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Post by mattitudev2 on Jun 1, 2008 19:26:00 GMT -5
I love the umbrella, too!!
I would definitely take the umbrella moment and replace it with Dracula rematerializing in Buffy vs. Dracula, getting staked again, then trying to rematerialize once more until Buffy replies "I'm standing right here!"
It was sort of funny and all, it just seemed sort of...cornball.
Also, I guess I'm an idiot according to the person who wrote the article, because I didn't necessarily see snow coming at the end of Amends; I just assumed they kept talking about how hot it was because a lot of us don't experience that at Christmas time and we were seeing something a little bit different instead, watching them experience a dreadfully hot Christmas.
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alycat7
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I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
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Post by alycat7 on Jun 1, 2008 21:02:48 GMT -5
I always hated Riley. The only time I could tolerate him was when he was going through withdrawal in Goodbye Iowa.
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Post by buffysmglover on Jun 1, 2008 21:45:09 GMT -5
I loved the umbrella. And Jonathan's quote still makes me feel mushy. Who wouldn't love to be recognized like that, especially if it seemed the work you did went unnoticed?
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Post by Emmie on Jun 1, 2008 23:08:48 GMT -5
I too loved the umbrella scene and the snow in Amends was sweet. The horse power issue is pretty silly, but they did try to make it obvious the caravan was a p.o.s. (Giles: "Step on what? I've driven tricycles with more power."). I'll agree to Riley and Sam's helicoptor being ridiculous, but it was meant to be as it was showing Riley as the deus ex machina of the episode who arrives and fixes Buffy. Dumpster sex was just wrong, but I take more issue with the fact that Buffy worked there at all. Yes, it made for a neat-o commentary on fast-food (which I've yet to find all that funny), but it also was retarded in terms of a potential source of income for Buffy. Minimum wage back then was $5.15, right? So Buffy working a full 40 hours (I doubt she's pulling overtime with the slayer responsibilities plus Dawn) means she's making less than $200 after taxes. How was she supposed to provide for her and Dawn on $200 a week? The girl turned 21 that season and she's working at a fast-food dive, yeah right. Heck she might have made more money delivering papers while she was patrolling - at least she'd have been multitasking. Some stats say that delivering newspapers can average $9.00/hr. If she needed a job fast, working in a restaurant of the not fast-food variety would have provided better income and also been an easy job to get. And more opportunity for comedy (compare the movie Waiting to Doublemeat Palace). For those who actually liked DP (you know who you are ), did her working there actually make sense to you? If yes, I'd like to hear why because it baffles me.
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artiswar
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Post by artiswar on Jun 2, 2008 0:45:33 GMT -5
I agree with a few of those things up there. Just not about the umbrella or the snow. I really love the umbrella, that scene is really beautiful. But I do agree about the Dumpster sex scene. Talk about yuck. I use to work at a restaurant, and I'd have to say that is about the worst smelling place you could ever choose to be around. Much less have sex by one. I'm not a fan of any Buffy/Spike sex scene, I completely dislike those two together period. I also agree about the "As You Were" episode. So irritating and cheesy. I especially hate how they make it Buffy's fault that he left and that it took him so long to get over it. And now he's married and flaunting it around Buffy. I never saw it being Buffy's fault that he left. Riley was the one who was at fault. He's the one who was letting vampires feed off of him for some sick pleasure, and he was constantly a baby about Buffy not giving him attention when her mom was incredibly sick. How selfish is that? Jeez. In defense of Riley... Buffy told SPIKE about her mom and not her BOYFRIEND. How selfish is that? She couldn't have dropped him a line saying "My mom is sick, i'm staying with her at the hospital for a while, don't wait up"? Buffy was a complete BITCA to Riley. And I know because I've been in the exact same position as him before, and finding out that you, supposedly her significant other are the last to know that your girlfriend's mom was hospitalized, and she had the time to tell someone she loathed and not you, does NOT feel good. And that is just one small aspect of how Buffy messed up Riley.
