Season 6 - Life is the Big Bad

[Emmie]

Raz, I'm afraid you're really missing my point. And this isn't me speaking as a fellow member. This is me with my moderator voice on.

Making generalizations like "Spuffy fans fly under a different radar imo" and then going on to negatively highlight that opinion is an aggressive judgment of Spuffy fans. You're generalizing. I'm disappointed you feel that it's not worth your time to more carefully phrase your opinions, but it's simply not okay to make such broad generalizations about entire groups of people. It's prejudicial.

My point is that there are Spuffy fans reading that post and going "Excuse me?" For instance, Xaphania who read it earlier but didn't reply til now. It comes off as judgmental and superior against anyone who'd qualify themselves as a Spuffy fan. I'd hope you didn't mean it that way, that's why I asked you to rephrase it.

Raz, you keep saying you made no such generalization but the statement itself - "Spuffy fans obviously fly under a different radar imo" IS the generalization. You make it sound like all Spuffy fans are of one mind, that they are of one opinion, and that opinion is different from yours. Do you see how that's a generalization?

So what's the big deal? Say what you want about the characters, but when you start to pigeonhole groups of fans - that's where you go into dangerious territory.

I honestly could care less about the AR discussion at this point. But being respectful of groups of people is something expected of every member here.

[menomegirl]

Jun 25, 2009 17:58:32 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Raz, I'm afraid you're really missing my point. And this isn't me speaking as a fellow member. This is me with my moderator voice on.

Making generalizations like "Spuffy fans fly under a different radar imo" and then going on to negatively highlight that opinion is an aggressive judgment of Spuffy fans. You're generalizing. I'm disappointed you feel that it's not worth your time to more carefully phrase your opinions, but it's simply not okay to make such broad generalizations about entire groups of people. It's prejudicial.

My point is that there are Spuffy fans reading that post and going "Excuse me?" For instance, Xaphania who read it earlier but didn't reply til now. It comes off as judgmental and superior against anyone who'd qualify themselves as a Spuffy fan. I'd hope you didn't mean it that way, that's why I asked you to rephrase it.

Raz, you keep saying you made no such generalization but the statement itself - "Spuffy fans obviously fly under a different radar imo" IS the generalization. You make it sound like all Spuffy fans are of one mind, that they are of one opinion, and that opinion is different from yours. Do you see how that's a generalization?

So what's the big deal? Say what you want about the characters, but when you start to pigeonhole groups of fans - that's where you go into dangerious territory.

I honestly could care less about the AR discussion at this point. But being respectful of groups of people is something expected of every member here.

Very well-said, Emmie.

[gumgnome]

Jun 25, 2009 15:18:54 GMT -5 henzINNIT said:

I have no problem with how the rape incident was dealt with after season 6, but I didn't like how it was handled immediately afterward. The shots of Spike drinking and having troubling flashbacks? In the same episode as the attempted rape itself? Pfft RIDICULOUS. We don't want or need to sympathise with him at this point.

*Breathes deep, straps himself in and prepares for flak*

DISCLAIMER: This topic is already getting heated so I'm writing this to emphasise that I do not agree with Spike's action or feel he deserves sympathy.

However, the devil in me wants to argue.
Why not show him breaking down? It's clear that he regrets his actions before he leaves the bathroom and is horrified by what he has done. I do not think that by showing him having flashbacks of the rape and drinking to numb himself we are meant to sympathise with him. Surely it is simply to show that this event is a catalyst for his next action - to leave Sunnydale and seek out his soul. If we did not get this scene, would we not then see him just high-tailing out of town on the bike with little insight to his mental state at the time? I defend the scene for keeping us informed as to how his actions have affected him.

[Darth Rosie]

OK, so I'll also give it a shot. I found the AR-storyline simply breathtaking, a very bold move to make. What they showed in the aftermath did nothing to make me sympathise with Spike, especially when he exclaims: "What did I do? What DIDN'T I do?!" This is Spike at his ambivalently a/moral best.
There is NO excuse for what he did whatsoever, but I see how somebody like he could come to this point. Very scary, very true to how things in life sometimes happen.

On to Tara's death. I can hardly think of anything in terms of television or film that has upset me quite as much. I felt like loosing a friend. And I loved that the writers were able to do that to me: to involve me in such a way.

