First Night Frustrations

[Disgruntled Gremlin]

Apologies for starting a new thread, but it seems I’ve missed the hubbub on the issue 7 thread in my quest to remain spoiler free. I think I’ve raised enough points that my frustrations toward the First Night merit a new section. I should warn, this might look like an enormous rant to you, but I’m doing my best to be constructive and fair in my criticisms. My complaint here is against the First Night story section – I seek not to convert you to my whiny ways, only to express my distaste in an eloquent fashion for you all to consider and evaluate.

And Brian, if you’re reading and would like to jump in, I would be nothing but flattered : ) You are doing a bang up job, and even if I take issue with a, well, issue, the completist in me won’t ever miss one.

On with the analysis!


When I finally got around to reading the latest issue, and found it much more enjoyable than #6 (which I’ve liked less and less each time I read it), but I still can't shake the feeling of superfluousness (superfluosity?). Mutant Enemy always seemed to recognize that giving fans exactly what they want is dullsville. (this would be the reason that ninth grade fanfiction we all mailed to the WB where Buffy and Angel get together and have lots of little Connors somehow got lost in the mail...) First Night still feels to me like excessive Fanservice -- it answers the questions we've been asking forever, and not much else. There's little character development here -- in fact, there's very little characterization at all. While the problems here aren't half as bad as the "Spike" or "Lorne" stories we got last ish, this is the second time in two months that I've questioned "did I really need to buy this?"

Covers

The A Cover is a mixed bag – good likenesses that aren’t too photorealistic, but it’s hampered by Gwen’s bizarre pose. The Spike variant is nice, and anyone who thinks comparing him to the 1990’s Batman cartoon is unflattering must be on another planet. Still, there’s no excusing the fact that one hallucination aside, Spike isn’t in these books; cover A wins hands down.

Betta George

Here’s where the problemos start for me. Betta George's story is supposed to link the other stories together, right? Despite this, I see no clear thematic link between what happened to him here and what happened to Kate, Connor, and Wes. There was no direct plot thread tying them together either, so why was this strategy used? The snippets we got here and last issue are so brief, it's hard to feel like a cohesive "Betta George" story is being told -- it reads to me more like we're getting a random framing sequence to fill pages, and stories like Kate’s here and Spike’s last issue desperately need the space to breathe.

Don't get me wrong, George is fun character -- I love the thought of a giant telepathic betta, and he was used very well in "Spike: Asylum" (though IMO he was just window dressing in "Shadow Puppets"). However, the storytelling in this sequence is simply unacceptable, especially considering this is IDW's flagship title.

Here’s what I mean: In the second panel from the top on page one, we can see that Douche Lackey (you know who I mean) is being beaten up by Spike at a carnival. Why does he suddenly appear to be...encased in a bubble? Made of cardboard? He's back to normal by the bottom panel with no explanation. I realize that continuity things like this are cut to save page space, and I don't need every detail of a sequence spelled out for me in the art as some readers seem to suggest, but I would like some basic hint as to what's going on here.

Then, there's the mysterious "help" bubble in the final panel of page one, which seems to have no relation to the George story, or the Wesley story that follows it. It's not in the same font or colouring as any other balloon in the issue. It could potentially be a lead in to the Kate sequence, but that doesn't appear until the halfway point. Who’s saying this? What gives?

The last page did nothing to change my distaste for this story. I have absolutely no idea why Geoge is asking "How did you --" in the top panel, or what power he had to kill/die for. As far as I could tell, Douche Lackey somehow got in front of George...which means his super power is, um, being able to outrun a big floaty fish? I assume this power will be a plot point later in the series, which will surely have readers who shrugged off this sequence in confusion scratching their heads later. By the bottom panel, George is covered in those web...things again, but how? Is that Douche Lackey's power? Did he do something to him offpanel?

To be fair to Lynch, he's not given himself very many pages to work with, but that doesn't forgive the frankly bizarre storytelling that rendered these sequences incomprehensible to me. Some blame also has to fall on artist Tim Kane. I don't mind his stylized interpretations of the vampire and the slayers -- in fact, I'd love to see how his minimalist angles would benefit someone like Illyria. Aside from the one-panel Spike bit, however, there are no familiar faces to be found. Douche Lackey is drawn a little generically, but at least he has the shaved head to set him apart in future issues. His George has improved, but he still looks too little like a betta and too much like a trout with really weird fins. The real problem, though, is the way he's staged the story, which for me rendered what should have been a quaint bit of filler into something frustrating.

I hate to be a snickerpuss (actually, it's a blast, but one of those cartoon forest animals in "Bambi" told me it was rude), so I should point out that two interesting things DID happen in this take. The first:George's dialogue and characterization is spot on -- even folks who haven't read "Asylum" or "Shadow Puppets" should by this point have the general idea of a sarcastic guy who happens to be a floaty telepathic fish. It's nice to see his continued admiration of Spike, too.

Then, the slayer thing, which I honestly found a twinge disappointing -- with the slayer issue being dealt with so splendidly on Buffy, it would have been nice this Angel series stand on its own. Clearly, though, Lynch is not interested in holding back from using all the favourites (issue 5, cover A much?), which is fine so long as characterization isn't sacrificed in the process. From here, this could turn into either a very cool shout out to continuity buffs, or a lame writer's crutch -- too early to tell. I'm curious as to how multiple slayers were obtained and trapped in a hotel basement without the obvious use of any shackles, but given the magic precedent in this universe, I'll give Lynch the benefit of the doubt. Still, I'm not convinced that there wasn't a better way to introduce this detail -- as is, it's pretty clear that issue 8 won't wrap up that plot thread, so why introduce it here?

Wesley

This is definitely my favourite First Night story, and I suspect it’s the reason the series was originally planned. The images of Wes floating up to cloud nine reminded me of the dream sequences in S5’s “Soul Purpose,” and although the eventual cheat was obvious, it was still effective. This tale served as a nice reminder that Wes is still the badass of S3-4 at heart, not a dorky whipping boy (or a vessel for the First Evil, a theory that I initially jumped on quicker than you can say “non-corporeal”). The characterization of Wes is much closer to what we’ve seen on the show than the butchered caricatures of Spike, Illyria, Connor, and Lorne we were “treated” to last month, both honouring the character and pushing his story forward.

However, I still have to question how necessary this story is. Up until this point, it has been unclear what Wesley’s role is in Hell. Now, it’s made explicit that his current situation is exactly as it appeared – he’s being forced to work for Wolfram and Hart, but is still rooting for Team Angel. Any betrayal, as hinted at in the tantalizing last panel, will result from him being duped by the Sr. Partners, not an action of his own doing. Dramatically, that is something of a disappointment, but it still leaves lots of interesting doors open.

However, the story is not without its problems. One is the creature impersonating Fred. Who exactly is talking here? Is it one of the Sr. Partners speaking directly to Wesley? Considering how little interest the Sr. Partners ever took in Angel directly, this would come as a bit of a shock. Although I’m sure Angel’s threat status has been upgraded to B-list nuisance post Not Fade Away, I still find it hard to believe they would let the Jasmine thing slide and then take the time to dress up to fool one of Angel’s “flunkies.” No, it seems the entity here is the long-forgotten, never-explained, better-forgotten Conduit from the White Room in S5, a plot-device-as-character that basically exists to do whatever the hell the writer wants to do with it, and bubble it’s talking to represents the voice of the partners. While the Conduit here seems to serve the role of temptress nicely, its characterization is liable to be so fluid that I can’t muster much interest in it as a recurring villain – I hope this is the last we see of it.

