kimtaro
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Post by kimtaro on Mar 14, 2009 1:36:28 GMT -5
I'm watching Waiting In The Wings ... and first off, I am not a fan of Cangel (Cordelia/Angel) ... I am a firm hater. But that's besides the point. Lorne brings up that Cordelia is a "champion" and that she and Angel have "kyrumption." Ugh. Where does this leave Buffy? IMO, Cordelia being a champion downplays who Buffy is and what she has done. Also, does this mean Buffy and Angel didn't have this "kyrumption" between champions? And that's what really grinds my gears.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 14, 2009 4:08:12 GMT -5
Nowhere land Possibly not. But that's just me, as a Cangel fan. I'm not quite sure about the whole 'Cordy is a champion' part, but I think she does her part, helping the helpless and she may not be a champion, but she's just as good as one as Angel, Buffy and Spike How?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 14, 2009 7:06:26 GMT -5
This is how I define the word champion; It's a synonym for warrior, someone who fights for a purpose. It's doesn't always include violence, but you have to struggle for a purpose, wheter it be money, pride or a higher cause (evil/good/yourself).
Just because Lorne (who've never meet Buffy and can't compare any kind of kurymption) think Cordy and Angel has it doesn't say anything about the bangel-relationship.
And Cordy being a champion (which is a pretty lose term) doesn't say anything about Buffy. They're both people who fight on the side of good. They're warriors. Both could be called champions(unless you have different definition than the word than me).
Besides, I never got exactly what kyrupmtion meant. It sounded like it meant "Two warriors saying 'Hi' when they meet. They feel a connection. The end.".
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kimtaro
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Post by kimtaro on Mar 14, 2009 12:54:02 GMT -5
This is how I define the word champion; It's a synonym for warrior, someone who fights for a purpose. It's doesn't always include violence, but you have to struggle for a purpose, wheter it be money, pride or a higher cause (evil/good/yourself). Just because Lorne (who've never meet Buffy and can't compare any kind of kurymption) think Cordy and Angel has it doesn't say anything about the bangel-relationship. And Cordy being a champion (which is a pretty lose term) doesn't say anything about Buffy. They're both people who fight on the side of good. They're warriors. Both could be called champions(unless you have different definition than the word than me). Besides, I never got exactly what kyrupmtion meant. It sounded like it meant "Two warriors saying 'Hi' when they meet. They feel a connection. The end.". IMO, the "kyrumption" is a true love sorta deal between champions. And as an avid Bangel lover, I feel that this whole Cangel ordeal on Angel was -barf- It's just one of those things, ya know? I just hope they do some sort of B:S8/Ats crossover soon.
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kimtaro
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Post by kimtaro on Mar 14, 2009 12:55:43 GMT -5
Nowhere land Possibly not. But that's just me, as a Cangel fan. I'm not quite sure about the whole 'Cordy is a champion' part, but I think she does her part, helping the helpless and she may not be a champion, but she's just as good as one as Angel, Buffy and Spike How? Firstly a fan of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer series, I put their characters first and foremost. I just feel that when I am watching Angel, the Sunnydale gang is sadly downplayed. My heart just broke when Angel left -motions to glass jar filled with heart shards-
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Post by dragonweaver on Mar 14, 2009 16:02:06 GMT -5
I don't think Lorne's statement or the Angel/Cordy relationship has anything to do with Buffy. It wasn't about downplaying Buffy's role in Angel's life, it was about moving Angel forward.
The way I see it, Cordy was a champion. Yes she had her superficial qualities, but at the end of the day she stood by Angel, she did the right thing and fought to make the world a better place. What does that mean for Buffy? Absolutely nothing. I don't see how Cordy being seen as a heroine makes Buffy any less heroic.
As for the "kyrumption" line, Lorne was implying that since Angel & Cordy are both good hearted demon fighters that perhaps they would be a good match. It's not like either one of them had many dating options considering their line of work. Again, what does this mean for Buffy? Absolutely nothing. Just cause Lorne thought Angel & Cordy had "kyrumption" doesn't mean Angel & Buffy didn't have the same thing.
To sum up their are lots of heros & champions in the Buffyverse and they are each unique and contribute different things.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 14, 2009 18:15:17 GMT -5
I don't think Lorne's statement or the Angel/Cordy relationship has anything to do with Buffy. It wasn't about downplaying Buffy's role in Angel's life, it was about moving Angel forward. The way I see it, Cordy was a champion. Yes she had her superficial qualities, but at the end of the day she stood by Angel, she did the right thing and fought to make the world a better place. What does that mean for Buffy? Absolutely nothing. I don't see how Cordy being seen as a heroine makes Buffy any less heroic. As for the "kyrumption" line, Lorne was implying that since Angel & Cordy are both good hearted demon fighters that perhaps they would be a good match. It's not like either one of them had many dating options considering their line of work. Again, what does this mean for Buffy? Absolutely nothing. Just cause Lorne thought Angel & Cordy had "kyrumption" doesn't mean Angel & Buffy didn't have the same thing. To sum up their are lots of heros & champions in the Buffyverse and they are each unique and contribute different things. Karma
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Mar 14, 2009 19:40:25 GMT -5
Cordelia being a Champion in no way undermines Buffy as a character. Buffy herself admits that Cordelia and her had similar backgrounds and personalities, why can't Cordelia grow up and become a hero like Buffy did?
