's simple. Continuous => uninterrupted connection, succession or union. That string is being drawn mighty thin. What's more, with all these stories being told seperately, I've lost hope that there'll be a joint theme or greater story told between them. Complicated continuity doesn't bother me, but as you say, the franchise is becoming so fractured. Instead of having all these stories taking place under one title like Season Eight, we've got all these mini-series going off in different directions. Emmie is also right about the lack of a bigger picture. In the TV series, we had Joss seeding Dawn and Dark Willow as early as season three and four. Where's that kind of foresight and intricate storytelling in the Angel books? We've got one writer following another in short runs with no overall guiding voice.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 6, 2009 21:08:36 GMT -5
I actually didn't want the Faith/Giles spinoff for this very reason. It separates them from the main story.
And with the Spike and Faith movies, that was all we were going to get. And again with these movies, one unifying vision would be behind it.
The universes feel irreparably split to me now because of the different philosophies of DH and IDW.
And here's another thing about the continuation of the shows in the comics - what makes BUFFY work is that its modeled to resemble a televised season in comic form. After the Fall worked as kinda a summer blockbuster almost like 24's two hour special before this year's season began. But instead of After the Fall heading into a season, we're getting a bunch of concurrent mini-series. It's the opposite of a unifying vision. Maybe we'll get great stories, but it keeps getting further away from ANGEL's original format for me.
|
|
BenTaylor3907
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Illyria's Qwa'ha Xahn
~ Listening To Fear ~[Mo0:25]
Posts: 2,958
|
Post by BenTaylor3907 on Feb 6, 2009 21:26:05 GMT -5
I guess "canon" does matter. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean I won't read it if its not. It just matters (to me) because I would like to know what is really going on, you know? But it all depends on the person. For example, I considered Spike: Asylum and Spike: Shadow Puppets canon way before After the Fall came out. They were brilliantly written and I loved everything about them.
|
|
|
Post by Wyndam on Feb 6, 2009 21:29:23 GMT -5
The universes feel irreparably split to me now because of the different philosophies of DH and IDW. I don't understand this. Why must Angel and Buffy operate the same way? Hell, Angel started a few months after Buffy and the two series almost have the exact same number of issues out, if you want to look at it that way (Buffy: 22, Angel: 20). Joss abandoned a series and it was left to IDW to pick up the pieces, continue it, and make it work. In my opinion, they have succeeded in doing that, and have done a good job at it as well. I don't see why it is IDW's fault for something that Joss did. So far, Angel has had a unifying vision, in the way of IDW and Brian. Kelley is coming in to write an arc, much like how Drew Goddard wrote a S8 arc, or Brian K. Vaughn. I think at this point, I would rather have Brian and Co. be the official word on Angel's story than Joss anyway, because then I at least know the people in charge are excited about continuing the storyline, instead of passing it off to other people like Joss did. Just because Angel isn't structured like a television season and Joss isn't overseeing it, I think it is a little too soon to call that there is no vision for what the future brings, or that something isn't necessary, especially before we have even read any of the new material. Especially when, so far, we have been given quality work with everything that has been released in the AtF storyline. Joss laid the ground work for Angel, sure, but now the series is evolving into something extremely enjoyable, and is not just a series that ended 4 years ago, thanks to IDW.
|
|
Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
|
Post by Malsad on Feb 6, 2009 21:35:26 GMT -5
The universes feel irreparably split to me now because of the different philosophies of DH and IDW. I don't understand this. Why must Angel and Buffy operate the same way? Hell, Angel started a few months after Buffy and the two series almost have the exact same number of issues out, if you want to look at it that way (Buffy: 22, Angel: 20). Joss abandoned a series and it was left to IDW to pick up the pieces, continue it, and make it work. In my opinion, they have succeeded in doing that, and have done a good job at it as well. I don't see why it is IDW's fault for something that Joss did. So far, Angel has had a unifying vision, in the way of IDW and Brian. Kelley is coming in to write an arc, much like how Drew Goddard wrote a S8 arc, or Brian K. Vaughn. I think at this point, I would rather have Brian and Co. be the official word on Angel's story than Joss anyway, because then I at least know the people in charge are excited about continuing the storyline, instead of passing it off to other people like Joss did. Just because Angel isn't structured like a television season and Joss isn't overseeing it, I think it is a little too soon to call that there is no vision for what the future brings, or that something isn't necessary, especially before we have even read any of the new material. Especially when, so far, we have been given quality work with everything that has been released in the AtF storyline. Joss laid the ground work for Angel, sure, but now the series is evolving into something extremely enjoyable, and is not just a series that ended 4 years ago, thanks to IDW. Amen brother, amen it is sad, but its true, Joss doesn't' have as much invested in Angel as in buffy, and it, Angel, deserves someone who does.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Feb 6, 2009 21:40:23 GMT -5
The difference between how Angel is to Buffy - no unifying vision. Kelley is writing her story separate from Lynch. Lynch is writing it separate from Kelley. They aren't trying to write stories that have shared themes at all, nor are part of a greater arc.
That's the difference between one story and a bunch of different mini-series.
They are different philosophies for the story.
|
|