This is one case where casting a familiar face would have been entirely welcome – imagine the thrill of Wes hopping into Bed with Fred and revealing undead Lilah Morgan instead? Cool? Yes. Consistent with what we’ve seen before? Yes. Sexual tension? Yes, yes, and yes! Undoubtedly, the reason Lilah (or Eve, or another directly identifiable figure) wasn’t used in this capacity is that we’re supposed to be shocked by the sight of this evil being impersonating Fred. Problem is, we’re used to Illyria hanging out in her face, so the irony seems less diabolical than sorta mean spirited. Then there’s Nick Runge’s art…

Honestly, I get the complaints about Franco Urru but I really dig the guy – his cartooniness, his rough detail work, his palindromely surname, and his sometimes smush-faced but almost always recognizable likenesses. Here, I feel like Runge is trying a little hard to nail Amy and Alexis, with results that are hit-and-miss for me. In about half the panels, Fred looks just like her old self. At the point of her big, naked reveal, however, she could well be Lilah if not for the hair. Wesley’s “If this wasn’t a Lie” grimace is perfect, but Fred’s smile and his corresponding look of disappointment look like outtakes from their drunken escapade in “Life of the Party.” I’m sure Runge will find his groove, but I would still much prefer a relatively consistent character design panel-to-panel than a an attempt to directly recreate an actor’s face with various success depending on their position.

Likeness issues aside, there’s little to complain about in the art (perhaps a little overly detailed shading in the shadows, but nothing major). As I mentioned, the layouts of each panel are top notch throughout. Unlike the George story, it’s perfectly clear where our attention is supposed to be and how each panel relates to the next spatially. The unnerving way Wes’ uniform change is staged is a particular highlight for me. Also, anyone who has ever felt a pang of attraction for a dude should be cheering for the close up on Wesley’s ass. It totally redeems the bad Fred likeness in that panel. At last, some equal opportunity man-candy to assuage the (frankly, correct) feminists who cried foul at the gratuitous shots of Spike’s lady friends earlier in the series. Although, when did Fred get so busty and curvaceous? (that’s how Wes should’ve been able to tell her apart: evil boobs)

Despite Lynch’s great ear for dialogue and mostly-great if imperfect art, this story still feels very simple. From the twist onward, little was given aside from exposition, and while we’re invited to feel for Wesley, I didn’t find myself exactly reveling in his pain. I mean, the guy just died – surely there was a bit more tension that could’ve been wrung (note the w) out of that? This is a well told story, but not a particularly memorable or remarkable one, and certainly nothing to justify the horrid sixth issue. I’m intrigued with what the Partners have in store for Wesley, but I also feel like I wasted my time trying to look for subtle hints as to his motivation when it turned out to be pretty much what we all expected. Plot wise, everything here was expected. Thematically, this is well-tread territory. Translation: bored now.

KATE

Part II of our three-part Connor tale (I assume that Kate’s dealer is Gwen, which will continue into issue 8) was both a highlight and a letdown for me. First, the good stuff, which was pretty much summed up in the title. Kate Lockley was a fantastic character, and the role she’s been given here feels so right, it’s a wonder she wasn’t chosen over Gwen or Nina for a regular role in the cast. Her appearance was a genuine surprise (aside from her presence on the cover, and her name on the inside jacket), and as much as I adore Cordelia, I’m relieved that she wasn’t the mystery woman. I don’t care what anyone else has said – Stephen Mooney’s Kate looks fantastic, and the choice of attire was absolutely perfect for her. Of course, Kate is given very little to work with as she kicks some ass, runs, and goes back to kick some more ass, but it’s enough. She gets to prove she’s a badass and quickly fills us in on what she’s been up to, giving no more detail than absolutely necessary. If this sort of quick exposition could be achieved so neatly more often, there would be no need for a First Night series at all. The paraphrased Angel quote was a great way to sum up her character, and I genuinely hope we get to see more of her, if not here, then in some sort of spinoff?

On the other hand, there’s the kid on the receiving end of her speech. Connor doesn’t come across very well in this story. While he was always controversial on the show, this incarnation did absolutely nothing to endear himself to me in this issue. For a story billed as “how Connor became LA’s greatest champion,” he doesn’t get to do a lot. The three Dads thing was trying last month, and was downright annoying here. And the “a new voice to listen to” line felt forced – we get it, he’s a good kid now. In this case, good apparently means vanilla.

For a boy who spent most of last issue blabbing about what each of his fathers would do, he doesn’t seem to give a damn about Angel or his adoptive-non-father here. He was rushing towards W&H to save Angel, right? In that case, why does he lose all concern for his well-being now? Why isn’t he worried about what it means for Angel and his other Dad that a big ol’ demon army now knows that he’s Angel’s kid? Isn’t he concerned that the dad who “raised” him to be the model of mental health he is today might now have learned the truth, and could try to reject him? Or, say, the fact that both his powerless adoptive parents are suddenly stuck in hell without a protector? Apparently, that internal tension isn’t as interesting as seeing that yes, he’s STILL into older women.

In my comments for issue 6, I complained about Connor’s reaction to receiving his memories – it felt like a gigantic cheat that rather than him dealing with the fact that he willingly murdered an innocent girl (“Inside Out”), knowingly sacrificed dozens of followers to a false God (the Jasmine arc), and was so depressed that he nearly blew up a mall (“Home”), he went “eeew, I did Cordy!” along with the rest of us. That admittedly icky plotpoint is something no fan needed (or wanted) to be reminded of. More importantly, though, if we are to accept Connor 2.0 as the model of mental health, he should be a little more shaken up by the callousness he held toward human life, not just his inappropriate sexual shenanigans. In “Not Fade Away,” I bought his refusal to bond with Angel as a refusal to identify with that person. This is why their relationship was not intended to go any further than a little help with a resume now and then, but by the end of that episode, he had decided to put his personal demons away, and went to do the right thing and try to help Angel in the fight. Here, just a few hours later, he’s confronted with all those issues, and has absolutely nothing to say about them as if they never happened. Dis. A. Pointing.

I struggle with my feelings toward this story segment. On the one hand, there’s the great treatment of Kate, combined with solid story telling, snappy dialogue, and good artwork. On the other, we’ve reduced Connor’s supposed hero story to “boy goes to hell, boy almost gets hurt, boy gets saved.” Any bystander could have fulfilled this role, and this was a huge waste of a good chance to see what makes Conn 2.0 tick.

OVERALL

After the spectacular first issue, my interest in After the Fall has steadily declined. However, the First Night story is the first post S8 Buffyverse comics that I actively didn’t enjoy reading. To fit its page count, the Spike story left all the character bits on the cutting room floor, rendering it nothing more than an advertisement for Spike: After the Fall. The Lorne story’s mediocre rhyming couplets masked dull exposition that we could have figured out for ourselves. The Betta George story is filler hampered by terrible staging, and while the Kate story carved a great role for an old character, it utterly failed in its treatment of Connor. That leaves the Wesley story, an admirable but ultimately forgettable piece that still fails to give more than rudimentary insight into what Wesley is feeling right now. Yes, a few hints have been dropped about the tough times ahead, but wouldn’t it have been more fun exploring these plot points in real time than playing “let’s see what ___ did last week” for two and a half months? Angel: After the Fall is on such a tight issue count that it’s hard not to resent 44 pages of what has thus far been mostly trivial.

Tell me then, was this three issue side trip worth cutting page time from the main story? Have you had as many problems with First Night as I have? Is there something about the George story that I’m missing? Am I just being a snickerpuss?

Discuss!

[patxshand]

May 20, 2008 3:53:30 GMT -5 Disgruntled Gremlin said:

Here’s what I mean: In the second panel from the top on page one, we can see that Douche Lackey (you know who I mean) is being beaten up by Spike at a carnival. Why does he suddenly appear to be...encased in a bubble? Made of cardboard? He's back to normal by the bottom panel with no explanation. I realize that continuity things like this are cut to save page space, and I don't need every detail of a sequence spelled out for me in the art as some readers seem to suggest, but I would like some basic hint as to what's going on here.

Betta George has psychic powers. What happened here is that he made Douche Lackey *THINK* he was at a carnival being beaten up by Spike. He says it right there in the caption. He becomes one of those things that you hit and it bounces back to you. For that moment. There is no reason to put another panel which shows him 'transforming' back into human shape, because it's obvious and would just bog down the page.

