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Post by faithnspike on Jan 27, 2009 8:08:54 GMT -5
Where I was not a fan of first night I think it was important. I do think it could have been done in one or two issues though. The citizens story although a great idea did not pay off for me. I didn’t care about them and would have been much happier with a Nina first night story. Boy did she end up pointless in the story (unfortunately). Wand Heart also still exists I take it so they still own Wes and Lilah’s soul. And Gunns and Fred’s (assuming doctor sparrow lied and hers still exists). Hope they bring all of them back at some point.
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iloveromy
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Post by iloveromy on Jan 27, 2009 8:44:07 GMT -5
I think it boils down to what your definition of "hype" is. I don't necessarily see it having a negative connotation, especially when it revolves around a fictitious story that people look forward to reading. Isn't Ron Moore and the other people behind BSG a little responsible for hype behind finding out who the final cylons were? I know there may be a difference with those people and the information they tease to the audience interviews. But what I am trying to say is that Brian and/or IDW are responsible for some of the hype considering they are the masterminds. If you are writing it and purposefully delaying information, whether or not the story calls for it right then, then yeah I think you should be part of that hype. Especially when it is a huge revelation about an important character when have invested time and emotions in.
And Pat, yeah you are right about Brian just wanting people to focus on why he was turned over who turned him. BUT for me, I always just figured that the two were rolled into one of equal importance. Having an main character get turned by an insignificant vampire... I credit that to Brian's writing because I think that was pretty new to the Buffyverse.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Jan 27, 2009 13:40:23 GMT -5
Bam. That cracked the whip!
I don't know why everyone complains about the First Night stories. I find the some of the best parts of ATF.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Jan 27, 2009 17:15:43 GMT -5
Maybe I'm using the wrong word. I may not mean hype. What I mean is...waiting practically how many issues 9? 9 months to reveal something...I sorta want a better pay off. It always seemed like Gunn was pissed at Angel for something in the beginning and people just naturally thought it was because Angel or someone Angel knew siring him. But, if Gunn said something to the extent of "Angel wasn't there" or "Angel left me" in the beginning...I would have expected it to be nothing. *shruggers* I never said FIRST NIGHT wasn't important...I just wasn't a fan. And yes, I think it was actually an excellent twist in the story to have Gunn sired by some random vamp...it was just the delay of information. Look at LOST...do you know how many people are going to flip out when the payoff to what's going on is "insignificant and its how we got there that counts." People would be very upset and I will be one of them. Usually, the delay of information is what leads people to hype it up. P.S. Pat I love you.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jan 27, 2009 18:32:01 GMT -5
In a certain way, you could say Angel was the one who sired Gunn, just not literally. Angel left Gunn, and in doing that Gunn was sired. I think Angel leaving his side, and having him get sired by random vampires was more shocking than someone like Angel or Spike doing it. Not having either of them sire him is sort of a slap in the face to Gunn, I think.
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Post by Emmie on Jan 27, 2009 18:43:23 GMT -5
In a certain way, you could say Angel was the one who sired Gunn, just not literally. Angel left Gunn, and in doing that Gunn was sired. I think Angel leaving his side, and having him get sired by random vampires was more shocking than someone like Angel or Spike doing it. Not having either of them sire him is sort of a slap in the face to Gunn, I think. Angel leaving Gunn to die in the alley is an incredibly low moment for his character. Would he have left Connor in the alley at that point in time during NFA? We see how Angel stops everything during #16 to hold Connor during his last moments, literally as hell is a-poppin'. So was it that Connor was more important than Gunn or that Angel had changed from NFA to AtF #16...
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Post by birdandbear on Jan 27, 2009 19:55:32 GMT -5
I think it's a bit unfair to blame Angel for leaving Gunn's side in the alley. He couldn't possibly have known that there vampires lurking out of sight, he was quite reasonably distracted by the Army from hell. As far as he knew, Gunn had a few minutes left before he bled out, minutes that none of them would have had without some kind of drastic intervention. He saw a possible opportunity to preserve them all for a little longer, and he took it. Angel left Gunn behind the line, (such as it was) out of immediate danger, in an effort to keep everybody alive for as long as possible, Gunn included. I have no doubt that if the battle had gone on without interruption, he would have gone straight back to Charles as soon as he was done with the dragon. Angel knew he didn't have much time left, and I think there's no way he would have left his friend to die alone and unremarked while he played hero - despite Gunn's twisted perception of that being exactly what happened. He'd have gone back to be with him at the end, while Spike and Illyria (and hopefully the dragon) kept the horde back.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Jan 27, 2009 20:03:52 GMT -5
Momentarily leaving Gunn's side in the middle of a battle is understandable. Leaving Gunn to rot in a hell dimension for weeks (as in S5) is pretty out of order IMO. Especially since it wasn't even Angel who eventually saved him, but Illyria. How long would Gunn have stayed there if Illyria hadn't decided on a whim to go get him?
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 27, 2009 20:09:48 GMT -5
Momentarily leaving Gunn's side in the middle of a battle is understandable. Leaving Gunn to rot in a hell dimension for weeks (as in S5) is pretty out of order IMO. Especially since it wasn't even Angel who eventually saved him, but Illyria. How long would Gunn have stayed there if Illyria hadn't decided on a whim to go get him? That also kind of shows just how "off mission" Angel got in Season 5. After the Fall was really a giant wake-up call for Angel. Getting the city sent to Hell wasn't exactly his best move (although he didn't know W&H would even do this prior to taking on the Circle), which he of course later correct in #16 (or Gunn corrects, really). In terms of Gunn in the alleyway, we also have to remember that W&H teleported Angel away from the fight when the city was sent to Hell. While Angel could have aided Gunn some before he was teleported away, I think everyone's priorities at that point were to kill as much as they could.
