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Post by Emmie on Feb 10, 2009 23:24:12 GMT -5
if the majority of fans consider it canon and joss doesn't do anything more with the series then it would be safe to believe that this is cannon and even if joss does decide to do something more with it, he will probably continue one with the story if the writers dont do some thing he sees as ir-redeemable The problem with this is you're not going to get a majority of fans who consider the comics canon. They have less than 100,000 readers out of the several million people who were and still are fans of the show. By definition, the majority isn't reading the comics where as I believe they'd watch the show or go to a Buffy movie. The best authority on this is Joss. Anything else is just a slippery slope of relative definitions of canon.
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joony
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Post by joony on Feb 10, 2009 23:49:28 GMT -5
i'm going to confess to being a canon nazi at the start of season 8/AtF, but as both series have progressed i've become less of a militant. My inital reasoning was that Joss was busy with other projects, cabin in the woods and dollhouse..and we're aware many of the actors have no interest in reprising their roles. Now I have no problem with canon being up to the reader's interpretation. I've not read AtF #17 yet (so this point might be rendered invalid) but from the conclusion of #16 i notice that, at a stretch, a fan, if they wanted to, could consider other angel stories like 'old friends' canon (gunn has lost his eye, wes is gone). i hate to play the pessimist but lets face it, james marsters didn't want to play the role five years after ATS ended (a date we are coming up on) david boreanaz is enjoying success on 'Bones', Amy Acker is on 'Dollhouse', by the time everyone would potentially be available the original buffyverse fanbase would be nearing their 30's. I guess the convoluted point i'm trying to make is that we are at a point in the buffyverse where canon doesn't have to matter in the way it has before. the message these characters give us, the journey they go on we can identify with is the more important aspect (this even happens in 'Chosen'...dawn killing a turok-han...WTF...because the message of empowerment means more). In the comics we are gettin excellent stories and wonderful character development. I'll say with pride my favourite angel episode is ATF #15, and if the person i tell says 'its a comic it doesn't count' i wont sweat it, because it means so much to me, that it doesn't have to mean anything to them. x
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 11, 2009 0:53:07 GMT -5
Is Aftermath and everything following it considered canon?
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Post by wenxina on Feb 11, 2009 0:58:35 GMT -5
Officially, no word saying either way, except that Armstrong has stated that it will continue with some stories from the fallout of AtF. Take that any way you will, I guess. To some, that's enough to establish them as canon. To others, it's just a relaunch of the Angel comic franchise, using a canonical event (AtF) as a launching pad.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Feb 11, 2009 1:02:26 GMT -5
Is Aftermath and everything following it considered canon? The only Angel comics that are definitely canon are After the Fall #1 - 17. Everything else is ill-defined and open to interpretation. Which is the whole problem.
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jellymoff
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Post by jellymoff on Feb 11, 2009 1:03:03 GMT -5
I guess I'm still having a problem with people "considering something canon". If Joss doesn't say it's canon, it's not canon. It may as Wexina put it, "use a canonical event as a launching pad", but if Joss does not designate it, then it isn't so.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Feb 11, 2009 1:20:09 GMT -5
I guess I'm still having a problem with people "considering something canon". If Joss doesn't say it's canon, it's not canon. It may as Wexina put it, "use a canonical event as a launching pad", but if Joss does not designate it, then it isn't so. I pretty much agree with this and feel that it's best to have an "official canon", but ultimately, canon, like all fiction, is subjective. I mean, I never counted Terminator 3 as canon, even before Sarah Connor Chronicles came along and backed me up.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 11, 2009 3:24:46 GMT -5
Ha, Paul730 I also don't count Terminator 3 as canon and I think of it like The Sarah Connor Chronicles and T4+... all just different timelines/Universe...
