Cordelia on Angel: What happened?

[Joe]

When you think about it. Cordelia for the majority of the series of Angel is the 2nd lead next to Angel himself. She is also the female lead of the show (equalvilant to Xander or something). So anyway what I'm trying to say is that Cordelia was really important for the first 3 seasons of Angel. She got possessed in season 4, which screwed up her character and then didn't appear in season 5 except for one episode. I think that Cordelia shouldn't of turned in evil in season 4, and then she shouldn't of left the series afterword. (Thats like Xander turning evil in season 5 then leaving the series). I was wondering why this happened, was it in the plan of the series, was she planned to leave before the series ended? I know Charisma was pregnant but was that the only reason that she left the show? It kinda makes me mad cause she's a great character and she left.

[jason321]

Cordy was always intended to be the big bad of S4 even before the writers found out she was pregnant. They originally wanted the final fight of the season to be between her and Angel but her pregnancy made that impossible. I think she would have been killed in that scenario, so im actually glad she got pregnant and got the coma treatment instead. That way at least we got a proper goodbye episode to the real Cordy in S5, instead of her getting offed in some second-rate "Becoming" wannabe. But yeah, she should never have gone evil in the first place. Joss is great with ideas for individual episodes, but he just got worse and worse when it came to season long arcs.

Oh, and Charisma never wanted off the show. She was fired. Lots of theories and rumors about what went down between her, Mutant Enemy, and the network, but I tend to believe that she had to be cut due to them having less budget and having to hire Marsters(expensive) in order to get renewed.

[henzINNIT]

Cordelia wasn't really the Xander of Angel.... she was the ("Buffy") Angel of Angel.. In my opinion.

I always forget that Wesley and Gunn were longer running characters than her.

[jason321]

I'd actually call Cordy the Willow (best friend and confidante), Xander (grounding influence), and Giles (guiding hand. shared w/ Lorne) of Angel. He never really did have any close friendships with anyone else except for his dysfunctional love/hate things w/ Wesley, Conner and Spike.

[Wyndam]

I really have no idea what went down with Charisma, as she has always seemed like a very nice, even shy person.

I would definitely classify Cordy and Wesley as the Willow and Xander of the show. They were Angel's best friends, and more or less the only true friends he ever had. I would also consider Fred, Lorne and Gunn as Angel's friends, because Angel did care for them tremendously, but if Angel ever had "best friends" then that title would go to Cordy and Wesley. I mean even after what Wesley did in Season 3, it was Angel that came back to Wesley first and forgave him.

[Emmie]

Apr 26, 2008 17:15:51 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

I really have no idea what went down with Charisma, as she has always seemed like a very nice, even shy person.

I agree, she's always seemed very sweet and kinda shy. She's doesn't seem that difficult to me. I thought her not informing the writers of her pregnancy right away is what messed up her run on the show. Greenwalt seemed very fond of her at Paley when he said 'Angel' never could have happened without her. It's nice that she and David Boreanaz are still friends too.

Apr 26, 2008 17:15:51 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

I mean even after what Wesley did in Season 3, it was Angel that came back to Wesley first and forgave him.

When did Angel first forgive him? What moment do you see it as? (just wondering) It's been awhile since I've watched Angel s3 and s4. I always thought that Wesley helping Angel in 'Deep Down' was a sign of him wanting to be back in.

[Wyndam]

Apr 26, 2008 17:40:39 GMT -5 Emmie said:

When did Angel first forgive him? What moment do you see it as? (just wondering) It's been awhile since I've watched Angel s3 and s4. I always thought that Wesley helping Angel in 'Deep Down' was a sign of him wanting to be back in.

In "Ground State" Angel comes to Wesley to ask for his help finding Cordelia. He thanks Wesley for saving him, and more or less recants his promise never to forgive Wes for taking Connor. Now of course, that scene can be taken two ways. The first being that Angel just wanted to butter Wesley up into helping him, or that Angel was genuine, which is that way I like to interpret it. The other way just doesn't seem like something Angel would do.

Wesley knows that Angel came for information on Cordy, which he gives him and leaves.

In "Deep Down" Wesley saves Angel, not because he wants forgiveness, but because he believes Angel is serving a purpose and needed to be found, and he basically tells Justine just that.

If Wesley wanted to fall back in with the gang, then he would have when Angel gave him the opening in "Ground State" to do so, but Wesley was still hurt that they all abandoned him and would have none of it.

So that's the basis for what I said. It just seemed as if Angel was always the one taking the steps toward rebuilding what they once had, whereas it took Wesley nearly a year to accept being "back on the team" in "Home."

