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Post by electrolite on Jun 13, 2009 13:24:59 GMT -5
I've think I'm about done. I am a Buffy, Angel, Dr. Horrible, and Dollhouse fan. This week, I watched Firefly on Hulu and today I watched Serenity. I loved the series and liked the movie. However, I am sick of Joss Whedon killing off my favorite characters. And I'm sick of all of the "true love is doomed" themes in his shows.
Sorry to sound bitter, I am just frustrated.
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zorthrip
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Post by zorthrip on Jun 13, 2009 16:51:00 GMT -5
I understand and share your frustration sometimes.
On the flip side, it is nice to finally have someone who isn't always going to take characters in deadly situations and tack on a "they were miraculously saved" ending. It's just as equally frustrating for me when writers are unwilling let characters go every so often. If art is to imitate life, death and loss are a part of it effects all involved, sometimes drastically.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 13, 2009 16:59:16 GMT -5
I understand and share your frustration sometimes. On the flip side, it is nice to finally have someone who isn't always going to take characters in deadly situations and tack on a "they were miraculously saved" ending. It's just as equally frustrating for me when writers are unwilling let characters go every so often. If art is to imitate life, death and loss are a part of it effects all involved, sometimes drastically. Yeah, I'm kind of the opposite too. I hate it when producers/writers are reluctant to let some characters go because they don't want to upset the fans. They have to take some risks sometimes! What I hate the most is when they kill off characters just because the actor has decided to leave the show. It really cheapens their deaths since you can totally see it coming and it's rarely well written because it's rushed.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jun 13, 2009 17:04:35 GMT -5
Do I detect a subtle smack at House? I'm with these guys - I'm as big a Heroes fan as can be found, but at some point they will run out of excuses to bring certain characters back. Joss's shows are among the very few that actually depict life and death with a sense of respect - he always talks about earning the deaths he eventually writes (case in point: Anya). I'll take that over cheap thrills (Heroes, Lost, and the cheap shot in House's fifth season) any day.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 13, 2009 17:12:42 GMT -5
Do I detect a subtle smack at House? I'm with these guys - I'm as big a Heroes fan as can be found, but at some point they will run out of excuses to bring certain characters back. Joss's shows are among the very few that actually depict life and death with a sense of respect - he always talks about earning the deaths he eventually writes (case in point: Anya). I'll take that over cheap thrills (Heroes, Lost, and the cheap shot in House's fifth season) any day. I don't watch House... I was actually thinking about Desperate Housewives. On that show they will never dare to kill one of the main characters and the only time they did the past season everybody had known for months before the episode aired. Heroes is ridiculous too. The characters just can't seem to stay dead, to a point where you don't give a damn anymore when one of them dies.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jun 13, 2009 17:20:00 GMT -5
I don't watch House... I was actually thinking about Desperate Housewives. On that show they will never dare to kill one of the main characters and the only time they did the past season everybody had known for months before the episode aired. Heroes is ridiculous too. The characters just can't seem to stay dead, to a point where you don't give a damn anymore when one of them dies. House spoilers: Seriously you don't watch House? I could have sworn that whole line was about Kal Penn leaving to work for Obama, so they just tossed Kutner via suicide. It was heartbreaking but also ridiculous. As for the "true love" complaint of the original poster, well... I could probably rant for hours about it, but all I have is Eve's last comment to Lindsey in Angel 5x22 "Not Fade Away": "We don't live in a fairy tale." (I'm trying to talk about Firefly but it's kinda hard. D'you think maybe this thread should be otherwheres than the Firefly forum?)
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zorthrip
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Post by zorthrip on Jun 13, 2009 18:35:22 GMT -5
(I'm trying to talk about Firefly but it's kinda hard. D'you think maybe this thread should be otherwheres than the Firefly forum?) It started because of Firefly. This is one of those situations where there is only so much Firefly material to pull from, so we find ourselves comparing it to other things. Damn FOX and their being stupid.
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bitca
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Post by bitca on Jun 14, 2009 23:40:35 GMT -5
Considering you've seen BtVS, Angel, Dr Horrible, Dollhouse, Firefly/Serenity already....what else left is there to "give up" on? Anyways, I consider myself a BtVS fan, but not really a JW fan. BtVS is definitely my favorite show, and I did find Firefly entertaining....but I don't really enjoy his other works (Angel, Dr Horrible, Dollhouse, his comics except for Fray).
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Post by enigmaticmrwu on Jun 15, 2009 13:47:44 GMT -5
My impression of Joss is that he feels that all the tension and the drama is expended in getting to the point of two characters getting together, and that afterwords there just aren't many interesting stories to tell. I don't think that necessarily has to be the case. For example, how did John McClain meet Holly Genaro? Why would a business woman on the fast track to corporate success marry a New York City detective. How did having children affect there relationship? What did he do when she moved to California. There's a whole story there that could be told, but if you end things right after they get together, you never get to the good part of the story. How far will a man go to protect his family? I think there are many good stories out there set in every stage of a relationship. The getting there is a very compelling part, but it's not the only interesting one.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jun 15, 2009 14:05:51 GMT -5
I think he already dealt with that in Angel Season Three.
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Post by Midnight Butterfly on Jun 15, 2009 15:43:26 GMT -5
Nooooooooooooooooo never give up on God
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 15, 2009 17:27:39 GMT -5
I'm pretty sick of it too. Ironically, it wasn't Serenity that did it for me (in fact, I think he pussed out on the death count in that), but with Buffy Season 8 and Xander's new girlfriend, it's becoming a joke.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 15, 2009 18:16:48 GMT -5
Hey... Simon/Kaylee (Silee?) are still alive and possibly getting it on in greasy hangars. And Mal/Inara (Manara?) are still doing their little foxtrot of flirtation.
