Decanonization of S8 for the sake of a Buffy movie

[Mathieu]

Apr 20, 2009 7:26:02 GMT -5 Secret Scoobie said:

I'm suprised that there is only 8 people who prefer the comics. While I'm a 'can co-exist' kind of person, I thought it'd be about half and half for MOVIE or COMICS.

Awesome poll!

Thanks ;-)

But as some people put it, maybe my choice of answers is a little tricky and misleading, I don't know...

[Mathieu]

Apr 8, 2009 20:06:07 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Apr 8, 2009 12:39:23 GMT -5 danman said:

This "either or" mentality seems stupid to me. There's no reason a movie couldn't be in continuity with Season 8, either picking up before, during, or after the comics.

No one is denying the possibility that a movie could be in continuity with the comics. This thread was created because some fans were concerned when Joss said that he would throw S8 out if he had to, in order to make a movie.
And so, the either/or mentality is quite relevant here, as it's a place where fans are weighing in on whether they would support ditching the comics in place of a movie.

Thanks for defending this thread (a couple weeks ago already, i just noticed). You perfectly explained why I wanted to create this poll in the first place. I was reading stuff from people arguing whether or not it would be acceptable for Joss Whedon to throw away the comics to make the movie, or something like that. So I figured it could be a really interesting debate. Personnally I think it would be a shame to "decanonize" a whole season told over 40ish issues and the best way would probably be to connect the movie to the S8 storyline somehow, but I can see how this would be tricky. And again the chances of a movie being made are very slim anyway.

[Midnight Butterfly]

I would scrap the entire season eight just to get a Buffy movie.
Infact if they dont do a Buffy movie why dont they do a Fray movie or a movie about a different slayer. Faith maybe.

[ligeia]

I think a film set between S7 and S8, bewteen S8 and S9 or after S9 would be nice. But it would be unfair to make us wait several years for a supposedly canon comic run to end, just to tell us afterwards that it is finally not canon ! This would infuriate me.

I'm defenitely against a decanonization of S8. This would be unacceptable.

Edit : Like your avatar The Charmed One !

[iamthewalrus]

i wouldn't ever want the comics to become decanonized
it would take away the whole purpose and enjoyment i get out of them

if there was a Buffy movie i'd like it to take place after Season 8 or 9 or whatever, or inbetween
i just like when everything connects up, and since Season 8 is already considered canon it would be silly of Joss to ever say it's not canon anymore

[Midnight Butterfly]

Apr 21, 2009 11:27:33 GMT -5 ligeia said:

Edit : Like your avatar The Charmed One !

Thanks, made it yesterday

[vampmogs]

There’s no reason why a movie has to contradict or decanonize season eight. That’s what I find so mind bottling about the whole assumption that it’s one or the other. The movie could take place shortly before season eight’s story began or after it, therefore not contradicting anything. There’s a year and a half worth of details that can still be fleshed out between season seven and season eight, that’s plenty of time for a short story in movie form.

If Joss decanonized season eight to make room for a movie, there’s two big problems for me. The first being that it demonstrates the man lacks any creativity. There’s so many ways that they don’t have to contradict each other. The other being that it pretty much becomes a case of false advertising. These comics have been so popular because they’ve been advertised as the *official continuation* of ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer.’ That’s why they frequently make the top ten best sellers list, that’s why forums such as Slayalive and Buffyforums have sub sections devoted to the comics, that’s why we have Scott Allie Q/A’s ect. It’s because it is canon, that’s what the majority of people are paying for. If Joss said it wasn’t canon then he’s basically falsely advertised the entire season and made people buy something under the false premise that this is a legit continuation of the show. People would have the right to be extremely pissed and he’d owe his fans one hell of an explanation. Not to mention that Joss would owe Darkhorse one hell of an explanation as well, because it would basically mean they've falsely advertised this entire series.

I think it would be both ignorant and arrogant of Joss to think he could mess with his fans in that way. It's his right to do what he wants but it doesn't mean he should.

I chose option three by the way. I don't feel it was a cop out option at all. It's a valid option to pick, I would want both. And seeing as how it would be very easy to have both, I think people are justified to pick that option.

[wenxina]

Apr 29, 2009 1:32:36 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I chose option three by the way. I don't feel it was a cop out option at all. It's a valid option to pick, I would want both. And seeing as how it would be very easy to have both, I think people are justified to pick that option.