Then, there's the mysterious "help" bubble in the final panel of page one, which seems to have no relation to the George story, or the Wesley story that follows it. It's not in the same font or colouring as any other balloon in the issue. It could potentially be a lead in to the Kate sequence, but that doesn't appear until the halfway point. Who’s saying this? What gives?

I don't know what the "Help" was for. It would appear to lead into the Wesley story, though I don't see where that fits.

The last page did nothing to change my distaste for this story. I have absolutely no idea why Geoge is asking "How did you --" in the top panel, or what power he had to kill/die for.

At this point, I think you may have been looking for reasons to dislike this story and kinda just glanced at it instead of trying to understand it, because this part is fairly straight-forward.

Betta George thought he was psychically controlling the Lackey, but the Lackey was strong enough to overcome that and attacked him. Betta Georged asked him "How he did that." The power the Lackey had to die for was his vampire power--I mean, come on. The power he had to kill for is either the strength he got when he trained against slayers or something we don't know about yet. Or, more simply, he could be talking about the strength he gets when he drinks blood.

As far as I could tell, Douche Lackey somehow got in front of George...which means his super power is, um, being able to outrun a big floaty fish? I assume this power will be a plot point later in the series, which will surely have readers who shrugged off this sequence in confusion scratching their heads later.

There isn't really any confusion as far as I've seen--until now. On most boards, it has been understood that Betta George made the Lackey think (with his telepath powers, which he even SAYS he's doing as he does it) he was getting beaten up by Spike on the first page. While the Lackey thought that was happening, Betta George goes to escape. But the Lackey is too strong to be spellbound by Betta's telepathic powers. He pulls him back by his tail in the final panel of page one. Then, on the last page, he's facing off against Betta. That's not bad writing or paneling, that's just how the comic medium works.

By the bottom panel, George is covered in those web...things again, but how? Is that Douche Lackey's power? Did he do something to him offpanel?

We don't even know what the web-things do yet, other than keep George captured. I think it's fair to say this is something we should be patient for.

To be fair to Lynch, he's not given himself very many pages to work with, but that doesn't forgive the frankly bizarre storytelling that rendered these sequences incomprehensible to me. Some blame also has to fall on artist Tim Kane. I don't mind his stylized interpretations of the vampire and the slayers -- in fact, I'd love to see how his minimalist angles would benefit someone like Illyria. Aside from the one-panel Spike bit, however, there are no familiar faces to be found. Douche Lackey is drawn a little generically, but at least he has the shaved head to set him apart in future issues. His George has improved, but he still looks too little like a betta and too much like a trout with really weird fins. The real problem, though, is the way he's staged the story, which for me rendered what should have been a quaint bit of filler into something frustrating.

Eh. I thought it was really well written.

I hate to be a snickerpuss (actually, it's a blast, but one of those cartoon forest animals in "Bambi" told me it was rude), so I should point out that two interesting things DID happen in this take. The first:George's dialogue and characterization is spot on -- even folks who haven't read "Asylum" or "Shadow Puppets" should by this point have the general idea of a sarcastic guy who happens to be a floaty telepathic fish. It's nice to see his continued admiration of Spike, too.

Then, the slayer thing, which I honestly found a twinge disappointing -- with the slayer issue being dealt with so splendidly on Buffy, it would have been nice this Angel series stand on its own. Clearly, though, Lynch is not interested in holding back from using all the favourites (issue 5, cover A much?), which is fine so long as characterization isn't sacrificed in the process. From here, this could turn into either a very cool shout out to continuity buffs, or a lame writer's crutch -- too early to tell. I'm curious as to how multiple slayers were obtained and trapped in a hotel basement without the obvious use of any shackles, but given the magic precedent in this universe, I'll give Lynch the benefit of the doubt. Still, I'm not convinced that there wasn't a better way to introduce this detail -- as is, it's pretty clear that issue 8 won't wrap up that plot thread, so why introduce it here?

But why... not introduce it here? This isn't just like a *special feature* of "After the Fall," it's the actual story. Anything can be introduced in these issues and continued later. These aren't like arcs. This is one long story. The Betta George stuff is simply what's happening to him during the Issue Five fight.

Wesley

This is definitely my favourite First Night story, and I suspect it’s the reason the series was originally planned. The images of Wes floating up to cloud nine reminded me of the dream sequences in S5’s “Soul Purpose,” and although the eventual cheat was obvious, it was still effective. This tale served as a nice reminder that Wes is still the badass of S3-4 at heart, not a dorky whipping boy (or a vessel for the First Evil, a theory that I initially jumped on quicker than you can say “non-corporeal”). The characterization of Wes is much closer to what we’ve seen on the show than the butchered caricatures of Spike, Illyria, Connor, and Lorne we were “treated” to last month, both honouring the character and pushing his story forward.

I think you might be being harsh for the sake of being harsh. How was Connor's characterization a butchered caricature? And Illyria hardly even spoke, so that is very simply a harsh and strange exaggeration on your part. In fact, Illyria didn't speak. We just saw her fight. Does seeing her fight make her a butchered cariacture?

However, I still have to question how necessary this story is. Up until this point, it has been unclear what Wesley’s role is in Hell. Now, it’s made explicit that his current situation is exactly as it appeared – he’s being forced to work for Wolfram and Hart, but is still rooting for Team Angel. Any betrayal, as hinted at in the tantalizing last panel, will result from him being duped by the Sr. Partners, not an action of his own doing. Dramatically, that is something of a disappointment, but it still leaves lots of interesting doors open.

The point of the story was to see what happened to Wesley, see WHY he is acting as the representative (which we did NOT know before), and to see his role in all of this. This is all new stuff, and not at all as it had appeared.

However, the story is not without its problems. One is the creature impersonating Fred. Who exactly is talking here? Is it one of the Sr. Partners speaking directly to Wesley? Considering how little interest the Sr. Partners ever took in Angel directly, this would come as a bit of a shock. Although I’m sure Angel’s threat status has been upgraded to B-list nuisance post Not Fade Away, I still find it hard to believe they would let the Jasmine thing slide and then take the time to dress up to fool one of Angel’s “flunkies.” No, it seems the entity here is the long-forgotten, never-explained, better-forgotten Conduit from the White Room in S5, a plot-device-as-character that basically exists to do whatever the hell the writer wants to do with it, and bubble it’s talking to represents the voice of the partners. While the Conduit here seems to serve the role of temptress nicely, its characterization is liable to be so fluid that I can’t muster much interest in it as a recurring villain – I hope this is the last we see of it.

Not quite seeing how this is a problem? If it is a Senior Partner impersonating Fred, we'll see. If it's the Conduit (which, like it or not, is part of the mythology), then we'll see.

This is one case where casting a familiar face would have been entirely welcome – imagine the thrill of Wes hopping into Bed with Fred and revealing undead Lilah Morgan instead? Cool? Yes. Consistent with what we’ve seen before? Yes. Sexual tension? Yes, yes, and yes!

Yeah, maybe sexy, but also OOC. Why would Lilah do that to Wes? She's still working for W&H, yes, but her exit implied that she loved Wes.

Undoubtedly, the reason Lilah (or Eve, or another directly identifiable figure) wasn’t used in this capacity is that we’re supposed to be shocked by the sight of this evil being impersonating Fred. Problem is, we’re used to Illyria hanging out in her face, so the irony seems less diabolical than sorta mean spirited. Then there’s Nick Runge’s art...

Honestly, I get the complaints about Franco Urru but I really dig the guy – his cartooniness, his rough detail work, his palindromely surname, and his sometimes smush-faced but almost always recognizable likenesses. Here, I feel like Runge is trying a little hard to nail Amy and Alexis, with results that are hit-and-miss for me. In about half the panels, Fred looks just like her old self. At the point of her big, naked reveal, however, she could well be Lilah if not for the hair. Wesley’s “If this wasn’t a Lie” grimace is perfect, but Fred’s smile and his corresponding look of disappointment look like outtakes from their drunken escapade in “Life of the Party.” I’m sure Runge will find his groove, but I would still much prefer a relatively consistent character design panel-to-panel than a an attempt to directly recreate an actor’s face with various success depending on their position.