I have also always liked the Willow power/magic-addiction-storyline. Gaining so much power is a very dangerous thing to do, something that is apt to morally corrupt you if you are not extremely careful. One thing somebody said a few pages ago, however, made me rethink my appreciation. Namely, that by making Willow addicted, the writers avoided to explore the full range of moral issues. There is something to that, makes me want to think about it some more.

[henzINNIT]

Jun 26, 2009 7:18:17 GMT -5 gumgnome said:

However, the devil in me wants to argue.
Why not show him breaking down? It's clear that he regrets his actions before he leaves the bathroom and is horrified by what he has done. I do not think that by showing him having flashbacks of the rape and drinking to numb himself we are meant to sympathise with him. Surely it is simply to show that this event is a catalyst for his next action - to leave Sunnydale and seek out his soul. If we did not get this scene, would we not then see him just high-tailing out of town on the bike with little insight to his mental state at the time? I defend the scene for keeping us informed as to how his actions have affected him.

We don't need to see him feeling bad because he is the villain. He is a soulless monster, and the scene was supposed to show the danger that Buffy was in for ever being with him.
His breaking down does nothing but soften the blow of his actions. You should hate Spike for what he did. Showing his remorse just seemed like a desperate attempt to keep people on his side. That sucks ass, because to humanise such an inhuman act is a disgusting idea.
It's not needed to progress his story either, as the writers later make his motives for leaving town blurry anyway. You could have just as easily gone straight from him skulking off from Buffy's, to him leaving town with his ambiguous dialogue, and it would have been arguably more effective for doing so.

[Emmie]

Go you, Darth Rosenberg! I know a lot of people who love Season 6 and it's their favorite.

[henzINNIT]

Jun 26, 2009 13:06:15 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Go you, Darth Rosenberg! I know a lot of people who love Season 6 and it's their favorite.

Woo! And if they do, they're in the wrong place.

[Emmie]

Did I miss the memo where a well-balanced discussion wasn't welcome? You know, that makes a lot of sense now. *raises eyebrow*

The original topic was Season 6 Life is the Big Bad and the discussion was open - I see no reason for everyone to change horses mid-race because somebody started passing around the haterade. Which means if you don't hate, you're free to comment. This isn't a shippers club here, but a discussion of an entire BtVS season. Everyone may participate. I'm just glad to see that people who do love Season 6 haven't been run off completely by the rampant hater-fest.

[wenxina]

May I also add that we should just keep the name of the thread as it started out, instead of changing it every 10 or so posts.
Especially since Emmie pointed out that the original intent of the thread was to discuss certain aspects of S6, and not merely hate on it. The "Season 6 HATE" title is misleading as that was not the purpose of the thread.
Thanks.

[henzINNIT]

I changed this thread's title to adjust it's use after some heated and circling debate elsewhere. I figured if I redesignated this to a place where people can vent their passionate negativity, it would allow those to get it off their chests with others who felt the same way whilst cooling off other areas. It was conceived as largely the same thing back then anyway, so I saw no issue in changing the title. Maybe I should have just started a new thread.

In calling it the "HATE" thread, it's clear to all immediately that it's not going to be pleasent for those who love the season, but it'll be the ideal place for those who hate it. Everyone is free to have their say as always Emmie, but if you love the season, you've ventured into a thread that is not exactly ideal for you. LOVE and HATE threads exist for other topics.

Jun 26, 2009 13:43:12 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Everyone may participate. I'm just glad to see that people who do love Season 6 haven't been run off completely by the rampant hater-fest.

This thread exists exactly so that fans don't have to be subjected to hate everywhere they go. Keeping it here means that it can be avoided if the user choses to. It was actually a "hater" that felt compelled to leave if I recall.

Jun 26, 2009 13:59:59 GMT -5 wenxina said:

May I also add that we should just keep the name of the thread as it started out, instead of changing it every 10 or so posts.
Especially since Emmie pointed out that the original intent of the thread was to discuss certain aspects of S6, and not merely hate on it. The "Season 6 HATE" title is misleading as that was not the purpose of the thread.
Thanks.

I only changed the focus of the thread once, or are you referring to the superficial changes as well? I didn't realise that wasn't allowed, but it'll stop if you deem it so.

[Emmie]

Henz, having the only active Season 6 thread be about HATE goes against the spirit of this forum. We're a Buffy forum. That means we, by definition, love Buffy.

