trunkstheslayer
Potential Slayer
Bad day. Started bad, stayed that way.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 188
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Post by trunkstheslayer on Jun 19, 2009 15:54:13 GMT -5
Serenity isn't exactly a fair call. He said from the start: Movie=bigger stakes. The premise in Serenity made it that much more likely that deaths were going to occur. He and Tudyk talked at some point, according to the commentary on the movie, and they both felt it was the logical thing for Wash rather than have him be extraneous for the rest of the film. Just saying.
As for happy couples at the end of his works: Mal/Inara...sorta. Simon/Kaylee Willow/Kennedy Beast and what'shername in AXM I forget if there's anything else. Were Scott and Emma still together at AXM's end? Oh, and Karolina/Xavin in Runaways. The man loves the lesbians apparently. Yea, some of the deaths are just, heh, overkill but most of them are earned and critical.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jun 19, 2009 20:47:51 GMT -5
Joss says in the Chosen commentary that he thought at least one of his main characters should end in a good, happy relationship. Makes sense considering all that happens in the final battle.
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Post by dragonweaver on Jun 19, 2009 21:39:23 GMT -5
Too bad he had to pick the least favorite BTVS couple to leave happy.
Personally I do think Joss has killed off one too many characters. I can see the value and dramatic impact in killing off a character, especially one that is well liked, but at some point one starts to wonder if he is using death as an easy way to shake things up. Life is dynamic and hard and interesting...even without the pain of losing a loved one. Relationships can be difficult and dramatic and entertaining without the couple breaking up.
A great writer can write out a favorite character or break up a beloved couple and make it hurt...I think Joss' next big task will be proving that he can shake things up and make his stories interesting without killing people or ruining couples to do it.
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Post by Emmie on Jun 19, 2009 23:02:21 GMT -5
I can understand the criticism against Joss for killing off characters and obviously there's a deliberate calculation there. But from another perspective, it's more realistic that people facing these kinds of horrors would die after a few years. The idea that they'd survive, always triumphing unscathed is the unrealistic fictional expectation.
If you're watching Saving Private Ryan, are you not expecting the storm on the beach of Normandy to be a complete bloodbath? If you're battling the forces of evil for years, day in, day out are you realistically expecting yourself and all your friends to survive?
I think it all comes down to expectations. And when is enough going to enough. What's going to make fans finally happy? Tara never dying? Anya never dying? Jenny never dying? Joyce never dying? Buffy never dying...twice?
It's averaging one supporting character dying each year. The incredible thing is that Xander, Willow and Giles have not been in serious peril more during the latter seasons.
BUFFY isn't a show where the antagonists are trying to ruin your reputation or steal your boyfriend. They're trying to kill the protagonists. That's always been understood since the very first season. Should we really gasp at the fact that sometimes the villains get in a few lucky punches compared to all the times Buffy and the Scoobies beat them down? Or should good always triumph with no fatalities and evil always lose with a complete annihilation of their forces?
Joss created a fantasy universe with life and death situations in every episode. Sometimes people die. The realism of Joyce's death shows the power of this storytelling. I can't imagine taking back Jenny's death, Joyce's or Buffy's. I imagine Anya wouldn't have died if it hadn't been the finale, but who knows? As for Tara, clearly there are a lot of people who would take that back, but I personally wouldn't.
Again, the real surprise here is that Giles, Willow and Xander haven't been more seriously maimed or killed. Xander lost an eye, true. Willow got too deep into the magics. But we've never really seen them have such a serious brush with death as Faith for instance who Buffy gutted in Graduation Day pt 1 and she was then put in a coma.
Where did the fans get the idea that the characters should be safe in risking their lives against demons, vampires and evil itself? Isn't that the more unrealistic expectation than Joss going easy on everybody?
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 19, 2009 23:09:03 GMT -5
As Emmie put it, we should be glad Xander, Willow and Giles (main cast) made it thru all these years. The fact they survived everything so far proves that she show is not "entirely" realistic and Joss is not willing to do the worse...