I think Wes and Fred look quite perfect in each panel here. I was less impressed with the Runge page we saw from #9, but I think the Wesley story is the best art we've seen in the Buffyverse, period.

Likeness issues aside, there’s little to complain about in the art (perhaps a little overly detailed shading in the shadows, but nothing major). As I mentioned, the layouts of each panel are top notch throughout. Unlike the George story, it’s perfectly clear where our attention is supposed to be and how each panel relates to the next spatially. The unnerving way Wes’ uniform change is staged is a particular highlight for me. Also, anyone who has ever felt a pang of attraction for a dude should be cheering for the close up on Wesley’s ass. It totally redeems the bad Fred likeness in that panel. At last, some equal opportunity man-candy to assuage the (frankly, correct) feminists who cried foul at the gratuitous shots of Spike’s lady friends earlier in the series. Although, when did Fred get so busty and curvaceous? (that’s how Wes should’ve been able to tell her apart: evil boobs)

That last sentiment is kinda what I hate most about Buffyverse fans. Feminism is a big issue, but fan's take it to the point where if boobs don't curve *inward*, then the artist is exaggerating. No, Amy Ackey had moderately small breasts, but by no means were they exaggerated in this story. In the SPIKE story, yes. Not at all this one.

Despite Lynch’s great ear for dialogue and mostly-great if imperfect art, this story still feels very simple. From the twist onward, little was given aside from exposition, and while we’re invited to feel for Wesley, I didn’t find myself exactly reveling in his pain. I mean, the guy just died – surely there was a bit more tension that could’ve been wrung (note the w) out of that? This is a well told story, but not a particularly memorable or remarkable one, and certainly nothing to justify the horrid sixth issue. I’m intrigued with what the Partners have in store for Wesley, but I also feel like I wasted my time trying to look for subtle hints as to his motivation when it turned out to be pretty much what we all expected. Plot wise, everything here was expected. Thematically, this is well-tread territory. Translation: bored now.

*shrug*

The story was my favorite since the final moments of "Not Fade Away." It made me tear. It made me gasp. Can't see how it could have been better.

KATE

Part II of our three-part Connor tale (I assume that Kate’s dealer is Gwen, which will continue into issue 8) was both a highlight and a letdown for me. First, the good stuff, which was pretty much summed up in the title. Kate Lockley was a fantastic character, and the role she’s been given here feels so right, it’s a wonder she wasn’t chosen over Gwen or Nina for a regular role in the cast. Her appearance was a genuine surprise (aside from her presence on the cover, and her name on the inside jacket), and as much as I adore Cordelia, I’m relieved that she wasn’t the mystery woman. I don’t care what anyone else has said – Stephen Mooney’s Kate looks fantastic, and the choice of attire was absolutely perfect for her.

I'm sorry, I just can't see how you can justify hating on Runge's art and then saying that Stephen Mooney's Kate looks good. Does the Kate you saw on television have face cancer? Her face is shadowed and pokes out in all kinds of directions all over this story.

Tell me then, was this three issue side trip worth cutting page time from the main story? Have you had as many problems with First Night as I have? Is there something about the George story that I’m missing? Am I just being a snickerpuss?

For the most part, you're absolutely being a snickerpuss for the sake of being one. If you re-read some of the stuff you're complaining about *without* expecting to be disappointed, you, you know, wouldn't be. I agree with some of the stuff you said (esp about Issue 6, which I wasn't huge on), but 99% of it, I think, was off the mark.

[Disgruntled Gremlin]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. (blesses)

I'll post a lengthy response to the points you've raised when I have bit more time.

[dane5by5]

I absolutely loved the double cover for issues 6 and 7. I was looking at it yesterday and thinking how much I loved Gwen's pose. I thought it was fantastic. The artist created amazing likeness to the actors.

The Wesley story in first night is one of my favourites so far in this series, First Night is actually the first time I've been genuinely invested in the story of After The Fall. The first five issues left me kind of cold, although I enjoyed the story, I think the art is what I really couldn't connect with. Which makes me appreciate the artist that worked on the Wesley story even more. I can't describe how much I loved the art, even if some some panels didn't have the fantastic likeness, I felt the art really contributed to the story.

The Kate story has been my favourite of the series so far. I think the artist was great, equally as good as the Wesley story artist. The story felt organic, exactly where Kate belonged, what she would do in that situation, her dialogue, everything. I've never been the biggest fan of Connor, I never hated him, but I never cared for him. This story didn't really change that, I feel that he takes time away from the characters I care about. I care about Kate, Nina, Gwen, fairly minor characters more than him, and I would rather they had more story devoted to them. I can understand your concerns about the characters thoughts and actions in the past few issues, but I should remind you, he is a teenager. Sex tends to take up a lot of time in the teenage mind. So I think Brian is just moving Connor into that territory. Connor does have a mixed history, he does have superpowers, but he is also a teenager. It seems appropriate, his thoughts that is.

I haven't read any of the other work Brian Lynch has done in Angel, so I'm trying not to pass judgement on Betta George yet. I'm pretty indifferent to him at the moment, but I have to say, the reveal he made at the end of this issue was my favourite so far in the series! I can't wait to see what Gunn is doing with the Slayers.

Oh, and I hope you're right about Gwen being Kate's dealer. That would be a great way to tie her into the story, and introduce her to Connor!

[El Diablo Robotico]

DG, I agree with a lot of what you said, and disagree with parts of it, too (mainly that while a lot of your criticisms sound valid to me, I've still enjoyed these two issues a lot).

The highlights of "First Night" for me so far are the Wesley story, and the Lorne one--hey, sue me, I thought the Lorne bit was cool, and suited him perfectly. I haven't been a fan of the Tim Kane artwork on the Betta George bookends, but the rest of it I thought has been anywhere between fine and very good (Runge's likenesses were hit-or-miss, as you pointed out, but Jeanty in S8 has struggled with some characters at first, and then gotten much better as he's continued to work on them, so we'll see what happens here).

My gripes so far have been about the Spike/Illyria, and Connor stories. You said the Spike one just felt like an ad for "Spike: After the Fall". I wouldn't go that far, but it did feel like filler between this series and that, as tho not too much could be done here because it was mostly being saved for his own upcoming miniseries. And you called the Connor/Kate portion of this one Part 2 of 3, and I didn't realize there was a third part after this, but I hope you're right (Gwen's tale is in the next one, right? So I suppose Connor will turn up there), because it definitely feels like there's more to tell there. Even with one more part in the next issue, tho, I don't feel like that's enough room to really tell his story anywhere close to as fully as it needs and deserves. What he really needed was a miniseries of his own--problem is, that was never gonna happen, because it just wouldn't have sold well enough (maybe if they put Spike on every cover... ).

But really, my biggest problem with "First Night" is just with how much time it's taken away from the main story. I always loved the flashbacks on the show, but this is just a little too much all in one big chunk (technically, three big chunks), and it doesn't feel 'organic', like it just naturally fits in there at this particular point in the series. My own opinion is that it would've worked better as one big 70-or-so page issue (probably with about a $10 cover price), and then get right back to the story that's continuing in the 'present day'...

[Brian Lynch]

I didn't know we were doing SPIKE:ATF when I wrote Spike's FIRST NIGHT story.

[themaleslayer]

May 21, 2008 17:18:10 GMT -5 Brian Lynch said:

I didn't know we were doing SPIKE:ATF when I wrote Spike's FIRST NIGHT story.

Wow.

[patxshand]

El Diablo, a 70pg issue would just be a trade paperback.