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Post by Emmie on Jun 2, 2008 2:00:22 GMT -5
I also agree about the "As You Were" episode. So irritating and cheesy. I especially hate how they make it Buffy's fault that he left and that it took him so long to get over it. And now he's married and flaunting it around Buffy. I never saw it being Buffy's fault that he left. Riley was the one who was at fault. He's the one who was letting vampires feed off of him for some sick pleasure, and he was constantly a baby about Buffy not giving him attention when her mom was incredibly sick. How selfish is that? Jeez. In defense of Riley... Buffy told SPIKE about her mom and not her BOYFRIEND. How selfish is that? She couldn't have dropped him a line saying "My mom is sick, i'm staying with her at the hospital for a while, don't wait up"? Buffy was a complete BITCA to Riley. And I know because I've been in the exact same position as him before, and finding out that you, supposedly her significant other are the last to know that your girlfriend's mom was hospitalized, and she had the time to tell someone she loathed and not you, does NOT feel good. And that is just one small aspect of how Buffy messed up Riley. Come on. Spike knew because he was stalking Buffy 24/7 while Riley was busy indulging his inadequacy issues on a kamikaze mission against a vamp nest. Buffy's had bitca moments, but not hunting down Riley so she can lean on him when he's not around - sorry but she was a little busy with the family crisis. We go from Buffy being all worried about Riley in Season 4 through 'Real Me' to her being worried about her mom and sister. Sorry but a big part of this feels like Riley's angst at not being the center of attention. When someone I love is going through a personal crisis like their parent being hospitalized I'm not thinking "Why aren't they paying enough attention to me? Why don't they need me?". I'm busy trying to be there for them in any way, shape or form. If that means just patiently being around while they try to be strong on their own, so be it. That was how Buffy coped, trying to be strong for her family or else she would just break down completely. It's hard having so many different roles to assume that are so diametrically opposed - the hard slayer, the strong daughter and protective sister, the vulnerable and needy girlfriend. The hard truth is that she prioritized these roles: slayer = necessary, daughter/sister = necessary, needy girlfriend = personal but not vital. Riley got the short-end compared to saving the world, protecting her sister from a hellgod and caring for her mother who's health was compromised and eventually died. Her friends weren't complaining about how Buffy wasn't there for them hanging out at the Bronze and partying. Why? Because they understood what she was going through. Riley cared about what Buffy was going through more in terms of how it affected him. That was selfish.
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dane5by5
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Post by dane5by5 on Jun 2, 2008 7:49:45 GMT -5
What a pointless article. It wasn't even a critique.
At this point, the writer of said article needs a vacation. Permanent would be ideal.
I may be in the minority, but I think Bargaining was the best season opener of Buffy through the entire series. Whether it was sand or dust that was thrown on Giles, unless you go up to the screen with a magnifying glass, sand and dust look quite similar. Unless I'm terribly misinformed.
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Rachster
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Post by Rachster on Jun 2, 2008 8:01:47 GMT -5
Its hard to disagree with that article 98% of the things he said were right but.... I LOVED THE UMBRELLA !!! it was so much more sentimental than some shop made expensive trophy and it was really sweet.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jun 2, 2008 8:49:29 GMT -5
The only thing I really agree with in this article is the "dumpster sex" scene. Pretty much makes me cringe every time.
The rest are pretty ok with me. The Prom and Amends are two of my all-time fave episodes, I thought the fight scene between Buffy and the knights of Byzantium was bad-ass, and call me crazy, but I actually kind of liked when Riley returned in S6. *gasp* Yes, I know it is hard to fathom, especially considering that I lost much respect for his charcter through out S5. But I really feel that Riley coming back in As You Were was a way of redeeming the character. Plus, it gave closure to the Buffy/Riley relationship, which I feel that Buffy needed.
All and all, he was certainly no Angel or Spike, but I really don't think "Captain Cardboard" was all that bad. I think maybe he deserves just a little more credit than he gets.