Going by the question (which is whether or not you'll be willing to dump the comics from official continuity for the sake of a movie), option 3 is merely you saying "No, you're not willing to drop the comics merely for the sake of a movie, BUT that you'd be happy to have a movie AND the comics". Which on a purely technical level is a cop-out, because you are answering the question with a "No". I'm not saying that a qualification to a definitive statement cannot be made, but that having three options instead of 2 splits the votes unnecessarily, since one can always post one's rationale down here. If we wanted a whole range of answers, then well, 3 just ain't enough. How about a "Yes, but I would actually consider them both equal and separately in terms of canonicity"? Apparently that's a pretty popular opinion too.

But it's a moot point, since that movie will probably not happen anytime soon.

[Mathieu]

Apr 29, 2009 8:32:14 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Apr 29, 2009 1:32:36 GMT -5 vampmogs said:

I chose option three by the way. I don't feel it was a cop out option at all. It's a valid option to pick, I would want both. And seeing as how it would be very easy to have both, I think people are justified to pick that option.

Going by the question (which is whether or not you'll be willing to dump the comics from official continuity for the sake of a movie), option 3 is merely you saying "No, you're not willing to drop the comics merely for the sake of a movie, BUT that you'd be happy to have a movie AND the comics". Which on a purely technical level is a cop-out, because you are answering the question with a "No". I'm not saying that a qualification to a definitive statement cannot be made, but that having three options instead of 2 splits the votes unnecessarily, since one can always post one's rationale down here. If we wanted a whole range of answers, then well, 3 just ain't enough. How about a "Yes, but I would actually consider them both equal and separately in terms of canonicity"? Apparently that's a pretty popular opinion too.

But it's a moot point, since that movie will probably not happen anytime soon.

You know what, I created this poll and now actually I do wish I had only offered two options to pick from, it would have made the results clearer. I guess we can consider the third option means a no (although I'm pretty sure some people picked the third option thinking "mmm... what the hell, I want both!" even if they would have gone for the yes answer in the first place).

[Marcos]

I totally understand this poll's results, but it makes me really sad though...

[vampmogs]

I would never consider season eight and the movie two separate "canons" but both equal. My brain can't even process that because I don't think it's possible. One has to be the official canon and the other.. not. You can't have two official equal canons. It defeats the entire purpose of having *a* canon that people can follow.

The reason I picked number three is because it was on the poll to pick and it’s honestly how I feel. I didn’t wanter to answer strictly “yes” or “no” because I don’t feel the ultimatum should even exist. The movie doesn’t even have to reference the comics (thus not confusing fans who aren’t aware they existed and haven’t tuned in since ‘Chosen’ aired) and still can not contradict it. Simply place it *before* season eight but very early on after ‘Chosen.’ Problem solved. Surely Joss, the mastermind behind so many fantastic stories in this verse, can work that out?

If had to pick between yes or no then it would be no. A knee-jerk reaction would be to say yes because I’d give anything to see the actors and live action again. However, as others have stated (particularly Sosa who said it so eloquently) at the end of the day season eight gives us more material to ponder over. The movie would be a momentary thing and then it would be over, the comics are on-going. At the end of the day the comics are more beneficial to the fandom.

[BlueJay]

I think they should just make 4 or 5 3D movie adaptations of the comics. And then a live action film that takes place afterwards.

[Secret Scoobie]

I think it's perfectly reasonably to say you can deal with having them both and will not choose one at the expense of the other as you believe that they can co-exist.

I don't think there is a cop out in there at all. I think it is perfectly valid opinion, and fairy popular.

In what alterate universe would we actually HAVE to choose movie or comics? not going to happen. It's completely hypothetical if you believe it that way.

Yes Joss might drop the canonosity of the comics for a movie, but I'm pretty sure fans wouldn't ignore their feeling about the reality of the comics. And a movie ewould ust be two hours. We could sit there and get back into the 'screen-version-buffy' and then leave the cinema and still believe in the comicverse. I think it would be like a "this is what would of happened if ...." and this is what would of happened if....thy went to scotland"

[wenxina]

May 1, 2009 1:19:16 GMT -5 Secret Scoobie said:

I think it's perfectly reasonably to say you can deal with having them both and will not choose one at the expense of the other as you believe that they can co-exist.

I don't think there is a cop out in there at all. I think it is perfectly valid opinion, and fairy popular.

In what alterate universe would we actually HAVE to choose movie or comics? not going to happen. It's completely hypothetical if you believe it that way.