[wenxina]

May 21, 2008 17:34:10 GMT -5 patxshand said:

El Diablo, a 70pg issue would just be a trade paperback.

I thought that was his point. Just get the First Night events out of the way in one big juicy issue so that we can get back to the real story.
I don't personally mind either way, but I can definitely see the benefits of doing that... no cliffhanger that lasts forever!

[patxshand]

May 21, 2008 17:42:24 GMT -5 wenxina said:

I thought that was his point. Just get the First Night events out of the way in one big juicy issue so that we can get back to the real story.
I don't personally mind either way, but I can definitely see the benefits of doing that... no cliffhanger that lasts forever!

That's not how comics work though. Why just release it as a trade and make 1/4th of the profit when you can release it as three issues and a trade later? It doesn't make sense. IDW has to pay Brian, Joss, the many artists that contributed to First Night, and Chris Ryall. It would be 100% impractical to just release it as a trade.

The "First Night" series is, for me, the ideal way to answer the "What happened after NFA?" question without tampering with the pace of the main arc? If the biggest issue with fans is that they took two and a half months off the story, I say buck up. We waited nearly four years between "Not Fade Away" and "After the Fall." We can wait another 2 1/2 months, especially if it means we'll get short stories in the interim.

[Wyndam]

Personally, I have really enjoyed First Night. Issues 6 and 7 have been my favorite issues thus far. I don't really mind the break in story either, because First Night IS a part of the story. It's something I have wanted to see addressed ever since Angel ended, and so far, I have been thrilled to read each story.

[El Diablo Robotico]

May 21, 2008 17:47:03 GMT -5 patxshand said:

May 21, 2008 17:42:24 GMT -5 wenxina said:

I thought that was his point. Just get the First Night events out of the way in one big juicy issue so that we can get back to the real story.
I don't personally mind either way, but I can definitely see the benefits of doing that... no cliffhanger that lasts forever!

That's not how comics work though. Why just release it as a trade and make 1/4th of the profit when you can release it as three issues and a trade later? It doesn't make sense. IDW has to pay Brian, Joss, the many artists that contributed to First Night, and Chris Ryall. It would be 100% impractical to just release it as a trade.

Then do it as a 3-issue miniseries that runs concurrently with A:AtF, and don't break up the flow of the main story with it. I know in the lettercol at the end of this one or last one Chris Ryall mentioned they considered doing that (or something similar) but decided not to, but I disagree with their choice. Like I said, not only does it leave that 2-month cliffhanger (which I don't really mind too much), but somehow "First Night" just doesn't feel like it 'fits' here, where it's been placed.

I've liked the first two issues of it a lot, but I'm just not crazy about the strategy of its release...

[wenxina]

May 21, 2008 17:47:03 GMT -5 patxshand said:

That's not how comics work though. Why just release it as a trade and make 1/4th of the profit when you can release it as three issues and a trade later? It doesn't make sense. IDW has to pay Brian, Joss, the many artists that contributed to First Night, and Chris Ryall. It would be 100% impractical to just release it as a trade.

The "First Night" series is, for me, the ideal way to answer the "What happened after NFA?" question without tampering with the pace of the main arc? If the biggest issue with fans is that they took two and a half months off the story, I say buck up. We waited nearly four years between "Not Fade Away" and "After the Fall." We can wait another 2 1/2 months, especially if it means we'll get short stories in the interim.

Dude, I get that. And I've made that point before. However, I was just explaining El Diablo Robotico's point. I've got enough stuff to be doing every month that it really doesn't feel that long in between issues anyway.

[Disgruntled Gremlin]

Having re-read my post, I have to apologize for coming off as much grouchier and more critical than I intended. In particular, I apologize for using the phrase "butchered caricatures" -- that was unnecessary.

On with my responses...

ON THE GEORGE SEQUENCE

Patxshand, thanks for your attempts to explain the George sequences. The fact that the vamp is one of those cardboard target thingies never occurred to me -- in retrospect, I can see that the brown shading/lines are intended to clue us in to that. What threw me off is, 1) usually, people throw balls at those, and 2) Douche Lackey is positioned facing away from Spike, who has his arm outstretched making it appear as if he had just hit him, with the body turning to the side (which would make him 3 dimensional). I'm not a big carnival person, but that clears that confusion up. I still don't think that was the clearest way to stage that panel, but I get it.

Your explanation of what's going on with the grabbing is also adequate. I did get that panel 3 was taking place in Douche Lackey's mind, and I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer. It helps that now I've realized in panel 2, the brown lining around DL's head is meant to indicate he's being put in a trance, which makes the sequence much more logical.

What throws me off still is the way panel 5 is staged -- I can see that George is getting pulled back by a suddenly no-longer-entranced Lackey, but I still would have liked to have seen a shot of him emerging from the trance, or even just his shadow coming up behind George to clarify that George THINKS the vamp is out of the way, and does not realize that he has regained his motor function.

I am still not satisfied with the explanation on the final page, however. By the time we've gotten through the Wes and Kate stories, the fact that Douche Lackey had unexpectedly broken from his trance wasn't really coming to mind. And the "lucky freak who was born with power" thing will be explained later, but is still painfully unclear for this four page story. His power is...he can get out of trances easily?

Changing the dialogue in DL's second word bubble to "Your head games are no good on me! Why do you think I got stuck on fish duty while Gunn's out to play?" (to which George would doubtless respond "And here I figured you thought I was puuurdy").

Looking back, I'm also unclear on George's "What are you...?" It doesn't seem like the most logical way to lead into the Slayer sequence. Again, for readers unfamiliar with George's power to look into people's minds, changing their dialogue to:

DL: You're just an annoying blip compared to what Gunn put us through. You have no idea what we've been preparing...
George: Well then why don't I just take a peek...

Give the Slayer panel a swishy bubble border to 100% confirm for those in doubt that this is a sequence George is viewing from DL's memory using his Splenden Beast powers, and my frustrations with the storytelling are moot. In fact, such a border could benefit the carnival panel as well. Wouldn't be a big or complicated change -- perhaps for the Director's Cut?

Yes, I'm sure the webs thing will be explained, but I still find it jarring that George is unwebbed, asking "What are you" then looking at a flashback to comment on the slayer thing, and then webbed, while still commenting on that flashback. Plus, wasn't Douche Lackey just gonna kill George last issue? Why would he re-web him? I'm hoping this will be cleared up in ish 8 -- it doesn't bother me massively, but it certainly takes away from the story.

Also, Pat, the way DL discusses his power on the line doesn't suggest to me that he's talking about his vampire power: he specifically says he was born with it, so now I can only assume it has to do with his resistance to a psychic attack. You can see why I'm unclear on this, yes?

As for the reason I'm disappointed on the Slayer thing here is that it makes a nice plot twist, but doesn't add any thematic meaning. Had it been paralleled with a different sequence, it could have been a moment with much stronger impact.

For instance, Angel's issue 1 monologue about "changing him" and then cutting to the shot of vampire Gunn was so fantastic for me because the final sequence undercuts what Angel is saying while at the same time giving a marvelous plot twist. This lets us know where the main arch is going -- presumably, testing how the people we have watched have been changed by the Sr. Partners mandated predicament, who will become morally compromised, who will stick to their guns, and ultimately, whether or not Angel is right in his assertion that his heroism cannot be taken away from him. Without saying, it was an outstanding plot twist and cliff hanger as well, but the sequence is that much more memorable because it sequentially ties in with the message the book is exploring.

If the slayer thing had been paired with, for instance, Kate's story, a not-unslayerlike figure whose quest for moral clarity has been realized, that would have made the image more interesting to me. Any scene touching on the ideas of ancestry, heroism, soldiers, the female condition, could have transitioned to the slayer cutaway very nicely.

E.g. a character such as Connor commenting on the ancient lineages the white hats have on their side (Angel, Spike, Illyria...) cuts away to the slayers in the basement, which would reveal that the bad side is using just that advantage for their own nefarious unclear purposes.