Sure, he went over to the dark side, but if you really think about it, his actions, however inappropriate, can be understood. Buffy always pushed him away and kept him at a distance, and this started long before her mother got ill. So, I guess Riley just wanted a taste of the dark side that Buffy seemed so Drawn to. Maybe he thought it would help him understand her better? I dunno...I am in no way making excuses for Riley's deplorable actions, however.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 2, 2008 10:45:41 GMT -5
For those who actually liked DP (you know who you are ), did her working there actually make sense to you? If yes, I'd like to hear why because it baffles me. Well, I don't dislike DP. I kinda thought that working at a fast food-joint was another example of how low Buffy was feeling, since in our cultures, working with fast food is one of the most desperate jobs you can have. True, the money can't be enough for Dawn, Buffy and the house, but I get the symbolic meaning of DP. The dumpster-sex just clearifies that Buffy is at a very low point of her life.
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Post by dragonweaver on Jun 2, 2008 11:40:46 GMT -5
For me even the most ridiculous moments on Buffy had at least something moving, interesting, funny or cool and therefore were worth sitting through. So I have to pretty much disagree with the whole article.
Here's my reasoning for disagreeing:
1. THANKS FOR SAVING US! HERE'S AN UMBRELLA. (The Prom - Episode 3x20)
That "cheap" umbrella was in my opinion a sentimental & well thought out award, and that particular scene became the standout moment for the whole episode. Really good gifts are ones that don't have to cost a fortune, what makes them good is how meaningful or symbolic they are. The umbrella was just an award, the speech Jonathan gave with it and the acknowledgement of Buffy's role in keep everyone safe was the true gift and one that left me quite misty.
2. DUMPSTER SEX (Doublemeat Palace - Episode 6x12)
I will admit that the dumpster sex scene was disgusting, embarrassing to watch and not something I'd want to replay over & over, BUT I think that was the point. The point was to show just how far Buffy had fallen and how she could be surrounded by filth and be in the most degrading of situations and just not care. Season 6 wasn't about Buffy coming back from the dead, it was her coming back alive and the hard, long road to recovering who she used to be. Joss said that you can't just bring someone back from the dead and not have consequences. Buffy's struggle, and all the sex and humiliation were a huge part of that.
3. HORSE POWER! (Spiral - Episode 5x20)
Okay the Knights and their silly costumes were definitely ridiculous, but the comedy and the action that ensued from their attack on the RV was pretty darn entertaining. Yes the Winnebago was going extremely slow and the horses probably weren't going at full gallop, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief and just enjoy Buffy swinging that sword around and sending those annoying knights flying through the air.
4. RILEY AND SAM'S WILD RIDE (As You Were - Episode 6x15)
Didn't give a flying fig about Sam and pretty much forgot her once she left, but it was nice to see Riley again and to see what he had been up to since leaving town. I won't get into the debate of who was at fault for the Buffy/Riley split, but the relationship did need some closure and this episode provided that. As for the end with the super duper, demon fighting couple being airlifted out of Sunnydale...well I don't understand what the problem is? In a town with vampires, trolls that destroy bars, giant snakes that roam through the city at night or attack a high school graduation, and dragons who occasionally do a fly by and this guy has a problem with a helicopter lifting up two humans in the middle of the night. Now that is ridiculous.
5. IT'S A CHRISTMAS MIRACLE! (Amends 3x10)
One of the best Buffy moments ever and fake snow aside it wasn't ridiculous. Perhaps it was a religious moment; perhaps Joss was trying to say that there is a higher power (whether it's God or The Powers that Be). But that moment was about Angel needing a miracle, needing a sign that his continued existence was not just about evil using him, needing to know that he could do good things. The snow was that sign and it was a beautiful moment, whether you saw it coming or not.
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artiswar
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Post by artiswar on Jun 2, 2008 15:09:24 GMT -5
To Emmie:
I don't see how going after the nest was a kamikaze mission. Riley took down every vamp in the nest with a single grenade if I remember correctly, so how was it a kamikaze mission? Riley was rightfully playing the boyfriend role, 'nobody hurts my girlfriend', and I don't see anything wrong with that.
