Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
|
Post by Hallow Thorn on Sept 10, 2009 22:43:07 GMT -5
That's good, I will try another store tomorrow then, so just a bad bunch sent out?
|
|
Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
|
Post by Paul on Sept 11, 2009 13:56:36 GMT -5
So I bought this yesterday and read it in it's entirety for the first time; I must say, I think people are way too harsh on this story. There are legitimate problems sure, some awkward characterisation and generally shoddy artwork, but the story itself isn't bad. For me, this felt a lot like an early episode of the TV show in tone and pacing, which might be part of the problem. Imagine one of the less impressive season one episodes; you don't mind it as an episode, but dragged out for four months as a comic book with bad art, and it's not as tolerable. I actually liked the Potentates as a concept. We've never really seen traditional angels in the Buffyverse before and it was interesting. I liked their narrow-minded, almost bigoted attitude toward good and evil and how that didn't mesh at all with Angel's grey area values. James is a cool character, although he could have used a little more backstory, and I hope future writers develop him. He has great potential as a member of Angel Investigations, but I have a feeling he and Dez will get sweeped under the rug and forgotten about. Speaking of Dez, she was a tad Mary Sue-ish at first, but I like the tragedy of her clinging onto her humanity and trying to prove she's not an animal. Like James, she has long-term potential that we'll probably never see fulfilled. I've said before that I like the new AI team, or rather the attempt to build a new AI team. Characterisation and relationships need to be fine-tuned, but I'd like to see this roster continued, along with the church base. Story-wise, the animals-turning-into-humans plot was dull and didn't really go anywhere. They implied that it would be followed up later, but that'll never happen now Kelly Armstrong's gone. This is the problem with having rotating writers and no Joss-style executive producer - no long-term plan. As I was saying earlier, I think the animal story would have been an acceptable monster-of-the-week plot on the show, but stretched out over four months, it just wasn't worth it. The Minority Report-style story with the Potentates was much better, and tied nicely into the recent Shanshu revelation for Angel. Combined with Demon Lords and Angel-is-famous sub-plots, I'd say this was an acceptable follow-up story to After the Fall. The execution should have been better, but the story was sound. Criticisms: The artwork is really unimpressive. Considering the artistic talent IDW have had on previous Angel comics (Urru, Mooney, Messina, Byrne), this just doesn't cut it. It's not as downright awful as Runge's (who's covers here are quite nice) work on AtF but it's still poor. Even Stephen Mooney has poked fun at Kate's godawful character design, which might be bitchy if it wasn't so true. The dialogue and characterisation lacks the usual Angel polish, which often makes it feel like a badly-researched tie-in comic rather than a legitimate part of canon. To summarise, this is like a mediocre episode of the show. Not as bad as people say, but nothing to write home about. 5/10. I picked mine up today, it looked nice, I had some lunch at McDonald because I couldn’t wait to get home and read it, lucky because it looks like a total recall.... they all had blue stains on the pages from the book mark, I when to two comic book stores, and they had same problem (I passed going to two others because they all would have been the same.) I hope they sent out replacements, would this effect the sales in the end? Yeah, mine had the stains. If it was an After the Fall book, I might be annoyed, but it's only Aftermath so I don't care that much.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 11, 2009 14:23:05 GMT -5
which often makes it feel like a badly-researched tie-in comic rather than a legitimate part of canon. Pssst...there's a very good reason it feels that way. That said, I agree with most of your comments. The behavior of the Potentates and angels really called into question whether "the forces of good" are actually that, or just another team of arrogant powers trying to manipulate humanity for their own ends. In that respect, I think it tracked quite well with the directions Joss is going with the Angel mega-arc. My assessment of "Aftermath" is that it was adequate for what it was. It's when people try to hammer this square peg of a story into the round hole of "canon" that the trouble really starts. Continuing issue numbers do not canon make, as much as IDW would like you to think so.
|
|
Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
|
Post by Paul on Sept 11, 2009 15:03:23 GMT -5
which often makes it feel like a badly-researched tie-in comic rather than a legitimate part of canon. Pssst...there's a very good reason it feels that way. That said, I agree with most of your comments. The behavior of the Potentates and angels really called into question whether "the forces of good" are actually that, or just another team of arrogant powers trying to manipulate humanity for their own ends. In that respect, I think it tracked quite well with the directions Joss is going with the Angel mega-arc. My assessment of "Aftermath" is that it was adequate for what it was. It's when people try to hammer this square peg of a story into the round hole of "canon" that the trouble really starts. Continuing issue numbers do not canon make, as much as IDW would like you to think so. Ha! Yeah, I agree, but just because it's not canon doesn't mean it can't feel canon. Some of Brian Lynch's books have shaky canonicity, but they still feel professionally done. I agree that Aftermath and other post-17 stories aren't canon (or fully canon, at least) and I resent IDW's patronising attempt to make us think they are. I'm fine with them making the franchise their own, but they should acknowledge the difference between their stuff and Joss' stuff.
|
|
Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
|
Post by Hallow Thorn on Sept 11, 2009 17:08:07 GMT -5
I also thought it was a bit like the early episodes and also early Comics and that is a positive for me... That's to bad about the stains, I didn't want to keep mine because I know it will piss me off for the rest of my comic book life, well my life. Pat said that he's was fine so I'm still trying to get a hold of one.