Then, we obsessive message boarders could spend hours discussing the meaning and connections of those ideas with the Slayer lineage.

Instead, we found out from a fish, which leaves us with not much more to say than "What happens next?" It's not by any means a terrible choice; it's just not the most SPECTACULAR way to introduce a (potentially) very cool concept.

ON THE WESLEY SEQUENCE

To Pat:
I never meant to trash Runge's art: I should make it clear, I really enjoyed it. I was merely observing that his likenesses are a bit uneven, and that my preference would be for a comic-unique, consistent character design rather than more photo-accurate likenesses that may vary by angle in how well they capture a face. Runge is going for the latter, and I get that -- judging by the commentary 'round these parts, that's what most fans are after. I just wanted to throw in my two cents that I prefer the Urru/Jeanty/Messina aesthetic.

My complaint about the Conduit was not a major one, and didn't affect my enjoyment of the story. I'm just not a huge fan of having another faceless speaking voice for W&H, because they're darn near impossible to fight/kill/bring closure to, but at the same time don't feel as formidable as a specific individual (Lilah, Hamilton) because they have no real quirks beside being evil. This incarnation of the conduit, as a femme-fatale type, had quirks -- had a specific entity or individual been used, she/it might have showed up again for another personal encounter with Wesley.

I don't think Lilah appearing their would have been out of character at all. She was the ultimate irredeemable Whedonverse character: "Habeas Corpses," "Calvary," "Salvage," and "Home" told us flat out that Lilah Morgan has ZERO chance for redemption, and that in no circumstances is anything more important to her than Lilah Morgan. She's far from above betraying Wesley ("Slouching"), and particularly after enduring a year in Hell where she was doubtless forced to watch Wes pine for Fred and NOT mourn for her, I think she'd find it hilarious. I'll post an attempt at an alternate Wes/Lilah dialogue for the scene later.

On the feminism thing, I'm gonna disagree with you. Amy looked to me a great deal smaller than shown here: see "Spin the Bottle" for Fred's comments on her (lack of) bosom. I didn't mean for this to be a major complaint either, just a fun observation. Buffy and Angel always played fair with exploitative shots: my point was that thus far, we've had a looot of seductivley posed, minimally clothed ladies in this series, but few panels seem interested in sexualizing the men. The Wes ass shot is the first time I've noticed the art in After the Fall putting particular focus on the awesomeness of the male body (see the way Wes is sitting in the top panel as well), and I just wanted to applaud that.

I think the Wes story was not at all a bad addition to the Angel canon; however, I was not moved to tears. Still, I think you and EDR are spot on that I was playing too harsh with this story: it's really quite nicely done.

KATE

Face cancer? Now who's snickerpussying : )

Dane, I still stand by my criticism of how Connor is treated in this story. Sure, teenagers think about sex, but it does all the great Connor characterization from Angel seasons 3 and 4 to say that the most traumatic thing that happened to him was sleeping with evil Cordy. Teens are obsessed with sex, yes, but not to that extent.

A little dialoguey hyperbole.
Angel: Hey, kiddo. How are those memories coming?
Connor: Not bad. I just found out I'm directly responsible for a few dozen people getting killed, and I almost unrepentently blew a bunch more to bits. But, EW, I slept with Cordelia! How icky is that? I'm gonna have to wash myself for hours! Sorry 'bout that, seriously.

Rings a little false, doesn't it? I need Connor to acknowledge his guilt at SOME point in this series if he's going to be likable. Because a kid that is more horrified by a weird sexual escapade than the fact that he killed people is no Champion in my book. The device of returning all of his memories instantly is problematic, because it's going to make Connor look amoral if he doesn't address this inner turmoil soon.

I'm with EDR on a Connor series -- to me, he has a potential to be a much more intriguing character than the always fun, but well-worn Spike. I'd like to know how a kid got into his current leadership position, how he is protecting his adopted parents (and sister?), how he is dealing with his multiple personalities... in my book, he's far more worthy than Faith for a spin off series. I hope there are plans to incorporate these crucial elements to Connor's character -- it's going to be hard for me to accept him as the same Connor we saw on TV otherwise.

ON FLASHBACKS

EDR, once again, I think you've said exactly what I'm feeling. What made the flashback episodes of the series interesting was not just the flashbacks themselves, but the way they intertwined with the stuff that was going on in that particular episode.

"Fool for Love" wasn't just, "Hey, what was Spike like as a human?" It was a way to address Buffy's fears about her mortality (which in turn, led into her fears for her mother's mortality), as well as to elaborate how the Spike we see today could credibly develop feelings for Buffy, and how her cruelty toward him is genuinely hurtful. It asks questions relevent to the present arc, while explaining delightful tidbits about the past.

Thus far, I still feel like the question at the forefront of First Night is "What happened that night?" Again, while the Betta George story has provided nuggets interesting to the plot, it is thematically unconnected to the stories presented here, which leads me to react with "Okay, that's what happened," a reaction that's largely devoid of new insights to the thematic issues After the Fall and its characters are tackling.

TOO HARSH?

I've gone in depth to explain my problems with Connor's characterization, but I failed to do the same for Spike, Illyria and Lorne for Issue 6. I apologize for that: I'll explains my in-depth thoughts on them later.

AN OPEN LETTER TO BRIAN LYNCH

I envy you. First off, you get to write the continuation to one of the best television series ever, and you get to do it with Joss Whedon and some of the industry's best artists.

More than that, though, I envy your character. You're willing to spend your own time on boards like these to chat with grouchy fans like myself out of your own free will. You wade past a lot of thankless posts, including self-important English majors like me. Maybe you do it to make sure you catch things like "ringing/wringing" for the TPB. But I've got a feeling you do it 'cuz you genuinely want to know what people think of your work, no matter how bitchy, sarcastic, scathing, rambling, idiotic, off-topic, or sexually inappropriate those thoughts might be.

And that is friggin' awesome. Thanks for taking the time, dude. Your job -- to tell a great story -- is already incredibly difficult, but to do it while checking up on a bunch of pain-in-the-ass fanboys and girls on your ass is damn near heroic.

So I hope no matter how many times you here "Can IDW use Buffy characters or not?" or "Why doesn't Angel's face look like on TV?" or "How about if Gunn and Spike and Angel all get the shanshu, and Doyle and Cordy and Drogyn and Miss Calendar all come back from the dead and then Angel and Buffy and Cordy get a polygamous three-way marriage?" you keep visiting forums like this.

And I'll try to play nicer : )

[patxshand]

May 22, 2008 1:41:46 GMT -5 Disgruntled Gremlin said:

ON THE GEORGE SEQUENCE

Patxshand, thanks for your attempts to explain the George sequences. The fact that the vamp is one of those cardboard target thingies never occurred to me -- in retrospect, I can see that the brown shading/lines are intended to clue us in to that. What threw me off is, 1) usually, people throw balls at those, and 2) Douche Lackey is positioned facing away from Spike, who has his arm outstretched making it appear as if he had just hit him, with the body turning to the side (which would make him 3 dimensional). I'm not a big carnival person, but that clears that confusion up. I still don't think that was the clearest way to stage that panel, but I get it.

DisgruntledGremlin, I didn't say he was a cardboard target. I said he was one of those things you hit that bounce back at you. The carnival version of a punching bag.

Your explanation of what's going on with the grabbing is also adequate. I did get that panel 3 was taking place in Douche Lackey's mind, and I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer. It helps that now I've realized in panel 2, the brown lining around DL's head is meant to indicate he's being put in a trance, which makes the sequence much more logical.

The brown lining shows that he has turned into the Punching-Bouncing-Back-Thing.

What throws me off still is the way panel 5 is staged -- I can see that George is getting pulled back by a suddenly no-longer-entranced Lackey, but I still would have liked to have seen a shot of him emerging from the trance, or even just his shadow coming up behind George to clarify that George THINKS the vamp is out of the way, and does not realize that he has regained his motor function.