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Feb 11, 2009 7:47:19 GMT -5
Ha, Paul730 I also don't count Terminator 3 as canon and I think of it like The Sarah Connor Chronicles and T4+... all just different timelines/Universe... Well, at the risk of going off-topic, I think T3 and T4 are canon with each other, since Kate Brewster is in both. T4 actually looks quite good though, they're moving the franchise forward instead of recycling old formulas like T3 did. My "personal" Terminator canon consists of T1, T2, and TSCC. I like that universe. But the only definitively canon stories are T1 and T2. Like I said, it's kinda up to the viewer to decide.
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Malsad
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Post by Malsad on Feb 11, 2009 9:00:42 GMT -5
indeed
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 11, 2009 10:34:59 GMT -5
I thought that Joss wasnt involved with exactly what was being written in Aftermath, however he did approve it and gave the writer a place that it had to end up.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 27, 2009 3:57:38 GMT -5
Well, I would like to think of Aftermath as Canon... that is if Cordy comes back for a bit (and if others come back) if not I don't really care because After the Fall had the best ending.
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Whedon Fan
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Post by Whedon Fan on Feb 27, 2009 7:19:34 GMT -5
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 27, 2009 7:32:04 GMT -5
I don't think canon matters much now that the shows are done with. There's nothing out there more important that could contradict it. I think comic are always gonna exist on a second level of importance anyway, no matter who's behind them, and anyone who's going to read them should be in a position themselves to decide which stories they want to acknowledge. I'll never understand the canon thing though. It's so unimportant to me personally. [Aww T3 hate I liked that film. I've seen nothing yet to prove T4 will be any better either. Mcg ftl]
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Feb 27, 2009 10:18:39 GMT -5
I'm starting to take a Star Wars approach to Buffyverse canon. That franchise has what they call "the Holocron" (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon ), which is a hyierach of canon containing 5 levels. Here's my rough translation of the Holocron into Buffyverse terms (it might not be perfect, I'm not a Star Wars fan!): G-canon - Absolute canon, i.e. the two TV shows. T-canon - Comic books confirmed to be canon, like S8, AtF, Fray, Tales, etc. C-canon - Comic books/novels with unknown canonicity but fit into continuity. The Spike comics, Aftermath, Go Ask Malice, etc. S-canon - Comic books/novels which contradict or don't really fit into canon. Most of the old novels/comics would fall into this. N-canon - Totally non-canon. The Buffy movie and pilot, Queen of the Slayers, the old IDW Angel comics. I like the idea of there being various levels of canon. This is just my personal interpretation though, I'm not stating this as fact, so don't get all up in my face. It's also not quite the same as Star Wars either, because George Lucas actually oversees all SW expanded universe to an extent IIRC, whereas Joss doesn't really care. [Aww T3 hate I liked that film. I've seen nothing yet to prove T4 will be any better either. Mcg ftl] T3 was a pointless clone of T2 and a shit stain on an otherwise perfect series. It's an enjoyable blockbuster if you're a casual viewer but frustrating and insulting if you're a big Terminator fan. T4 looks better because it seems to move the series forward instead of recycling the exact same story from the last one.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 27, 2009 10:34:24 GMT -5
The simplest way to express my view of canon is this:
Assume there is a book/comic/whatever called "A" which is about Angel.
If Joss Whedon sits down to write a story about Angel and he wants to have him do a certain thing, would he say to himself, "No, I can't have Angel do this because it contradicts what was said about him in A?"
If the answer is yes, then "A" is canon.
If the answer is no, then it's not.
There are only three ways of finding this out: 1. Joss comes right out and says something is canon or is not; 2. Joss creates or approves a canonical story which directly recognizes it (in which case it becomes canon); 3. Joss creates or approves a canonical story which directly contradicts it (in which case it is definitely not canon).
For example, I consider "Spike: Asylum" to be canonical because there are scenes in the canonical "After the Fall" comic which prove that its events occurred in Angelverse reality. (Spike's previous acquaintance with Betta George; the scene at the Mosaic Wellness Center, etc.)