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Post by electrolite on Jun 15, 2009 20:38:25 GMT -5
I strongly agree, life isn't a fairy tale but the doomed true love theme is getting old. True, he left us with the Mal/Inara, Kaylee/Simon, and Kennedy/Willow type scenarios but those seem so...I can't think of a word to describe it... but honestly I didn't feel any of those relationships seemed real. If he wants realism, why does he leave us with these relationships that seem so forced.
Anyway, I rewatched some of Firefly and really enjoyed it. I think it out ranks Dollhouse. Shame it was cancelled.
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bitca
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Post by bitca on Jun 15, 2009 23:24:24 GMT -5
Actually the Mal/Inara thing...I think after the show ended, it was revealed at a convention that Inara's secret was that she was dying. Another tragic romance
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Post by drgreenevil on Jun 16, 2009 13:54:45 GMT -5
I don't watch House... I was actually thinking about Desperate Housewives. On that show they will never dare to kill one of the main characters and the only time they did the past season everybody had known for months before the episode aired. Heroes is ridiculous too. The characters just can't seem to stay dead, to a point where you don't give a damn anymore when one of them dies. House spoilers: Seriously you don't watch House? I could have sworn that whole line was about Kal Penn leaving to work for Obama, so they just tossed Kutner via suicide. It was heartbreaking but also ridiculous. As for the "true love" complaint of the original poster, well... I could probably rant for hours about it, but all I have is Eve's last comment to Lindsey in Angel 5x22 "Not Fade Away": "We don't live in a fairy tale." (I'm trying to talk about Firefly but it's kinda hard. D'you think maybe this thread should be otherwheres than the Firefly forum?) On the House thing. I don't think Kutner committing suicide was that far fetched and cheap. I have heard many stories of people that seemed just happy and dandy one day and killed themselves the next. Things like that you can never really know. I'm gonna say it... On the Whedon worship, I really don't get it. Yes, he is a very imaginative and creative person. But if he is just that good and "craps gold" as some people have said, how come he only has one truly successful franchise to his name ?
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Post by lightandmagic on Jun 17, 2009 0:33:50 GMT -5
I'm gonna say it... On the Whedon worship, I really don't get it. Yes, he is a very imaginative and creative person. But if he is just that good and "craps gold" as some people have said, how come he only has one truly successful franchise to his name ? Well I'm assuming you're counting Buffy/Angel and all spinoffs thereof as one franchise, as Angel was succesful as well (got the highest ratings on its network I believe). Dr. Horrible, I believe, is relatively successful as well. It's incredibly popular considering it was born from just the internet. I don't really know how to check it's popularity just internet wise, but it's sold pretty well. Firefly was never all that successful, because I hate to be cliche, but the network really did screw it over. They put a new sci-fi show on fridays, aired the episodes out of order, and delayed episodes a couple of times, making it infrequent, as well as little advertising. It all adds up to no viewers. The fact that it sold as many DVDs as it did is quite an accomplishment. It also has incredibly high ratings from critics everywhere, which I think stands for something. Dollhouse isn't really successful either, but it has time. I don't think it will really grow (viewership wise), but you never know. If you think of how many franchises he has made, it's not really all that much, there's Buffy/Angel (both successful), Firefly (pretty much doomed not to be from the beginning), Dr. Horrible (successful I think), and Dollhouse (which we can't say for sure yet considering it's still going). So three out of five? Seems like a good record to me. This isn't even including some of his other work, such as his run on Astonishing X-Men which I haven't read (as I don't really read comic books), but had high critical praise from nearly every source. And I hate to be lame, but hundreds of artists never had their work recognized while alive, yet are immensely popular nowadays and considered geniuses. I honestly don't think success in the entertainment industry really shows off how good you are at writing, or whatever. So many crappy TV shows are incredibly popular, and have maintained a very successful run, despite how poorly written they are (According to Jim comes to mind immediately). I also think of a lot of literature, there's tons of series that don't have the greatest writers yet are incredibly popular just because they reach a certain audience or what have you. Hate to sound like a crazed fanboy, as I definitely think Joss Whedon has made mistakes with his work, and the doomed love theme he puts up constantly is getting veryyyy tiresome, but I don't think it's fair to critique him on the popularity of his work. It's perfectly fair to critique him on the quality of his work, but most definitely not on the popularity. As popularity does not equal quality.
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Reluctant Hero
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Post by Reluctant Hero on Jun 18, 2009 12:35:31 GMT -5
I really feel like that sometimes too. I wish Joss Whedon could let his characters be happy once in a while. I mean sometimes it seems like they're either miserable or they're dead.
Not that I'd stop watching ;-P
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Post by drgreenevil on Jun 18, 2009 13:40:18 GMT -5
In response to lightandmagic because quoting the whole thing just seemed unnecessary.
Call my cynical and pessimistic, but in today's hollywood, its popularity not quality that networks and studios want. (Look at tv and movies. How much bad quality crap is on there because its pop.) Its right now, not a few years from now.
And if I gave a list of the things you listed to my friends. More than likely they would only know Buffy.
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Johanne
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Post by Johanne on Jun 19, 2009 6:56:28 GMT -5
I know how you feel. It is frustrating. But like others have said, I'm glad that he takes chances like that, and kills off popular characters. But it can be done too much, he doesn't have to do it with every show, all the time. I'm not about to give up on him, though
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