I disagree. I think that would have bogged this down. Instead, the reader has the same surprise as George that the Lackey is out of the trance.

I am still not satisfied with the explanation on the final page, however. By the time we've gotten through the Wes and Kate stories, the fact that Douche Lackey had unexpectedly broken from his trance wasn't really coming to mind. And the "lucky freak who was born with power" thing will be explained later, but is still painfully unclear for this four page story. His power is...he can get out of trances easily?

Or, as I explained, that he's turned into a vampire and has trained a lot (vs. slayers) to build his power. Or that he had to steal his power (via the orb from Kr'ph). There are many explanations. If it will be explained later, its probably the orb. If not, it's the obvious--that he's a vampire.

Changing the dialogue in DL's second word bubble to "Your head games are no good on me! Why do you think I got stuck on fish duty while Gunn's out to play?" (to which George would doubtless respond "And here I figured you thought I was puuurdy").

....What?

Looking back, I'm also unclear on George's "What are you...?" It doesn't seem like the most logical way to lead into the Slayer sequence. Again, for readers unfamiliar with George's power to look into people's minds, changing their dialogue to:

DL: You're just an annoying blip compared to what Gunn put us through. You have no idea what we've been preparing...
George: Well then why don't I just take a peek...

Give the Slayer panel a swishy bubble border to 100% confirm for those in doubt that this is a sequence George is viewing from DL's memory using his Splenden Beast powers, and my frustrations with the storytelling are moot. In fact, such a border could benefit the carnival panel as well. Wouldn't be a big or complicated change -- perhaps for the Director's Cut?

I doubt Brian will do a Director's Cut of every issue. He'll probably just do a First Night hardcover. But the thing, I'm neither here nor there about the paneling being change. If I had to choose, I'd say leave it the way it is, because from the way the story flows its kinda already clear that it's in the Lackey's mind. See, doing those kind of effects (wonky borders) are the comic version of doing quirky fades, cuts, and zooms on television. They're cheesy--and it is very rare that they'd fit the story enough for them *not* to be cheesy.

Yes, I'm sure the webs thing will be explained, but I still find it jarring that George is unwebbed, asking "What are you" then looking at a flashback to comment on the slayer thing, and then webbed, while still commenting on that flashback. Plus, wasn't Douche Lackey just gonna kill George last issue? Why would he re-web him? I'm hoping this will be cleared up in ish 8 -- it doesn't bother me massively, but it certainly takes away from the story.

You have a good point on the killing issue, but I took it like this, even while reading Issue 6. It was a false threat. He would surely kick George's ass, but not kill him. Because honestly, this dude is more scared of Gunn than he's letting on to.

Also, Pat, the way DL discusses his power on the line doesn't suggest to me that he's talking about his vampire power: he specifically says he was born with it, so now I can only assume it has to do with his resistance to a psychic attack. You can see why I'm unclear on this, yes?

Yeah, so it's more than likely having to do with them getting Kr'ph's orb, then. Remember the panel in #2 where they give the orb to tis writhing, demony mess? Maybe that's something...

As for the reason I'm disappointed on the Slayer thing here is that it makes a nice plot twist, but doesn't add any thematic meaning. Had it been paralleled with a different sequence, it could have been a moment with much stronger impact.

But how do you know it won't have any thematic meaning? This is just the revelation, and it was, what, two panels? C'mon. Asking for a thematic meaning in that is asking for a bit much. Be a bit easier on Team Angel. They'll give you what you want. They just won't rush it.

For instance, Angel's issue 1 monologue about "changing him" and then cutting to the shot of vampire Gunn was so fantastic for me because the final sequence undercuts what Angel is saying while at the same time giving a marvelous plot twist. This lets us know where the main arch is going -- presumably, testing how the people we have watched have been changed by the Sr. Partners mandated predicament, who will become morally compromised, who will stick to their guns, and ultimately, whether or not Angel is right in his assertion that his heroism cannot be taken away from him. Without saying, it was an outstanding plot twist and cliff hanger as well, but the sequence is that much more memorable because it sequentially ties in with the message the book is exploring.

As I was reading your thematic comment, I knew you were going to go there. However, you're not really making much of a point here. Brian had an entire issue to develop the thematic parallel between Gunn and Angel's transformations (as well as Wesleys) and an entire *twenty-six* pages to build up to it. The relevation and Angel's voice over (that gave it its very thematic nature) was sprawled over three pages. The slayer panel was on one page, and the Betta George story as a whole has only been four pages! There is no comparison.

But even then, not ever revelation has to hit home a theme. Sometimes, in any story, there are shocking moments for the sake of having shocking moments. Might there be a theme? Yes, and you're punishing Brian way too early for not establishing one on the spot. Might there not be a theme to the slayer thing? Sure.

As I'm writing this, I'm beginning to think that there already is thematic significance evident in even these two panels. The mere revelation of what's going on introduces a theme that nails home the horror of living in LA-Gone-To-Hell. VAMPIRES are training against SLAYERS. On Earth, slayers train against vampires. However, in Hell-A (from Gunn/Angel being vampire/human, Spike being champion and Angel looking to make his place, Connor being the most level-headed person and Angel being depressed) EVERYTHING seems to have switched roles. That's more than enough of a theme for me for such a tiny revelation.

If the slayer thing had been paired with, for instance, Kate's story, a not-unslayerlike figure whose quest for moral clarity has been realized, that would have made the image more interesting to me. Any scene touching on the ideas of ancestry, heroism, soldiers, the female condition, could have transitioned to the slayer cutaway very nicely.

But that's not ANGEL. That's BtVS. It's just a teensy revelation. Not everything has to be. "Mmmmm this is significant because look what Kate's doing at the same time." It can, and is, significant on its own.

E.g. a character such as Connor commenting on the ancient lineages the white hats have on their side (Angel, Spike, Illyria...) cuts away to the slayers in the basement, which would reveal that the bad side is using just that advantage for their own nefarious unclear purposes.

Wouldn't flow at all, though. Just cut from Connor's story to the Slayer revelation? In what context would it be in? Connor's story happened on the first night. Betta George's story is going on during Issue #5, and there's no way Gunn already had the slayers there during the First Night.

I know what you're saying, in that you're not saying that Connor would *find* the slayers. But still, how would just cutting there flow. How would we even know it's Gunn's basement? In what context would we find out? It just doesn't work that way. However, having Betta George look into the head of the Lackey (a member of a team that has been using him for his powers ever since Issue #1) and use those powers AGAINST him (which it seems, from the solicit, that this will happen in #10) is majorly huge.

Then, we obsessive message boarders could spend hours discussing the meaning and connections of those ideas with the Slayer lineage.

Not really. Again, that's Buffy. It's not what Angel's about, and really had no place here. Betta George finding out and the parallel between the other role reversals in Hell-A is more than enough brain food.

Instead, we found out from a fish, which leaves us with not much more to say than "What happens next?" It's not by any means a terrible choice; it's just not the most SPECTACULAR way to introduce a (potentially) very cool concept.

Believe I've already tackled that.

ON THE WESLEY SEQUENCE

To Pat:
I never meant to trash Runge's art: I should make it clear, I really enjoyed it. I was merely observing that his likenesses are a bit uneven, and that my preference would be for a comic-unique, consistent character design rather than more photo-accurate likenesses that may vary by angle in how well they capture a face. Runge is going for the latter, and I get that -- judging by the commentary 'round these parts, that's what most fans are after. I just wanted to throw in my two cents that I prefer the Urru/Jeanty/Messina aesthetic.

I love Urru and Jeanty also. But if you've seen Messina's old work, I doubt you'd prefer him over Runge.

My complaint about the Conduit was not a major one, and didn't affect my enjoyment of the story. I'm just not a huge fan of having another faceless speaking voice for W&H, because they're darn near impossible to fight/kill/bring closure to, but at the same time don't feel as formidable as a specific individual (Lilah, Hamilton) because they have no real quirks beside being evil.