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Sept 12, 2009 11:42:53 GMT -5
. I agree that Aftermath and other post-17 stories aren't canon (or fully canon, at least) and I resent IDW's patronising attempt to make us think they are. I'm fine with them making the franchise their own, but they should acknowledge the difference between their stuff and Joss' stuff. So.....what's the difference between canon and *fully canon*. That's just bringing the whole canon debate to a really silly level. I dont see how IDW is being patronising. They are continuing the story. Why shouldnt they use continuing numbers? The Angel story is continuing. Whether you think it 'counts' or not. I didnt enjoy Aftermath much either. but I am not going to dismiss it like I would not dismiss an bad episode of the TV show.
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Sept 12, 2009 19:46:22 GMT -5
I resent IDW's patronising attempt to make us think they are. It's not patronizing. And it's not an attempt to trick anyone. They're just continuing their storyline, and to them, to me, and to many others... it's canon, and it counts. As we've both said ad nauseum, there is stuff to support both views. To you, it's obviously not canonical, but to call what IDW is doing a "patronizing attempt" is just kinda silly.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Sept 12, 2009 21:37:30 GMT -5
Maybe there's a bright side here with the bookmarks. Did the stains possibly improve the art? Is Hulksmash!Angel now blue instead of green?
It's almost like cruel poetry that it happened to the Aftermath HCs. Like it wasn't already bad enough, now you've got ink stains to contend with.
/end regularly scheduled rant against Aftermath by the unimpressed reader of Emmie, brought to you by SlayAlive - tip your server
|
|
Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
|
Post by Hallow Thorn on Sept 12, 2009 23:42:19 GMT -5
Lol... I am just happy it is only Aftermath - HC and not the others.
|
|
Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
|
Post by Paul on Sept 13, 2009 0:53:58 GMT -5
I agree that Aftermath and other post-17 stories aren't canon (or fully canon, at least) and I resent IDW's patronising attempt to make us think they are. I'm fine with them making the franchise their own, but they should acknowledge the difference between their stuff and Joss' stuff. So.....what's the difference between canon and *fully canon*. That's just bringing the whole canon debate to a really silly level. Well, some stuff is "more" canon than others. Stuff like S8, AtF, Fray etc., that's all "fully canon" as I'm calling it. But what about Spike: Asylum? Joss has praised that story, and it's been explicitly referenced in AtF. It's not quite canon in it's own right, but it's definitely more canon than something like Angel: Old Friends. I dont see how IDW is being patronising. They are continuing the story. Why shouldnt they use continuing numbers? The Angel story is continuing. Whether you think it 'counts' or not. I didnt enjoy Aftermath much either. but I am not going to dismiss it like I would not dismiss an bad episode of the TV show. I resent IDW's patronising attempt to make us think they are. It's not patronizing. And it's not an attempt to trick anyone. They're just continuing their storyline, and to them, to me, and to many others... it's canon, and it counts. As we've both said ad nauseum, there is stuff to support both views. To you, it's obviously not canonical, but to call what IDW is doing a "patronizing attempt" is just kinda silly. They're entitled to continue the story, and I'm enjoying their continuation, but they're equating their own material with Joss' official continuation, which is dishonest. After the Fall and Aftermath are not the same series, AtF was a finite, canonical mini-series by Joss Whedon and Aftermath was basically an ongoing spin-off that came later. IDW are continuing the numbering because they know how important Joss' influence is to sales, and they think if they blur the lines enough, people will keep buying the series. It's working too, because I've seen a lot of people saying "oh, it must be canon because it's the same numbering". What they should have done was let After the Fall run it's 17 issue course (plus Epilogue), then release the new series starting with #1.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Sept 13, 2009 1:01:44 GMT -5
Paul, just wanted to let you know I'm nodding right along with you.
|
|
Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
|
Post by Paul on Sept 13, 2009 1:11:12 GMT -5
Paul, just wanted to let you know I'm nodding right along with you. Thank you, much appreciated!