I can't imagine the fans' reactions if Willow or Xander had ever died... Considering the outrage we got after Tara's death, Willow's death would have caused an earthquake.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jun 20, 2009 5:04:46 GMT -5
Aye, I think back again to the Chosen commentary, Joss says in half-jest "It's not a real battle without casualties" - that's why there's the D&D scene the night before, to show Amanda and Anya one last time before they die heroically in the true final battle. Joss isn't as concerned with the who that dies so much as the why. Sometimes it's to serve the true feeling of an epic battle, and sometimes it's for character development. Think back to ANGEL too - Fred's death/Illyria's resurrection and then Wesley's death in the finale, with Gunn well on the way. The only people who actually survived that final day Before the Fall were the superhumans - Angel and Spike being ensouled vampires and Illyria being an Old One. (Gunn gets ten memorable minutes before he gets turned. )
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Silum
Innocent Bystander
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Posts: 9
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Post by Silum on Jul 5, 2009 6:53:31 GMT -5
I've think I'm about done. I am a Buffy, Angel, Dr. Horrible, and Dollhouse fan. This week, I watched Firefly on Hulu and today I watched Serenity. I loved the series and liked the movie. However, I am sick of Joss Whedon killing off my favorite characters. And I'm sick of all of the "true love is doomed" themes in his shows. Sorry to sound bitter, I am just frustrated. Yea, I always thought Joss didn't really know how to 'end'. Death was his only choice, and to make things worse, he did it under the guise of 'love is doomed'. I think its more that Joss thinks open ended storytelling is doomed
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Post by PJ on Jul 5, 2009 7:20:47 GMT -5
joss whedon genius, I will NEVER give up on him!!!!!
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Post by CowboyGuy on Jul 5, 2009 14:23:38 GMT -5
I've think I'm about done. I am a Buffy, Angel, Dr. Horrible, and Dollhouse fan. This week, I watched Firefly on Hulu and today I watched Serenity. I loved the series and liked the movie. However, I am sick of Joss Whedon killing off my favorite characters. And I'm sick of all of the "true love is doomed" themes in his shows. Sorry to sound bitter, I am just frustrated. Yea, I always thought Joss didn't really know how to 'end'. Death was his only choice, and to make things worse, he did it under the guise of 'love is doomed'. I think its more that Joss thinks open ended storytelling is doomed Not to say he is right, but if I were a writer/creator of something like Buffy. I wouldn't leave anything open-ended either. I like how J.K Rowling ended the Harry Potter series. Now, my peeve with Joss is that lately it seems like all we do is predict who is going to die. That doesn't make for enjoyment of the characters or the story, since we're always just thinking about who he'll kill next. I don't bother caring about new characters since I think that eventually they'll just end up dead. Like Renee. I like how in Dollhouse no one really has died. "November" died as a character, but the person (whoever she is) lives on. I think it's a neat twist to Joss' formula. I think it would be more surprising if no one died for once...Big Bad included! Can the bad guy never simply get away?
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jul 5, 2009 17:59:16 GMT -5
*glances over at avatar* <_< >_> *walks away whistling a happy tune*
In Buffy Season Eight? It's high stakes battle, and there's still the mystery identity of Twilight to deal with. Actually, I don't feel this at all. Especially after reading the Q&As with Jeanty and Scott Allie, I get the feeling that Joss has something really big up his sleeves that isn't just a major character death. That, plus the Twilight mystery, makes me super-excited.
Overall, I haven't seen much discussion here about "zomg who dies next lololololololol" - the minute we start doing that, we walk into Heroes or Lost territory... and to me, that isn't a good place to be, storywise.
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Silum
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 9
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Post by Silum on Jul 6, 2009 19:45:53 GMT -5
Hmmm, maybe giving up on open ended 'characters' would be more accurate. To be fair though, he did allow us Oz for which I am thankful.
Obviously Joss knows what he is doing, but I would still criticise his excessive use of the death card for season enders/ plot progression.
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Post by lightandmagic on Jul 6, 2009 23:54:29 GMT -5
I agree with CowboyGuy essentially. I love Joss Whedon and think that he's a brilliant writer, but when even your biggest fans are predicting who you plan to kill off first you know that you've written essentially a cliche. I think the problem is mostly not in the fact that he's killing off characters but rather in the fact that you know when it's going to happen the majority of the time.