Okay. But still, that's more of a complaint about the basic mythology of Angel than "First Night."

This incarnation of the conduit, as a femme-fatale type, had quirks -- had a specific entity or individual been used, she/it might have showed up again for another personal encounter with Wesley.

And you know this is the conduit.... how? This was never revealed. We have no idea if this is the conduit or someone else entirely. A while ago, Brian Lynch stated that "After the Fall" would have two big bads. It would appear that this thing parading as Fred as well as the disembodied voice fit that. We just don't know who they are yet.

I don't think Lilah appearing their would have been out of character at all. She was the ultimate irredeemable Whedonverse character: "Habeas Corpses," "Calvary," "Salvage," and "Home" told us flat out that Lilah Morgan has ZERO chance for redemption, and that in no circumstances is anything more important to her than Lilah Morgan.

Fundamentally disagree. Re-watch the last Wes/Lilah exchange in "Home" and see if you'd still argue the same point.

She's far from above betraying Wesley ("Slouching"), and particularly after enduring a year in Hell where she was doubtless forced to watch Wes pine for Fred and NOT mourn for her, I think she'd find it hilarious. I'll post an attempt at an alternate Wes/Lilah dialogue for the scene later.

Could it be? Sure. I just don't think this would happen.

On the feminism thing, I'm gonna disagree with you. Amy looked to me a great deal smaller than shown here: see "Spin the Bottle" for Fred's comments on her (lack of) bosom. I didn't mean for this to be a major complaint either, just a fun observation.

Go to Google and type in "Amy Acker." Maybe add the word Maxim. You'd be surprised how well she fits Runge's panel. The only thing about the FredBoobs we saw in #7 were that they were probably *higher* than hers would be, giving them the appearance of being implanty. However, they had to be this way so her hair could cover them and the comic wouldn't turn into "After the Porn."

Buffy and Angel always played fair with exploitative shots: my point was that thus far, we've had a looot of seductivley posed, minimally clothed ladies in this series, but few panels seem interested in sexualizing the men. The Wes ass shot is the first time I've noticed the art in After the Fall putting particular focus on the awesomeness of the male body (see the way Wes is sitting in the top panel as well), and I just wanted to applaud that.

How about the countless shirtless Angel panels? The Urru cover to #2 with Spike's manbulge on obvious display? Spike being in various stages of undress for the first four issues.

I think the Wes story was not at all a bad addition to the Angel canon; however, I was not moved to tears. Still, I think you and EDR are spot on that I was playing too harsh with this story: it's really quite nicely done.

Yeah, I loved it.

KATE

Face cancer? Now who's snicker[censored!]ing : )

No, I'd still stick to that. Check out the panel when she's driving. Holy crap.

Dane, I still stand by my criticism of how Connor is treated in this story. Sure, teenagers think about sex, but it does all the great Connor characterization from Angel seasons 3 and 4 to say that the most traumatic thing that happened to him was sleeping with evil Cordy.

It wasn't that she was evil. Check out the paneling around that. The traumatic thing was that as soon as he remembered that Cordy was like a motherly figure to him, the very next memory he gets is him sticking it to her. Oedipus moments are quite traumatic.

Teens are obsessed with sex, yes, but not to that extent.

Oh yes they are. lol

A little dialoguey hyperbole.
Angel: Hey, kiddo. How are those memories coming?
Connor: Not bad. I just found out I'm directly responsible for a few dozen people getting killed, and I almost unrepentently blew a bunch more to bits. But, EW, I slept with Cordelia! How icky is that? I'm gonna have to wash myself for hours! Sorry 'bout that, seriously.

Rings a little false, doesn't it? I need Connor to acknowledge his guilt at SOME point in this series if he's going to be likable. Because a kid that is more horrified by a weird sexual escapade than the fact that he killed people is no Champion in my book.

The fundamental understanding that Connor received in "Not Fade Away" was that he wasn't at fault for what he did. It was his circumstances and upbringing that drove him to it, and its that fact that makes him such a chilled out guy.

The device of returning all of his memories instantly is problematic, because it's going to make Connor look amoral if he doesn't address this inner turmoil soon.

He already did. Just not in an Angel way. Which is what made their talk in NFA so interesting. Angel was expecting broody Connor, but Connor was level-headed.

I'm with EDR on a Connor series -- to me, he has a potential to be a much more intriguing character than the always fun, but well-worn Spike. I'd like to know how a kid got into his current leadership position, how he is protecting his adopted parents (and sister?), how he is dealing with his multiple personalities... in my book, he's far more worthy than Faith for a spin off series. I hope there are plans to incorporate these crucial elements to Connor's character -- it's going to be hard for me to accept him as the same Connor we saw on TV otherwise.

I'd rather new cool Connor (which makes sense storywise) than horrible TV Connor, which was annoying on all counts.

ON FLASHBACKS

EDR, once again, I think you've said exactly what I'm feeling. What made the flashback episodes of the series interesting was not just the flashbacks themselves, but the way they intertwined with the stuff that was going on in that particular episode.

"Fool for Love" wasn't just, "Hey, what was Spike like as a human?" It was a way to address Buffy's fears about her mortality (which in turn, led into her fears for her mother's mortality), as well as to elaborate how the Spike we see today could credibly develop feelings for Buffy, and how her cruelty toward him is genuinely hurtful. It asks questions relevent to the present arc, while explaining delightful tidbits about the past.

Thus far, I still feel like the question at the forefront of First Night is "What happened that night?" Again, while the Betta George story has provided nuggets interesting to the plot, it is thematically unconnected to the stories presented here, which leads me to react with "Okay, that's what happened," a reaction that's largely devoid of new insights to the thematic issues After the Fall and its characters are tackling.

It's not thematically unconnected. It's what happened to Betta George in the past. Right now, our heroes are deep into the #5 fight. The Betta George stuff is also a flashback. It's just a flashback that took place later than the others.

TOO HARSH?

I've gone in depth to explain my problems with Connor's characterization, but I failed to do the same for Spike, Illyria and Lorne for Issue 6. I apologize for that: I'll explains my in-depth thoughts on them later.

But how will you explain probles with Illyria's characterization? She's in it for like a page and she doesn't even speak! It's quite a reach to find a problem with the way she was written. Like I said before, we just see her fight. And is that really OOC? Thinking no.

[Rogue]

I don't have the time or attention span to read all of these posts (I think an issue or two of ATF would be released by the time I was done ), but I wanted to comment on one thing I read.

May 20, 2008 3:53:30 GMT -5 Disgruntled Gremlin said:

Mutant Enemy always seemed to recognize that giving fans exactly what they want is dullsville. ... First Night still feels to me like excessive Fanservice -- it answers the questions we've been asking forever, and not much else.

I'm just thinking back to Buffy season 5, or Angel season 2. IN Buffy s5 we were introduced to Dawn, whose identity remained a mystery until a few episodes in. In Angel s2, there was Darla's return, and we weren't sure of that until partway through the season. Joss & co. do answer questions for us, they just don't always answer them right away.

I also think of Firefly, River and her story.

[Secret Scoobie]

May 21, 2008 18:05:14 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

Personally, I have really enjoyed First Night. Issues 6 and 7 have been my favorite issues thus far. I don't really mind the break in story either, because First Night IS a part of the story. It's something I have wanted to see addressed ever since Angel ended, and so far, I have been thrilled to read each story.

I agree with you Wyndam.

I understand where you are coming from Disgruntled Gremlin, but I think you're perhaps expecting a little to much to be the way you want it to be. Not in an offensive way at all.

I think it's important to express yourself and be passionate when you're disappointed but there also needs to be some room for the writers etc to do what they WANT and what they've decided to do for the story.

Can't please everyone I guess.

I trust Bryan and the team, and without being too passive - I take each issue as it comes for what it is and not for what it is not.

I applaud your attention to detail and fanaticism though! Karma.