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Feb 27, 2009 10:48:08 GMT -5
The simplest way to express my view of canon is this: Assume there is a book/comic/whatever called "A" which is about Angel. If Joss Whedon sits down to write a story about Angel and he wants to have him do a certain thing, would he say to himself, "No, I can't have Angel do this because it contradicts what was said about him in A?" If the answer is yes, then "A" is canon. If the answer is no, then it's not. But it's possible that Joss doesn't count Aftermath as canon, but doesn't want to outright contradict it in another series because that would damage IDW's sales. He has said he's keeping Spike and Angel away from Buffy because he doesn't want to tread on IDW's toes. It doesn't mean he thinks their stories are canon, it just means he has good manners. 2. Joss creates or approves a canonical story which directly recognizes it (in which case it becomes canon); For example, I consider "Spike: Asylum" to be canonical because there are scenes in the canonical "After the Fall" comic which prove that its events occurred in Angelverse reality. (Spike's previous acquaintance with Betta George; the scene at the Mosaic Wellness Center, etc.) This isn't a air-tight theory. Yuki Makimura and Anni Sonnenblume appeared in the old non-canon Buffy comic book before appearing in the canon Tales of the Slayers graphic novel. Does their appearance in canon retroactively make their first appearances canon? Can of worms much? I understand what you're saying, and I too consider Asylum more or less canon for the same reasons, but something doesn't become automatically canon because part of it is vaguely referenced in a canon work.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 27, 2009 11:04:30 GMT -5
But it's possible that Joss doesn't count Aftermath as canon, but doesn't want to outright contradict it in another series because that would damage IDW's sales. He has said he's keeping Spike and Angel away from Buffy because he doesn't want to tread on IDW's toes. It doesn't mean he thinks their stories are canon, it just means he has good manners. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he's doing, in fact. I don't know whether it's just a matter of courtesy or whether he made an actual agreement with Fox and IDW not to publicly contradict the canonicity of these comics (knowing that doing so would immediately cut sales by 50%+). So, we may not know whether these comics are canon or not until they're long out of print, if ever. But given that Joss had no involvement with them, I can't justify calling them anything more than "expanded universe" stories until I get evidence otherwise. That's not to say I can't enjoy reading them... just that I don't expect their "reality" to be reflected in any future canonical material. This isn't a air-tight theory. Yuki Makimura and Anni Sonnenblume appeared in the old non-canon Buffy comic book before appearing in the canon Tales of the Slayers graphic novel. Does their appearance in canon retroactively make their first appearances canon? Can of worms much? I think it's possible for characters to appear in both canonical and non-canonical sources... all the main characters have done so, after all. Spike: Asylum is a special case because its actual *events* and established character relationships were referred to as established reality in the AtF comic. The simple fact of Betta George appearing in both Asylum and AtF would not, in and of itself, have made Asylum canon in my mind.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 27, 2009 11:12:02 GMT -5
Officially, no word saying either way, except that Armstrong has stated that it will continue with some stories from the fallout of AtF. Take that any way you will, I guess. To some, that's enough to establish them as canon. To others, it's just a relaunch of the Angel comic franchise, using a canonical event (AtF) as a launching pad. Yet this no more makes it canon then the old Angel comics using the show as a launching pad. I guess I'm still having a problem with people "considering something canon". If Joss doesn't say it's canon, it's not canon. It may as Wexina put it, "use a canonical event as a launching pad", but if Joss does not designate it, then it isn't so. Agreed. I thought that Joss wasnt involved with exactly what was being written in Aftermath, however he did approve it and gave the writer a place that it had to end up. That hasn't been confirmed. Armstrong has said in interviews that she looks forward to working with Joss someday - which means that he didn't contribute to the story of Aftermath. It was approved by Joss - which may mean he read it or may mean his offices read it. Unconfirmed. Which to me means it hasn't happened. It's in IDW's best interests to clearly establish