Yes Joss might drop the canonosity of the comics for a movie, but I'm pretty sure fans wouldn't ignore their feeling about the reality of the comics. And a movie ewould ust be two hours. We could sit there and get back into the 'screen-version-buffy' and then leave the cinema and still believe in the comicverse. I think it would be like a "this is what would of happened if ...." and this is what would of happened if....thy went to scotland"

Not going to bother re-explaining the cop-out. Already did it twice, and if it hasn't changed your mind, doubt it will if I explain it again.

Your last paragraph contradicts your statement that we will never have to choose one over the other. Canon isn't a wishy-washy entirely subjective thing. It's the official continuation of a story. So if Joss did decide to decanonize the comics, they're no longer canon. End of story. Unless he chose to go the Terminator franchise route, with the splitting the canon and all that.

And btw, this was an entirely hypothetical question. It was raised in the context of a statement that Joss made a while ago, about how he would be willing to throw out the comics if it meant being able to make a live-action film (provided there was no way to reconcile the two, I guess, since to just throw one out seems to be an awful waste of time, money, and effort). What places it even more in the realm of the hypothetical is that the movie doesn't look anywhere close to even being in negotiations. If you need to keep believing... look forward to seeing Buffy in a walker when the film comes out. At least SMG will be able to do her own stunts: i.e. strolling down a zen path in a rock garden. Those slippery rocks can be awfully treacherous...

EDIT: The question is really a simple "yes" or "no" one. It's like "Would you be willing to give your cats up, in order to marry a guy who is allergic to them?" Yes, or no. Giving the cats to your niece, friend, etc to ensure they get a good home is not the option, but the qualification. So I argued the cop-out bit again. Sue me.

[Mathieu]

Wenxina, I love your example with the cats. Now I've finally understood the point you've been trying to make all this time! ;-)

[wenxina]

May 1, 2009 7:27:40 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

Wenxina, I love your example with the cats. Now I've finally understood the point you've been trying to make all this time! ;-)

Who said you can't learn anything from Jesus? All the man did was walk around and tell stories.
Except, ya know, when he was busy turning water to wine and all that jazz.

[Secret Scoobie]

May 1, 2009 7:05:13 GMT -5 wenxina said:

May 1, 2009 1:19:16 GMT -5 Secret Scoobie said:

I think it's perfectly reasonably to say you can deal with having them both and will not choose one at the expense of the other as you believe that they can co-exist.

I don't think there is a cop out in there at all. I think it is perfectly valid opinion, and fairy popular.

In what alterate universe would we actually HAVE to choose movie or comics? not going to happen. It's completely hypothetical if you believe it that way.

Yes Joss might drop the canonosity of the comics for a movie, but I'm pretty sure fans wouldn't ignore their feeling about the reality of the comics. And a movie ewould ust be two hours. We could sit there and get back into the 'screen-version-buffy' and then leave the cinema and still believe in the comicverse. I think it would be like a "this is what would of happened if ...." and this is what would of happened if....thy went to scotland"

Not going to bother re-explaining the cop-out. Already did it twice, and if it hasn't changed your mind, doubt it will if I explain it again.

I was not attempting to "challenge" you/your opinion. Me stating MY opinion was not in direct opposition to you, merely expressing me views. If you want me to respond to YOU (as it seems you do re: you responding to me) I have done so below.

I acknowledge that you believe that not CHOOSING is a cop out. But I refuse to believe there is a sound reason we have to choose.

Your last paragraph contradicts your statement that we will never have to choose one over the other. Canon isn't a wishy-washy entirely subjective thing. It's the official continuation of a story. So if Joss did decide to decanonize the comics, they're no longer canon. End of story. Unless he chose to go the Terminator franchise route, with the splitting the canon and all that.

.

Note: I never said they could both be canon.

My point was not that canon is subjective, but that canon is not the be-all-end-all of what fans would choose to follow. In this case if there was a Whedon Movie, and this 'de-canonised' the Whedon-Comics [Which to my knowledge has not happened before] then the choice to follow a Whedon product which is actualy Whedon work, IS a choice a fan could make. Thus, if you're a Whedon fan, and you love the Buffy comics, and would love to see a Buffy movie, then logically there is no reason why a personal choice between them has to be made. Sure you have to admit to yourself "Joss doesn't endorse the comics anymore" but at the same time he was still involved in them and therefore they can still be seen as Official Buffy works.

This is my logic, my opinion, my beliefs. I do not expect to 'convince' you to enjoy both comic & movie - you've made it clear enjoying both and refusing to choose is a 'cop out' in your eyes (Which is a rational conclusion, but you must see I have not echewed logic, I have merely adopted a different path to my conclusion.)