[artiswar]

I believe strongly that Angel did forgive Wes genuinely in Ground State. In Forgiving, Angel swore he'd never forgive him because he believed he had lost Connor forever, and there was no coming back from that. But obviously Connor's return, however dysfunctional, certainly changed the potential for forgiveness. Angel's relief at just having his son back trounces whatever disgust he may have been harboring for Wes. Also, the knowledge that his son was gone forever prevented Angel from accepting the fact that Wes acted upon his best judgement, but Connor's return eased his mind enough to accept that fact finally. The real problem at this point wasn't if Angel was ready to forgive Wes, but if Wes was ready to forgive Angel, and the gang for they're despicable treatment of him.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Apr 26, 2008 17:40:39 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Apr 26, 2008 17:15:51 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

I really have no idea what went down with Charisma, as she has always seemed like a very nice, even shy person.

I agree, she's always seemed very sweet and kinda shy. She's doesn't seem that difficult to me. I thought her not informing the writers of her pregnancy right away is what messed up her run on the show.

That's what I've always heard, as well. That they had this whole arc planned where she was going to be the Big Bad of the season, including a big fight with Angel at the end of the year (which would've filmed around April), and she shows up for the first day of shooting after the summer hiatus and tells them, "Oh, by the way, I'm pregnant, and due in March." It threw all their plans for the season into total upheaval, and the producers were not happy about it. I've heard it enough times over the years that I tend to believe it.

Something I've heard less often, so don't know how true it is, is that this, coupled with her basically being fired over it at the end of the season, caused a not-small rift between her and Joss, and he supposedly had no plans to bring her back at any time during S5, and that it was David Fury who actually pushed for it and persuaded Joss to do it (Fury, not Joss, wrote and directed "You're Welcome"). Like I said, don't know how much truth there is in any of that, but the one thing that I always found a little suspicious was how quickly Cordy's death was swept under the rug in the following episodes--not only were her friends never shown mourning her, but I don't think she was even mentioned again until the next-to-last episode. Contrast that with how Fred's death was dealt with, and how much screentime it got.

But the good news is, if there ever was a rift between them, it's apparently a thing of the past. From what I've heard the two of them (along with some of the other cast members) do a special feature together on the bonus disc included in the "Chosen Collection" of "Buffy" DVDs, and of course they were both at the Paley thing recently, so

[Smashed]

You're Welcome was actually written for Buffy.
So, think like this: If Sarah was available, then we may never have gotten a Cordy goodbye!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27re_Welcome_%28Angel_episode%29

[JBrow]

I thought I read somewhere that Charisma being let go from the show for the final season was partly due to budget cuts on the show .. something to the affect of they wanted James for Angel after Buffy finished and they didn't have the budget to afford Charisma, David AND James so Charisma was let go.

I met Charisma at a convention last summer and she was very nice ... I'd say maybe a little awkward being in that type of situation, but she was still good to the fans. In fact, she was only scheduled to do one day and as a result there were a lot of people there to meet her. The organizers really rushed everyone through like a cattle herd and you barely got a chance to look at her as you were getting your item signed, let along talk to her. A lot of people were upset. Anyways, the next day she came back (I heard rumors from people that volunteers at the show, etc, it was at her request) and it was 100x better, more relaxed, you got to actually talk to her a bit and get photos.

[jason321]

Apr 26, 2008 22:39:58 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Something I've heard less often, so don't know how true it is, is that this, coupled with her basically being fired over it at the end of the season, caused a not-small rift between her and Joss, and he supposedly had no plans to bring her back at any time during S5, and that it was David Fury who actually pushed for it and persuaded Joss to do it (Fury, not Joss, wrote and directed "You're Welcome").

Joss had said in an interview at the time that he intended to have Carpenter back in some recurring role to wrap up her story. He said the only way it wouldn't happen is if she were to refuse to come back. So while I think he might have been pissed at her, I don't think he'd be petty enough to let it stand in the way of wrapping up a major character's arc. And he didn't write "You're Welcome," but he did write the final scene. David Fury said it was really important to him.

[Joe]

Apr 27, 2008 18:09:11 GMT -5 jason321 said:

Apr 26, 2008 22:39:58 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Something I've heard less often, so don't know how true it is, is that this, coupled with her basically being fired over it at the end of the season, caused a not-small rift between her and Joss, and he supposedly had no plans to bring her back at any time during S5, and that it was David Fury who actually pushed for it and persuaded Joss to do it (Fury, not Joss, wrote and directed "You're Welcome").

Joss had said in an interview at the time that he intended to have Carpenter back in some recurring role to wrap up her story. He said the only way it wouldn't happen is if she were to refuse to come back. So while I think he might have been pissed at her, I don't think he'd be petty enough to let it stand in the way of wrapping up a major character's arc. And he didn't write "You're Welcome," but he did write the final scene. David Fury said it was really important to him.

Too bad Cordelia didn't have like 6 episodes in season 5, instead of the one. That would of been sweet. She could have been there at Fred's death and stuff. ....and then die. But that still would of been better!

[Emmie]

Apr 27, 2008 12:05:27 GMT -5 Smashed said:

You're Welcome was actually written for Buffy.
So, think like this: If Sarah was available, then we may never have gotten a Cordy goodbye!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27re_Welcome_%28Angel_episode%29

I've always wondered what 'You're Welcome' would have been like if SMG had been in it as originally planned.