Besides, I think all of the Scoobies and Team Angel are Champions anyway. That word is usually only applied to main characters like Angel and Spike, but as far as I'm concerned, Xander and Lorne are Champions as well. They're important figures in the fight against evil, how can they not be Champions?
As for Buffy and the Scoobies in Angel... what do you expect? For Angel to still be pining after Buffy three seasons into his own show? The series and the characters had to move forward. Buffy had already made her way through Riley and Spike by that point... Angel isn't allowed to have a relationship? I get that you're a Bangel fan but you can't expect the franchise to just stop for the sake of your favourite 'ship.
Personally, I think Buffy and Angel's relationship with her was serviced pretty well on Angel. She had a recurring role in S1, we saw Angel's reaction to her death in S3, Angel cried out her name when he lost his soul in "Long Day's Journey", and their relationship was poked fun at in "The Girl in Question". And that's not even taking Angel's appearances in Buffy into consideration. It wasn't like the writers just sweeped their relationship under the carpet.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 15, 2009 6:33:23 GMT -5
IMO, the "kyrumption" is a true love sorta deal between champions. And as an avid Bangel lover, I feel that this whole Cangel ordeal on Angel was -barf- True love? Or just a connection? I guess it's how you read the dialouge. FRED: Kye-rumption. It's the one nice word I remember from the Pylean hell dimension.
ANGEL: What's it mean?
FRED: It's when two great heroes meet on the field of battle and recognize their mutual fate. It's also a kind of grog made out of the ox dung but that's archaic.
ANGEL: Oh, ah, that's interesting.
FRED: When I see you and Cordelia sparring Kye-rumption always comes to mind.
ANGEL: Me and Cordelia.
*****
LORNE: Who wouldn't? With that sweet Irish lullaby you crooned. Just a hair flat on the bridge, but more to the point... Cordelia?
ANGEL: What about her?
LORNE: I read you while you were singing, you big corn muffin, and uh, can't say as I blame. I mean, what a woman she's become.
ANGEL: You're not supposed to be reading me. Anyway, you read me wrong.
LORNE: Sorry, strudel. It's not just when you're singing. We got a little term back in Pylea. Kyrumption?
ANGEL: I know it.
LORNE: Okay. When two great heroes come together...
ANGEL: There will be no coming together, okay? Everything we've been through together and all anybody wants to talk about is...
LORNE: Can't fight Kyrumption, cinnamon buns. It's fate. It's the stars. Kyrumption is...
ANGEL: Stop saying that. (petulant) And stop calling me pastries.
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Secret Scoobie
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Post by Secret Scoobie on Apr 3, 2009 9:31:42 GMT -5
Cordelia being a Champion in no way undermines Buffy as a character. Buffy herself admits that Cordelia and her had similar backgrounds and personalities, why can't Cordelia grow up and become a hero like Buffy did? Besides, I think all of the Scoobies and Team Angel are Champions anyway. That word is usually only applied to main characters like Angel and Spike, but as far as I'm concerned, Xander and Lorne are Champions as well. They're important figures in the fight against evil, how can they not be Champions? As for Buffy and the Scoobies in Angel... what do you expect? For Angel to still be pining after Buffy three seasons into his own show? The series and the characters had to move forward. Buffy had already made her way through Riley and Spike by that point... Angel isn't allowed to have a relationship? I get that you're a Bangel fan but you can't expect the franchise to just stop for the sake of your favourite 'ship. Personally, I think Buffy and Angel's relationship with her was serviced pretty well on Angel. She had a recurring role in S1, we saw Angel's reaction to her death in S3, Angel cried out her name when he lost his soul in "Long Day's Journey", and their relationship was poked fun at in "The Girl in Question". And that's not even taking Angel's appearances in Buffy into consideration. It wasn't like the writers just sweeped their relationship under the carpet. I'm a bangel fan but I totally agree. And it had nothing to do with Buffy, as it shouldn't. Bangel isn't undermined by any of the other ships on the show. And that is re-enforced in Chosen when Angel and Buffy have their cookie-convo! They both need to have LIVES and love, and experience more. Just because they found something in each other (and other things in other people) doesn't mean there is nothing else out there for them. Life(afterlife) doesn't stop for love. It wasn't an insult to Buffy because it wasn't about Buffy.
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 3, 2009 12:36:31 GMT -5
Hmm... this definition of kyrumption really reminds me of Greek champions and their "relations". Like Achilles and his "cousin".