what Joss' involvement is if he does have a hand in the story - Joss = canon = better sales from all his Whedonite fans. For example, I consider "Spike: Asylum" to be canonical because there are scenes in the canonical "After the Fall" comic which prove that its events occurred in Angelverse reality. (Spike's previous acquaintance with Betta George; the scene at the Mosaic Wellness Center, etc.) I absolutely do not view Spike: Asylum as canon. As per your own rules, it's only Joss who makes it canon by referencing it. That was Lynch who included the lines and characters from his own previous works. And frankly, I think Lynch would have been better served developing Lorne, Wes or Nina's character arcs than bringing in Betta George (who got more to do than the true AtS characters that were in NFA). Joss said he liked Lynch's work on Asylum and Shadow Puppets, so I view it as equivalent to a scene that hit the editing room floor from the TV show. Kinda like Amy Acker's audition for Fred where Gunn and Wes are acting all Shakespearian and in love with her. It compliments canon, but it is not canon. Regarding Aftermath and the IDW stories in general, one of the key characteristics of BUFFY/ANGEL canon to me is the long-term goal. At IDW, it feels like stories are being thrown together, main characters are weaving in and out, the writers of the series aren't working closely together. There is no unified long-term vision. Season 8 has Joss holding it all together and working with his writers. This is not true for IDW's Angel titles and I find it problematic and a bit upsetting. This lacks the collaborative dynamic of the writer's room back for the TV shows where ideas were tossed back and forth. With one writer, their misconceptions about themes and characterization can sink the story because they have a single blind spot or aren't aware of certain subtleties of the story. This weakens it for me (majority of reviews I've read says Kate seems like a pod-person in Aftermath, closer to a twin sister who looks like Kate but certainly doesn't act like her). IDW seems to be taking the stance that canon doesn't matter. And I think they're doing this because they don't have the authority to establish canon here. So they diminish canon in order to maintain the importance of the comics they're producing (AtF is the only canon comic established). This doesn't mean the comics aren't good stories. I just don't view anything besides AtF as canon. Aftermath is currently in limbo for me waiting for authority to confirm it. It may forever stay in limbo - still doesn't make it canon imo.
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 27, 2009 11:22:00 GMT -5
I'm starting to take a Star Wars approach to Buffyverse canon. That franchise has what they call "the Holocron" (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon ), which is a hyierach of canon containing 5 levels. Here's my rough translation of the Holocron into Buffyverse terms (it might not be perfect, I'm not a Star Wars fan!): G-canon - Absolute canon, i.e. the two TV shows. T-canon - Comic books confirmed to be canon, like S8, AtF, Fray, Tales, etc. C-canon - Comic books/novels with unknown canonicity but fit into continuity. The Spike comics, Aftermath, Go Ask Malice, etc. S-canon - Comic books/novels which contradict or don't really fit into canon. Most of the old novels/comics would fall into this. N-canon - Totally non-canon. The Buffy movie and pilot, Queen of the Slayers, the old IDW Angel comics. I like the idea of there being various levels of canon. This is just my personal interpretation though, I'm not stating this as fact, so don't get all up in my face. It's also not quite the same as Star Wars either, because George Lucas actually oversees all SW expanded universe to an extent IIRC, whereas Joss doesn't really care. [Aww T3 hate I liked that film. I've seen nothing yet to prove T4 will be any better either. Mcg ftl] T3 was a pointless clone of T2 and a shit stain on an otherwise perfect series. It's an enjoyable blockbuster if you're a casual viewer but frustrating and insulting if you're a big Terminator fan. T4 looks better because it seems to move the series forward instead of recycling the exact same story from the last one. I think Star Wars style levels of canon are definately becoming useful for this universe, especially with IDW's Angel titles being so vaguely associated. In short, I think you'd have show level, Joss approved/involved comic level, another level for comics that aren't Joss involved that don't contradict the levels above, and finally a level below that has been overwritten by something from the first 2 levels. I'm a big Terminator fan, and like T3 a lot tbh. It did no more damage to the story than T2 did in my opinion.
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