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Sept 13, 2009 1:54:04 GMT -5
Maybe there's a bright side here with the bookmarks. Did the stains possibly improve the art? Is Hulksmash!Angel now blue instead of green? It's almost like cruel poetry that it happened to the Aftermath HCs. Like it wasn't already bad enough, now you've got ink stains to contend with./end regularly scheduled rant against Aftermath by the unimpressed reader of Emmie, brought to you by SlayAlive - tip your server As much as I disagree with Paul, who you agree with... this, I actually agree with ahaha.
|
|
Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
|
Post by Hallow Thorn on Sept 13, 2009 1:59:39 GMT -5
I agree, but they are a business so....you know, money.
|
|
Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
|
Post by Paul on Sept 13, 2009 11:04:46 GMT -5
As much as I disagree with Paul... Even if you disagree about the numbering, do you not at least recognise that Aftermath is "less" canon than After the Fall? I admit, I sort of count Aftermath in the sense that I think it "happened" in the Buffyverse (hey, Angel must be doing something with his time). But to treat it with equal importance to Joss Whedon's series like AtF and S8, to me, cheapens the canonicity of those titles. Part of what made AtF different to other tie-in comics was the involvement of the series creator. If anyone can pick the series up, and have it still be canon, then what was so special about AtF? I'm happy for Aftermath to exist - hey, I'm one of the few people here with something nice to about it - but I hold AtF on a higher pedestal. I agree, but they are a business so....you know, money. I admit it was a good business decision on their part. It still f***ing annoys me though.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Sept 13, 2009 12:26:16 GMT -5
Maybe there's a bright side here with the bookmarks. Did the stains possibly improve the art? Is Hulksmash!Angel now blue instead of green? It's almost like cruel poetry that it happened to the Aftermath HCs. Like it wasn't already bad enough, now you've got ink stains to contend with./end regularly scheduled rant against Aftermath by the unimpressed reader of Emmie, brought to you by SlayAlive - tip your server As much as I disagree with Paul, who you agree with... this, I actually agree with ahaha. It's nice to see we have some common ground, bud. I wonder if the bookmarks bled all over the pages because Aftermath was such a hot mess...
|
|
Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
|
Post by Hallow Thorn on Sept 13, 2009 21:45:37 GMT -5
I picked mine up today, $11 off them all because of the stain (that I first told them about) and when I got home and took the plastic off mine it had none, but somehow a few curve pages instead but can’t really tell. lol.
|
|
Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
|
Post by Paul on Sept 14, 2009 10:46:18 GMT -5
Everyone gushes about IDW's hardcovers, but they don't seem to be very consistant condition-wise. My AtF Vol. 3 and Spike: AtF both have wonky spines (all the ones in the shop were the same), which looks strange when they're sitting on the shelf. Now Aftermath has ink stains.
Other gripes: how come some volumes have bookmarks and others don't? I never use them, but they're nice to have. I've also noticed some spelling errors and other problems; they never fixed "corporal" and in one intro, George is described as a "telekinetic fish". If we can catch this stuff, shouldn't someone at IDW be able to? These books aren't cheap.
*grumble grumble*
|
|
patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
|
Post by patxshand on Sept 14, 2009 11:04:44 GMT -5
Everyone gushes about IDW's hardcovers, but they don't seem to be very consistant condition-wise. My AtF Vol. 3 and Spike: AtF both have wonky spines (all the ones in the shop were the same), which looks strange when they're sitting on the shelf. Weird, mine don't. I've read most of my copies 10+ times, and they look like they did when I just bought 'em. IDW's old Angel TPBs had spine issues. My "The Curse" and "Spike" covers cracked off, because the glue was shitty. The hardcovers have had no problems (though some B&Ns locations seem to have beaten the shit out of them), and the TPBs (Lynch's SPIKE and BLOOD AND TRENCHES) have been fine. I'm fairly sure that's just Thorn's store. None of the copies I've seen have that problem. The telekinetic thing sucks, as does the error in the "Previously On" for AFTERMATH that says that Gunn killed the Fred persona, because she never really WAS Fred. That was a plot point. But "corporal" isn't wrong. Whedon has used "corporeal," but I think someone brought in a definition to show that "corporal" is acceptable. [/quote]If we can catch this stuff, shouldn't someone at IDW be able to? These books aren't cheap. *grumble grumble*[/quote] That's the way it is with all comics. Warren from Season Eight has been ludicrous with all the errors, and Fray learns and forgets what "brake" means from issue to issue. Some errors from BUFFY and ANGEL were fixed, some weren't. For me, IDW's hardcovers are gush-worthy and Dark Horse's BUFFY TPBs are good as well. Physically good, the extras are not so much. I can also say that Dark Horse makes a good hardcover, as I have "The Long Way Home" in HC. Not IDW status, because still no extras, but it's a damn nice volume. I wish they did the rest of the series that way.
|
|
|
Post by Brian Lynch on Sept 14, 2009 12:13:32 GMT -5
I'm right there with you about the spelling/grammar errors. It's getting better, and I only have myself to blame, but yeah, every time one makes it in it kills me.
|
|