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 9, 2009 15:11:41 GMT -5
Im fairly certain that it doesnt tarnish the image of Buffy and Angel, or for that fact, have ANYTHING to do with Buffy and Angel. Cordelia and Angel had a thing, they felt deeply for eachother, maybe were in love, but it has been stated that the greatest love was between Buffy and Angel. It was true and the strongest, however that doesnt mean that the fact that Buffy and Angel were forced to go their seperate ways and both found love afterwards means that they are not allowed to have other relationships. One day they will end up together. One day.
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deathisyourgift
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Post by deathisyourgift on Apr 9, 2009 15:23:02 GMT -5
I appreciate Fred's definition of Kyrumption the most. A recognition of another warrior on the field of battle, which I think fits with Angel and Cordy's relationship since they very often fight side-by-side. Does this mean they are in love? Maybe, is it true love? No. I think that Cordy and Angel went through a lot together, and they both changed because of those experiences (Cordy the most lol), perhaps they connected in a way that cause them to become so attracted to one another. While I do not really agree with the Cordy/Angel relationship, I DO agree with the idea that Angel should have someone to love, which is why I looooooove Nina Ash. I am a slight Bangel fan, and I think that their relationship, as one of the founding ideals of the whole verse, is true love. That is why the consequences are so severe, and why they ultimately cannot be together--physically or emotionally it just ends badly imo. Buffy and Angel both deserve to have and give love, so if Angel goes off and falls for Cordy and Nina and maybe someone else in the future, good for him. Same with Buffy and Riley, Spike, Satsu, and future relationships. To sum up, I do think it's wrong for Angel and Cordy to have a relationship comparable to the Buffy/Angel relationship, because nothing can really touch that, it's just too big. However, I think that it is a smart move to get Angel someone to be with, as he obviously can have relationships and not go evil. Cool discussion,
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Apr 9, 2009 20:09:06 GMT -5
When you think about it, the whole Bangel vs Cangel discussion could go on until the end of time. Me, I'm siding with Cangel, cuz I see a lot more (friendship, love and other things) in their relationship then I do with Bangel. Now I didn't mind the Buffy/Angel love in BTVS season 1-3, but I don't like the idea of Buffy and Angel hooking up together in the future
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 10, 2009 13:11:11 GMT -5
Doesnt anyone remember Angels little fantasy about sleeping with Cordy only to yell out BUFFY! No matter who he is with, ever, he is still going to be drawn the most till Buffy. Even in his fantasy he is thinking about Buffy, so what does that tell you?
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Post by Wyndam on Apr 10, 2009 13:27:50 GMT -5
Doesnt anyone remember Angels little fantasy about sleeping with Cordy only to yell out BUFFY! No matter who he is with, ever, he is still going to be drawn the most till Buffy. Even in his fantasy he is thinking about Buffy, so what does that tell you? That isn't really what happened. There are a lot of interpretations about what happens here, and a lot believe they just replayed the sound bite from when Angel first lost his soul and said Buffy's name, to parallel what was happening with Cordelia, and to make us think that Angel may be about to lose his soul, which he did. If Angel was really thinking about Buffy in order to become perfectly happy, then it would have been Buffy who he was sleeping with, not Cordelia.
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kimtaro
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Post by kimtaro on Apr 10, 2009 14:10:21 GMT -5
Doesnt anyone remember Angels little fantasy about sleeping with Cordy only to yell out BUFFY! No matter who he is with, ever, he is still going to be drawn the most till Buffy. Even in his fantasy he is thinking about Buffy, so what does that tell you? That isn't really what happened. There are a lot of interpretations about what happens here, and a lot believe they just replayed the sound bite from when Angel first lost his soul and said Buffy's name, to parallel what was happening with Cordelia, and to make us think that Angel may be about to lose his soul, which he did. If Angel was really thinking about Buffy in order to become perfectly happy, then it would have been Buffy who he was sleeping with, not Cordelia. Ouch. But didn't someone say that true happiness was very rare and it's probably only something that would happen with Buffy? I forget if it was Giles, Doyle, Wesley...
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Post by Emmie on Apr 10, 2009 14:24:36 GMT -5
Ouch. But didn't someone say that true happiness was very rare and it's probably only something that would happen with Buffy? I forget if it was Giles, Doyle, Wesley... It's also something to debate about that sleeping with Cordy was only part of what it took in his fantasy for him to have a moment of "perfect happiness".
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Apr 10, 2009 16:12:28 GMT -5
If Angel was really thinking about Buffy in order to become perfectly happy, then it would have been Buffy who he was sleeping with, not Cordelia. Actually, the soul-losing spell might have made him get to the quickest way to happyness, not to the most happy alternative. You can get happy with different people, without that person being "the one". Angel finding dream-love with Buffy would possibly have made him lose his soul too, but that would have taken a longer time. His subconscious took the easiest way to happyness. About him saying Buffy; It could be a reflex/habit, saying the old girlfriend's name while you're with the new one.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Apr 11, 2009 1:48:41 GMT -5
Buffy/Angel = Angel/Cordelia = ;D
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