[jason321]

Apr 27, 2008 20:56:24 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I've always wondered what 'You're Welcome' would have been like if SMG had been in it as originally planned.

Probably would have rung false as real character drama, while ringing true as a desperate grab for ratings. Lets face it, Buffy had been completely irrelevant to Angel (character and show) for 3 years at this point, so the idea of her getting him back on track is pretty lame. Cordy makes sense because when you think about it, that guy's life had been complete hell since she became possessed. No happiness whatsoever apart from Shamen or Jasmine-induced whammy.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Apr 27, 2008 12:05:27 GMT -5 Smashed said:

You're Welcome was actually written for Buffy.
So, think like this: If Sarah was available, then we may never have gotten a Cordy goodbye!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27re_Welcome_%28Angel_episode%29

I don't think wikipedia's description of Buffy being "originally scripted" is quite accurate--that gives the impression that they wrote the whole episode, only to later find out Sarah was unavailable. I think they had already learned that lesson with Amber Benson in "Conversations with Dead People", and doubt they'd make the same mistake twice. The way I remember hearing it, they wanted something special for the 100th episode, and originally wanted Buffy to return, but Sarah couldn't do it, and David Fury thought Cordelia would make a great Plan B.

[hitnrun017]

From what I've read, David wanted Sarah to be in Soul Purpose, the episode he directed, but she couldn't because her aunt had died. They also wanted her to appear on the 100th episode but she couldn't because of The Grudge. AND THEN Sarah said she was open to doing the final episode, but Joss turned her down because he wanted the finale to be about Angel, not Buffy returning.

Don't know if any of it is true though.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Apr 28, 2008 0:27:56 GMT -5 hitnrun017 said:

From what I've read, David wanted Sarah to be in Soul Purpose, the episode he directed, but she couldn't because her aunt had died. They also wanted her to appear on the 100th episode but she couldn't because of The Grudge. AND THEN Sarah said she was open to doing the final episode, but Joss turned her down because he wanted the finale to be about Angel, not Buffy returning.

Don't know if any of it is true though.

They did want Buffy to be in the next-to-last episode, tho, to confront Angel and Spike over the whole Rome thing, but Sarah was still in Japan finishing up "The Grudge". She would've been back in time to film the final ep, but not the one before that. I know that I've heard (it may even be in one of the S5 DVD commentaries; I don't remember) that they even briefly toyed with the idea of reversing the order of filming for the final two eps, and filming #21 last so that Sarah could appear, but the work on the script for #22 wasn't far enough along to make that possible.

If it had been, tho, and she'd come to LA from Rome--or if Michelle T.'s schedule had been free and she'd been able to appear in "The Girl in Question" as they'd originally wanted (instead of Andrew)--just think how different S8 would've been.

I'd never heard that about "Soul Purpose" before. Interesting...

[Emmie]

Apr 27, 2008 23:26:45 GMT -5 jason321 said:

Apr 27, 2008 20:56:24 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I've always wondered what 'You're Welcome' would have been like if SMG had been in it as originally planned.

Probably would have rung false as real character drama, while ringing true as a desperate grab for ratings. Lets face it, Buffy had been completely irrelevant to Angel (character and show) for 3 years at this point, so the idea of her getting him back on track is pretty lame. Cordy makes sense because when you think about it, that guy's life had been complete hell since she became possessed. No happiness whatsoever apart from Shamen or Jasmine-induced whammy.

I don't think you can dismiss Buffy's influence on Angel as irrelevant. There are people who have been really important in my life who have drifted away, but when we hang out again after a long time has passed there's still this intense connection. I subscribe to the deep B/A connection, no matter the time that has passed. She's the reason he became 'somebody' - his rebirth really - and you don't forget someone who's shaped your life in ways dramatic and all-encompassing.

[Emmie]

Apr 28, 2008 0:57:03 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

If it had been, tho, and she'd come to LA from Rome--or if Michelle T.'s schedule had been free and she'd been able to appear in "The Girl in Question" as they'd originally wanted (instead of Andrew)--just think how different S8 would've been.

That's one retcon I'm really happy about. It never made sense to me that Buffy was partying it up in Rome after Chosen. While I want Buffy to 'find the fun' again, it felt too OOC for her to throw away her responsibilities to play around with the Immortal. She's been with two guys before from that gray area, but only after she'd basically recruited Spike and Angel to her side. With the Immortal it felt like he was removed from the Slayer mission and I don't see her compromising for a lil fun. Her being the Slayer General just feels right.

I hope we see what's going on with the Buffy decoy in Rome. I had this idea that she was undercover to get close to the Immortal to discover his weakness. They talked about him as being above the whole good vs. evil battle, but that basically means he's only out there for himself. What if what makes him immortal harms innocent people? I hope the writers don't leave this story thread in the dust.