I understand that characters need to die, they are fighting a supernatural war, people will die. It's the fact that it always happens after a character has become their happiest that it's just become a little bit tiresome.
And as much as you love Joss Whedon you cannot deny that the large majority of the time he has killed off characters right after a happy moment in their life, where they have reached a major peak in joy. I could understand it once or twice but when you do it almost every time it's just a little bit - blah.
But I still love you Joss.
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Post by faithswatcher on Jul 22, 2009 20:01:09 GMT -5
I cannot believe i could not see Penny's death coming, I was truly shocked. Renee's death in the Buffy comics is I hope the last time he pulls the "true love is doomed", I saw the Renee death coming, but I think it was mainly to show us, his fans that the comics can be just as hard hitting as his real actor shows. And thats it, I hope Renee was the last one.... However, I wouldn't mind seeing Ballard die. (I know i didnt mention firefly, but i want to share my thoughts on the topic)
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Post by wytchcroft on Jul 22, 2009 20:40:18 GMT -5
The death in Serenity was a mistake and you can hear it in Whedon's commentary, his essential reasoning that one death imperils the others in the viewers eyes is sound, but then he goofs completely in the choice of victim since the character this has the most effect on doesn't go anywhere with it; just from kick ass to kick more ass.
Renee's death was strained because there's been no mention of it since and the character herself had previously just been the target for Dracula's jokes about her sex and ethnicity - which ticked me off royally.
BUT, and although even the media has picked up the whole 'killed by joss' idea, it has to be said that mostly he's been on the ball and shocked viewers for a definite reason, as well as introducing death not just to shake up characters but to radically move them within the narratives of a show.
Joss CAN be a cold b**stard though. He has pointed out that he only put Tara in the credits for BTVS when he killed her because that was something he always wanted to do (he originally planned it with Jessie) and the 'fun' of that idea kind of nerdishly overode the reality of where Tara was in the show by that point and where the audience was at with Tara.
Although (as with Serentity) the backlash was often just crazed.
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nagpo
Common Vampire
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Posts: 60
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Post by nagpo on Aug 20, 2009 22:25:06 GMT -5
He does that and then kills buffy like three times and always brings her back to life. Joss is somewhat predictable, the main character will never permanently die and the hopelessly in love or the most like able person will die. And that person is never the star of the show. You know what he should do in dollhouse? Just kill echo. Get rid of eliza. I'd never see it coming(mostly).
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nagpo
Common Vampire
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Posts: 60
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Post by nagpo on Aug 20, 2009 22:31:33 GMT -5
As Emmie put it, we should be glad Xander, Willow and Giles (main cast) made it thru all these years. The fact they survived everything so far proves that she show is not "entirely" realistic and Joss is not willing to do the worse... I can't imagine the fans' reactions if Willow or Xander had ever died... Considering the outrage we got after Tara's death, Willow's death would have caused an earthquake. Characters like Gunn and Xander are really the ones that should have died. No way does an average human survive that many battles with demons. At least Gunn gets turned into a vampire, he's atleast more interesting that way. However, Xander is just a boring charcater now. Pairing him with the jar-jar of the series is proof of that(Dawn). Joss should make those two fall in love and kill them both off.
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nagpo
Common Vampire
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Posts: 60
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Post by nagpo on Aug 20, 2009 22:37:33 GMT -5
I understand that characters need to die, they are fighting a supernatural war, people will die. It's the fact that it always happens after a character has become their happiest that it's just become a little bit tiresome. And as much as you love Joss Whedon you cannot deny that the large majority of the time he has killed off characters right after a happy moment in their life, where they have reached a major peak in joy. I could understand it once or twice but when you do it almost every time it's just a little bit - blah. But I still love you Joss. I still enjoy joss work to. Thats true for the most part, characters dying when their the happiest. Except For Wesley, in which that character was sad and prepared to die. Ya know, his love had been killed. And sorry for posting a lot at once. Just have a lot to say:)
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The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
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Post by The Night Lord on Aug 21, 2009 1:39:33 GMT -5
So when you post a lot like that, use the edit button so it's all in one, nice big post, not three posts one after the other after the other. Just letting you know, that's all. Mods can be a little touchy about it
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