I do not ask you to conform to my standards, but I do politely ask you respect others thinking.

_{"Stubborn thinkers know what they wants to achieve, but they are not open to suggestions, advice, or ideas from those who think in ways that differ from their own. A stubborn thinker may be right, he may be wrong, but it doesn't really matter.
"}

And btw, this was an entirely hypothetical question. It was raised in the context of a statement that Joss made a while ago, about how he would be willing to throw out the comics if it meant being able to make a live-action film (provided there was no way to reconcile the two, I guess, since to just throw one out seems to be an awful waste of time, money, and effort). What places it even more in the realm of the hypothetical is that the movie doesn't look anywhere close to even being in negotiations. If you need to keep believing... look forward to seeing Buffy in a walker when the film comes out. At least SMG will be able to do her own stunts: i.e. strolling down a zen path in a rock garden. Those slippery rocks can be awfully treacherous...

Lol at SMG in a walker!

I completely understand where this hypothetical question came from. But I also understand that hypothetical questions do not need definite answers, and it's quite a refreshing process to question the question. Examples: Why am I only allowed to choose these options? What is the purpose of these answers I am to choose from? What context would change my answer? What boundaries can I see for this in terms of reality?

Hypothetically: Both your mum and your girlfriend are drowning - you can only save one and the other will die. Who do you save?

Hypotheticals don't have right/wrong answers in my opinion. (Most scenarios)

So my answer to this question is:
No I would not give up the comics for a movie
But NO I would not sacrfice a movie for the comics.
Yes I would enjoy them both and consider them both Whedon products - cannon or not - and I would not feel like I was cheating on the comics while watching the movie nor feel like I was betraying the movie when reading the comics.

EDIT: The question is really a simple "yes" or "no" one. It's like "Would you be willing to give your cats up, in order to marry a guy who is allergic to them?" Yes, or no. Giving the cats to your niece, friend, etc to ensure they get a good home is not the option, but the qualification. So I argued the cop-out bit again. Sue me.

I can see your 'point'. But I still do not believe it applies to my scenario. Considering I DID vote for the poll, and the explained my "qualifications" through the thread.

In the context of the cat question. Yes I would give up my cas for a guy if he was allergic ONLY if the cat went to a good home.

No I would not give up my cat for a guy if he was allergic ONLY if the cat would suffer thereafter.

And no I won't "sue" you. I think it's admirable to have guns and stick to them. I don't believe you're wrong per say, but I don't believe we are arguing on the same level or about the same things.

Reference for thinking if you're interested:

Gerrig, R.J., & Zimbardo, P.G. (2008) Psychology and life . Boston: Pearson Education.

[wenxina]

May 2, 2009 7:42:11 GMT -5 Secret Scoobie said:

[Note: I never said they could both be canon.

My point was not that canon is subjective, but that canon is not the be-all-end-all of what fans would choose to follow. In this case if there was a Whedon Movie, and this 'de-canonised' the Whedon-Comics [Which to my knowledge has not happened before] then the choice to follow a Whedon product which is actualy Whedon work, IS a choice a fan could make. Thus, if you're a Whedon fan, and you love the Buffy comics, and would love to see a Buffy movie, then logically there is no reason why a personal choice between them has to be made. Sure you have to admit to yourself "Joss doesn't endorse the comics anymore" but at the same time he was still involved in them and therefore they can still be seen as Official Buffy works.

Look, the point I was making wasn't that you couldn't choose to enjoy both, but that one officially becomes non-canon. It's not a personal attack on your beliefs at all, just stating that I think that the answers are misleading because as I believe that many aren't reading the question for what it's really asking

May 2, 2009 7:42:11 GMT -5 Secret Scoobie said:

This is my logic, my opinion, my beliefs. I do not expect to 'convince' you to enjoy both comic & movie - you've made it clear enjoying both and refusing to choose is a 'cop out' in your eyes (Which is a rational conclusion, but you must see I have not echewed logic, I have merely adopted a different path to my conclusion.)

I do not ask you to conform to my standards, but I do politely ask you respect others thinking.

_{"Stubborn thinkers know what they wants to achieve, but they are not open to suggestions, advice, or ideas from those who think in ways that differ from their own. A stubborn thinker may be right, he may be wrong, but it doesn't really matter.
"}

Funny that you're asking me to respect one's opinion when I haven't done anything but challenge what I think is faulty poll. Nothing at all to do with the opinions. However, you have chose to be pedantic.