Riley wasn't mad at Buffy because he wanted to be the center of attention. He just didn't want to get attention only when it was convenient for Buffy. As I said, all she needed to do was leave a freaking message on his answering machine, summing up what happened in 3 sentences, I don't care if you're a Slayer and the world is resting on your shoulders, you can always find the time to make a 30 second phone call. When Buffy's mom got sick, Riley didn't even cross Buffy's mind, it didn't even occur to her that he might be worried sick had he found out from somebody else what had happened (which turned out to be the case) . When you're somebody's significant other, I don't think it's an exageration to say that you'd expect to be the first or one of the first to know when your lover is in a crisis. The slap in the face here is that Riley, a man who fell hard for Buffy, was relegated to little more than a booty call; the only time you see Buffy with Riley it seems, is when she needs some lovin'. And that is very sad. Riley is always trying to be more involved in Buffy's life like a lover should be, and when is Buffy letting Riley in? Aside from when they're having sex that is? Not very often... Now the other side of this coin is that Riley is man with a certain amount of ego, which is already bothering him from the fundamental fact that the girl he loves can break him with her pinky. Riley knows Angel wasn't a civilian like he is, and he wants to live up to his standards. He knows Angel was always the center of Buffy's world, and that she used to always cry over him and get emotional, something she never does for Riley (except that one time when she almost teared up when he was about to die, but those were more tears of anger...). So Riley essentially feels like a second-rate fill in for Angel, which, coincidentally, is how most Buffy fans feel about him. No wonder he goes out with sl*t-vamps and gets sucked on.
To dragonweaver:
I was waiting for a moment when I'd have enough time to reply to the 5 ridiculous moments which I disagree with, but you've pretty much summed up my thoughts to a T.
-edit-
And to the people who hate Riley for 'flaunting' his wife to Buffy in As We Were, let's not forget the fact that Riley doesn't bat an eyelid at the fact that Buffy is working at a degrading job, is sleeping with Spike, and has fallen very far from the larger-than-life-shampoo-commercial-hair-heroine she had been in the past. He tells her "None of that touches you Buffy". It takes major strength of character and faith in others to be able to overlook some majorly sh*tty choices like those, and not let it hurt your standards of that person. That my friends is knowing that it's what's on the inside that counts. If only there were more Riley's in the world.
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alycat7
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Post by alycat7 on Jun 2, 2008 15:36:37 GMT -5
Riley is a good human being, but he just didn't fit with Buffy. Im sure that even if her mother wasn't sick at the time, Buffy would have found another reason to ignore him.
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artiswar
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Post by artiswar on Jun 2, 2008 15:42:19 GMT -5
The entire Buffy/Riley relationship from the start of season 5 to Into The Woods made me hate Buffy's character. If she didn't want to be with him she should have just cut him loose not lead him on, he was clearly in love with her.
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alycat7
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Post by alycat7 on Jun 2, 2008 19:50:54 GMT -5
She liked him at first, but it didn't go any further.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jun 4, 2008 8:31:50 GMT -5
hellmouthcentral.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=136&Itemid=295. IT'S A CHRISTMAS MIRACLE! (Amends 3x10) Does that mean Joss Whedon believes in a God? Because all signs before and after this moment show that he doesn't seem to --- but this moment stands out as the only one that makes it seem like he does. I'm ultra-confused. How else do you explain it? Scientifically, I'm pretty sure weather can't change that dramatically in that amount of time. There wasn't any magic involved....I guess MAYBE the "Powers that Be" could've had a hand in it....but really, who are "The Powers That Be, hmmmm? Put your noodle around that one. God, Powers That Be, freak occurance or not.....it was a pretty ridiculous moment. My feeling has always been that although Joss publicly acknowledges that he is an atheist, his shows are still rife with religious themes and content. I recall him making the statement once, that although he is an atheist and does not believe himself, he is absolutely fascinated by the concept of devotion. Something like that anyway. As far as the episode goes, it is one of my faves of the series as a whole. I think the snow at the end is the PTB's way of giving Angel another chance and putting him on his path to redemption. They knew that he wasn't done and must continue on help others. Although, I guess some just cannot appreciate the symbolism of the moment.
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