This is different from the Twilight fans and Twilight haters threads, because we're NOT a Twilight forum. So separating the Buffy fans to co-exist is necessary for these topics. But to have the only discussion of Season 6 be focused solely on HATE - just no. There should be a balanced discussion the way it began before, with both pro and con arguments.

If people cannot make reasoned and respectful arguments, then they should bow out of the thread.

We're here for the appreciation of the Buffyverse, not the hatred of the Buffyverse. Well-argued criticism is welcome. I do that all the time with the comics. Spewing HATE - that's a thread we don't need. It goes against why everyone is here to begin with and it only breeds greater negativity.

[henzINNIT]

Well, fine by me. I stand by my idea and reasoning of course. I wasn't aware I was causing problems, many mods have come and gone, CBG himself even contributed. If you think it is against the spirit of the board, you should probably lock this thread.

[wenxina]

Jun 26, 2009 15:54:42 GMT -5 henzINNIT said:

I only changed the focus of the thread once, or are you referring to the superficial changes as well? I didn't realise that wasn't allowed, but it'll stop if you deem it so.

Yeah, it gets a wee bit confusing at times when the superficial changes change the title of the thread. Makes it harder to look up especially if it's backlogged.
It's a practical issue, s'all.

EDIT: But the "Life is the Big Bad" subtitle makes more sense, if we're going to keep this a balanced thread.

[Paul]

On the whole attempted rape issue, it's not as simple as Buffy = good, Spike = bad. You have to remember how much he tried to change for Buffy, and how much he proved himself ("Intervention", anyone?), even though it went against what he was. Also, we can't ignore the fact that Buffy had been physically and emotionally abusing him for months. The attempted rape was the act of someone having a nervous breakdown, he finally cracked. It wasn't like he just decided to do it for the thrill. And he realised what a mistake he made, and did everything in his power to change. Successfully, I might add.

I'm trying to excuse the act of rape, but in these unusual fictional circumstances, I'm sympathetic to Spike. IMO, Buffy's treatment of him across the entire season was much worse.

Jun 26, 2009 16:44:35 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Henz, having the only active Season 6 thread be about HATE goes against the spirit of this forum. We're a Buffy forum. That means we, by definition, love Buffy.

This is different from the Twilight fans and Twilight haters threads, because we're NOT a Twilight forum. So separating the Buffy fans to co-exist is necessary for these topics. But to have the only discussion of Season 6 be focused solely on HATE - just no. There should be a balanced discussion the way it began before, with both pro and con arguments.

If people cannot make reasoned and respectful arguments, then they should bow out of the thread.

We're here for the appreciation of the Buffyverse, not the hatred of the Buffyverse. Well-argued criticism is welcome. I do that all the time with the comics. Spewing HATE - that's a thread we don't need. It goes against why everyone is here to begin with and it only breeds greater negativity.

Thank you. I've been avoiding this thread because the general tone of it was pissing me off. It's one of the reasons I hardly ever post in the CBR forums, all the hate and bashing just gets depressing.

[gumgnome]

On the issue of the thread title, I agree that calling this thread a Season 6 haters thread may have been uneccesary, particularly as I would hardly say what has been going on here has been "spewing hate". I happen to like S6 a great deal and clearly love Buffy dearly, but I feel that if we as fans are unable to criticise aspects of the show that we do not like then we descend into nebbish fanboyism, a boring and wasteful venture. This thread has been allowing discussion from both sides of the argument freely, and that should continue.

I still disagree with you henzINNIT when you say that showing Spike breaking down softens the blow of his actions. I do consider his attempted rape one of the more evil actions on the show, but feel that I can maintain my own feelings about the action even in the course of seeing his. Perhaps you are right about it being more effective seeing Spike leave immediately after the rape attempt with the ambiguous dialogue. I honestly can't decide which version packs a more narratively satisfying punch, but it's a pretty close call...

[Skeptic]

Whoa... this was the "haters" thread? I was just curious. I didn't see that one anymore, and suddenly there was this one, so I decided to finally take a peek. I avoided the one called haters... because even though I have some issues with some various things in BtVS, including S6, I definitely don't hate BtVS or S6. And as Paul said above, it was depressing looking at the thread title.