And no, I haven't made it clear that enjoying both is a cop-out. I argued that having that option was a cop-out, because one can clearly say what you did below: i.e. qualifying a simple "yes/no" scenario. Do I personally want a movie? No. Would I watch it if it came out? Yes. Would I want the comics decanonized as the hypothetical goes, since Joss has stated that he would do so if it came down to it? No.

Again, not arguing your logic. Just that the poll is faulty. As I said, if the poll offered the qualifications as an option, then merely 1 qualifier between 2 absolutes isn't quite representative, because yes, even though one may qualify one's statement then, if the option isn't listed, the "statistics" would be skewed. That, is my problem with the poll, not with the logic of the voters.

May 2, 2009 7:42:11 GMT -5 Secret Scoobie said:

Lol at SMG in a walker!

I completely understand where this hypothetical question came from. But I also understand that hypothetical questions do not need definite answers, and it's quite a refreshing process to question the question. Examples: Why am I only allowed to choose these options? What is the purpose of these answers I am to choose from? What context would change my answer? What boundaries can I see for this in terms of reality?

Hypothetically: Both your mum and your girlfriend are drowning - you can only save one and the other will die. Who do you save?

Hypotheticals don't have right/wrong answers in my opinion. (Most scenarios)

I never argued that hypotheticals have definite answers. Regardless of whether you chose one of the ominous one word answers, or the "no, with qualification", you're choosing one thing over the other. That's the point I'm making. There's no right or wrong answer, as one is free to qualify one's answer if one so chooses. Giving the option with a valid qualifier without providing numerous others, or at least an "Other - please explain" option detracts from the accuracy of the poll when it comes to surveying the general opinion of this forum (at least that's what it's intended to do). In other words, it should've been a "yes/no" scenario, or a longer list with more optional qualifiers.

Oh, and your hypothetical is actually a really simple one for me: I'm gay.
But on a more serious note, I'll use your hypothetical to make the point that apparently is kinda blunt. I could choose either my mom or my girlfriend, and yes, there wouldn't be a wrong answer... considering one life over the other. But the third option is like saying "I'd save my girlfriend, because my mother is an Olympic grade swimmer" without providing the option of "I'd save my mother, because my girlfriend gave me herpes, and I'm really mad at her". In this case, as in the case of the poll in question, a simple "girlfriend/mother" answer would be best, with the chance to qualify the statement after.

May 2, 2009 7:42:11 GMT -5 Secret Scoobie said:

So my answer to this question is:
No I would not give up the comics for a movie
But NO I would not sacrfice a movie for the comics.
Yes I would enjoy them both and consider them both Whedon products - cannon or not - and I would not feel like I was cheating on the comics while watching the movie nor feel like I was betraying the movie when reading the comics.


I can see your 'point'. But I still do not believe it applies to my scenario. Considering I DID vote for the poll, and the explained my "qualifications" through the thread.

In the context of the cat question. Yes I would give up my cas for a guy if he was allergic ONLY if the cat went to a good home.

No I would not give up my cat for a guy if he was allergic ONLY if the cat would suffer thereafter.

And no I won't "sue" you. I think it's admirable to have guns and stick to them. I don't believe you're wrong per say, but I don't believe we are arguing on the same level or about the same things.

Reference for thinking if you're interested:

Gerrig, R.J., & Zimbardo, P.G. (2008) Psychology and life . Boston: Pearson Education.

I think what you just did with answering the hypotheticals just made my point, so I'll leave it at that. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I agree that we aren't arguing on the same level; I pointed out that I was saying that the poll was faulty, not anyone's logic, whereas you thought that I was calling your stance a "cop-out". So, for the good long record, your logic isn't a "cop-out", the third option in the poll is. Done all the social sciences before... recognized the flaw in the design, just went for it, is all.

Good day to you.

[Secret Scoobie]

Good day to you too!

Lol, well that just cleared the whole mess up! We aren't really talking about the same things! Haha. I can see now that you were talking about the poll, and I was just talking about a stance on the comic vs movie not related to the poll at all.

Sorry for making the argument more personal than it needed to be - i just jumped because you "quoted" me and responded directly to me, and I felt it was my place to defend what I was saying.

I can see where you were going with what you were saying - and sorry for assuming heterosexuality in my hypothetical, I guess that was rude of me! I respect your graces in responding and clarifying your position - your obviously very intelligent!

*karma* for a good debate even though we weren't really aiming in each other's directions. haha.

Kudos my friend!

[wenxina]

*takes out paintgun* Gird thy loins, lady. We're going to actually hit each other this time!
*karmas right back, for being a good sport*