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Post by Emmie on Jan 27, 2009 20:39:02 GMT -5
It's an interesting paradox. Angel had to leave Gunn to go take on the Cordragon and he figured out that the dragon was being controlled. But in doing so, he turned his back on a friend. Gunn wasn't going to last more than a few minutes the last we saw him in NFA, so he really shouldn't have even been in the fight because he was a liability. Someone to be protected rather than able to pull his own weight.
By getting this second chance in #16, friendship becomes the key again. The friendship that Angel turned his back on during the battle because he had to. But it's the friendship he made with Cordragon that enables him to help Gunn this time around. Friends matter. You can't save the world all alone, even if your sacrifice can make a difference. The relationships you build are what keeps the good fight going.
I still view Angel leaving Gunn to go fight as a mistake. It was an unavoidable mistake, but also a commentary on the evil of the situation they had chosen. Tough choices.
Ask yourself, was it heroic for Angel to leave Gunn bleeding on the pavement? Not exactly. It's more complicated than that.
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
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Post by Nicholas on Jan 28, 2009 13:38:11 GMT -5
Really I don't view it as so black and white.
We clearly saw that Gunn had minutes left to live and everyone there thought they were going to die, so why not just do as much damage as you can. Had Angel known they weren't going to die, im damn sure he would've gone back for Gunn.
Besides, you have to take the previous season into account and think about how much Angel had gotten off the path (once again!).
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Post by Emmie on Jan 28, 2009 15:54:36 GMT -5
Had Angel known they weren't going to die, im damn sure he would've gone back for Gunn. Which brings us back to what every hero needs to succeed - hope. Another sign that (as you also say) shows Angel has fallen off the path. A hero protects his friends, believes his cause is just and never compromises. As Lindsey tells us, heroes don't accept the way the world is. They try to change it. Angel accepting that he was going to die in (what he views as) a kamikaze mission means he *does* give up on Gunn's life. And we see in #16 what is the possible end to that battle. But I'm still making the point that symbolically, friendship is what makes the battle in the alley go differently during #16. Friendship with the Dragon making the hell army fried crispy critters and friendship with Gunn motivating Angel to save him and get him to the hospital as soon as possible. That trip to the hospital being another thing made possible by the dragon - aren't they just the most helpful creatures?
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Jan 28, 2009 18:25:07 GMT -5
Good analysis, Emmie!
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Jan 29, 2009 13:20:47 GMT -5
I wonder how exactly the dragons going to fit into Angels life now.
I mean, he can't really park it in his garage.
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rufio
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Post by rufio on Jan 30, 2009 0:16:48 GMT -5
I have been a little behind on Angel- I haven't really been reading it for the past few issues. I'm not really sure why-I think it has to do with the art or something because the story has been really awesome from what I've seen but the art was just so off-putting that it made me mad. But I read this whole issue today and was very impressed! The art was AMAZING and I love where they're taking the story with Angel becoming famous. And even though I thought putting everyone in hell was brilliant, it feels good to be done w/that scenario. I'm curious where the story will go next. Oh and I really have no idea what went down with gwen & connor-is gwen dead??
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Jan 30, 2009 0:35:47 GMT -5
Gwen's alive. Everyone that died in Hell is now alive.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Jan 30, 2009 13:30:36 GMT -5
She was dead, but now she's not. Its this whole thing.
Im really excited to get back to traditional Angel, with the exception that he's famous and all.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 30, 2009 14:11:46 GMT -5
I'm still waiting for mine! I ordered from TFAW and it seems like it's been taking forever. If I would've gotten it today it would've been a day late, but it didn't come today. And now I gotta wait for the weekend to be done! UGH
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Jan 31, 2009 5:58:46 GMT -5
WELL....
1. I thought a brilliant first page with Angel cradling the infant Connor in his arms then the dying adult Connor.
2. Gunn seems to give a grieving Angel a lot of sympathy which is pretty suprising considering.
3. Interesting loophole Wes figures out, step aside Portia
4. So is this goodbye to Wes? For real? It is a great moment between them. Typically Spike has a dig at Angel over the whole gay subtext but I think he calls it right.
5. Great line "Spike, I need you to keep the army back". Oh sure Angel, no probs, just one army, fine!
6. So goodbye Wes and goodbye Fred, forever. But the price is worth it.
7. I wondered how Angel and co defeat WR&H's army this time when they failed the first? But it seems as though the memories of their time in hell give them the extra passion to win
8. Nice line from Spike about another Angel girlfriend ressurected. Let's see, Buffy, Darla and now Cordy the dragon, did I miss any?
9. So WR&H are gone? Hmmmmm. Still, we could always do with more veggie-burgers.
10. The Connor/Angel scene is just great, really brings a tear to your eye
11. So the great reset button has been hit. I'm glad actually, like some big scale action as much as the next guy but I prefer some of the more traditional Angel stories
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iloveromy
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Post by iloveromy on Jan 31, 2009 9:10:22 GMT -5
So I guess Angel is like the Batman of LA? But with no alter ego? I wonder if he'll try out a costume
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