S6 is actually when I came aboard the fandom. So, I have a soft spot for it, I guess. I enjoy the harsh reality of it, and the dark drama of it, but in all, it ends up being the least-watched of all the seasons for me. It's so intense. I think some of the best writing of the series went on in S6, too, including OMWF, which is one of the most genius things I've ever seen in my life (wouldn't it be cool if OMWF was a full-length Broadway play?), but the overall tone of the season is darkness. And not just any darkness, but Buffy's. The whole season was a giant exercise in welcome-to-my-hell. Buffy went through the darkest period in her life in the season, which only seemed to get darker at the end. Between the crap Willow was doing, and the bullshit Spike tried, those were probably the darkest days ever on this show.

To me, though, I see a sort of natural continuation from S6, all the way through S7 and into S8. It's all focused on Buffy's issues, most especially her loneliness she's really had a hard time with since she was resurrected.

And in regards to her resurrection, to me, that is an enormous violation as well. Spike attacked and tried to rape Buffy. I can't ever condone such a thing, but in Spike's warped mind, he was trying to love her. Even chipped, Spike is still a demon, though, and could not be trusted. Buffy's mistake was trusting him and Spike's mistake was thinking he could be a better man, when in reality his was obsessed, stalkery, and then violent.

But Willow also did something horrible to Buffy. One can argue that Willow did what she did because she loved her, and she wanted her to be safe and happy. However, in all the time that Buffy was gone, it never even crossed her mind that Buffy might actually have died and gone on to some sort of happy afterlife, and wanted to stay dead. By the time S6 rolls around, we're getting to see something different in Willow, as well: she's got too much power, and she often only uses it for her own benefit, and sees what she does as a favor to everyone else. The confrontation she and Giles had in the kitchen after he came back to Sunny-D, and the confrontation they have at the end of the season, is proof, not to mention all the abusive things Willow does with magic all during the season. I would think that, if I were Buffy, I would also not be able to easily forgive Willow. The act of resurrection was also a physically violent and terrifying ordeal for Buffy, and its an event that's still echoing in her life even now.

My 2 cents for now. Sammich time. Gumgnome's banner is making me hungry. lol

[The Night Lord]

Jun 26, 2009 17:13:02 GMT -5 Paul said:

On the whole attempted rape issue, it's not as simple as Buffy = good, Spike = bad. You have to remember how much he tried to change for Buffy, and how much he proved himself ("Intervention", anyone?), even though it went against what he was. Also, we can't ignore the fact that Buffy had been physically and emotionally abusing him for months. The attempted rape was the act of someone having a nervous breakdown, he finally cracked. It wasn't like he just decided to do it for the thrill. And he realised what a mistake he made, and did everything in his power to change. Successfully, I might add.

I'm trying to excuse the act of rape, but in these unusual fictional circumstances, I'm sympathetic to Spike. IMO, Buffy's treatment of him across the entire season was much worse.

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't see it that way. Okay yes, rape is one of the worst things someone can do to someone else, but Spike attempts this and everyone condones him, saying he should be staked, monster, blah blah blah, whereas Buffy has, as you said, been emotionally and physically abusing him for months on end. He simply cracked, but he's the monster? At least Spike realised his mistake and did his best to fix that mistake. He left town and earned himself a soul to make himself a better man. Sure it was for Buffy, but for himself as well, cause the soul did make Spike a better man
So I guess I am sympathetic to Spike's case there. I mean, I don't really see how it's completely right for Buffy to be kicking the unliving sh*t out of Spike for months, completely abusing him, whereas Spike attempts to rape her and he's suddenly a condemned person, just because he doesn't have a soul?

[wenxina]

Jun 29, 2009 2:11:37 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't see it that way. Okay yes, rape is one of the worst things someone can do to someone else, but Spike attempts this and everyone condones him

You mean "condemn" don't you? Condoning would be supportive, condemning against.

[Johanne]

I love season 6. I love how dark it is, and I think the "life is the big bad" theme was both necessary and great.

[The Night Lord]

Jun 29, 2009 8:33:51 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Jun 29, 2009 2:11:37 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't see it that way. Okay yes, rape is one of the worst things someone can do to someone else, but Spike attempts this and everyone condones him

You mean "condemn" don't you? Condoning would be supportive, condemning against.

Yeah, I mean condemn. I thought condoning meant the same thing as condemn. Thanks for that