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Post by VampSlayer on Feb 25, 2009 0:24:23 GMT -5
ITS THE DAY!!!!!!!!!
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 25, 2009 1:04:38 GMT -5
Come on America, It's been the 25th all most a hole day here, your so behide... I wonder who is going to be the first to post us some spoilers
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 25, 2009 1:27:44 GMT -5
It's only one AM here, so it'll be quite a while before discussion really begins. Where are you from?
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 25, 2009 2:54:39 GMT -5
I come from the future... lol I Come From The Land Down Under (where woman glow and men plunder) Australia I bought a few Angel Dark horse Comics today because I couldn't wait to hear about #18...
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,174
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Post by jellymoff on Feb 25, 2009 16:54:50 GMT -5
Wow, can't believe no one has commented on this issue yet. I just read it through quickly, and my initial rating is an "OK". This is a way to keep the story going, but I wasn't blown away the same way I was when I read the 1st issue of ATF.
Kate's entry in to the story is kind of random, but I guess Angel does tend to just run in to people (Cordy in season 1 for example). I guess Kate may have been looking for him though; I guess he wouldn't be hard to find. Kate also seems like a totally different person then she was in Season 2, but I guess all of her expereinces have changed her attitidue. She does mention something about "The scowl".
Armstrong doesn't quite have the characters down. I think in an issue or 2 she may get it right, but I didn't quite feel that she quite captured Angel or Connor's essence.
So that's all for now; I will continue to read Aftermath, but I hope that it gets better...
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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 25, 2009 18:04:53 GMT -5
SPOILERS! Umm... well.... I didn't love it. There were some good moments, but overall I'm hugely disappointed. The first few pages were great: Angel killing demons, getting back to the swing of things, going back to the beginning. I was a big fan of that. We got a pretty nice scene between Angel and Connor, and an update on the characters who wont play a part in the comic. Who was Gunn leaving with? Illyria? Then we get to Kate... at least I think it was Kate. First off, it looked nothing like Kate. Secondly, there was just nothing Kate-like about her. She is one of my favorite characters, but this just wasn't her, completely different, even from what Brian did with her in First Night. Her entrance into the story just didn't work. "Hey Angel! Can I work with you? YAY! We're best buds! I found a church!" What.... the hell? Everything Kate in this issue was just terrible, severely upset. Kate without emotional problems = very crappy character. Not to sure how I feel on the base of operations either, a church? Just not loving that idea and the inside is just boring. The running joke of everyone just wanting to meet Angel and the "screening process" was just very unfunny, didn't laugh once. The story was confusing with those two random people who I don't understand. How they were written into the story and the way the information was spilled out was sort of irritating because it was just way too fast. What they want Angel to do is pretty interesting, I'm looking forward to learning more about that and where it goes and also Dez the were-panther (completely different from the cover). Her stalking of Angel was pretty creepy. What a lame cliff-hanger though. Hmm... will Angel get staked?! Tune in next month! There is just no emotional impact, no deeper meanings, no major themes or psychological character aspects. There was A LOT character-wise that could be dealt with post-After the Fall... but there was nothing, and that's pretty much what upsets me the most. The art was pretty good. Angel and Connor pretty much looked like themselves, but there was no Kate resemblance at all. The action scenes and dustings looked great. So yeah, not loving it. I'll keep reading it and hope it gets A LOT better. I have to give Kelly Armstrong some slack though, it's understandable that she doesn't have the feel of the show YET, but I'm sure it'll hopefully get better.
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
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Post by balesthebloody on Feb 25, 2009 18:10:45 GMT -5
This issue was very, off. I am not going to judge Kelly too hard considering this is her first time using the characters and all. I really liked the solo Angel and Angel and Connor parts in the issue, but other than that I felt like this was a weak issue. It just doesn't feel right without the whole gang there, plus I really miss Brian's grasp on the characters.
So this issue was "Okay".
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Feb 25, 2009 18:47:05 GMT -5
The art is a step backwards. It reminds me of the early Buffy comics. Kate looked NOTHING like Kate. Connor looked transgendered.
Ugh, the writing...
My quibbles:
Do you think it's Gwen's nature to beg? I'd think she'd just move on and sulk. She's not a typical girl. This isn't a verse for typical girls.
The opening sequence should have been thought, not him saying it. I know Armstrong was trying to have a cute pay off but it wasn't.
Kate. We've waited a while for Kate to come back. Now her presence seems kind of random. It's as if the story needed an extra character and they drew her name out.
Spike has a beard now? Weird shadowing...
This is a weak issue. I don't mean to be a hater but I really didn't find much to like.
I did like that there was a return to old school Angel, but with the twist of his popularity. I wish they would have spun the story more around that. Maybe evil William-Morris agents or something.
Enh, hopefully next issue will pick up.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 25, 2009 19:02:35 GMT -5
The art is a step backwards. It reminds me of the early Buffy comics. That's what I thought while reading the issue. Not just the art, but everything about the issue just felt like the old Dark Horse comics.
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 25, 2009 19:12:45 GMT -5
Had to endure some boring classes and a 4 mile jog, but I finally got my issue. I'll start by saying that I really like the story Kelley has set up in this issue. Providing Angel with a "new beginning" is no easy task, and for the most part, Kelley did a really nice job setting up the rest of her arc. All of the normal issues of a new writer on an established series are here. Angel's voice isn't perfect, but it was a lot better than I was expecting. His internal speech was pretty darn good, and there were only a few lines out of the entire issue that were below average, in terms of characterization. Gotta give Kelley credit for that. Probably my favorite thing about this issue, well I have two favorites: the story set up, and then Kate's return. Like the first few issues of After the Fall, Kelley's story has quite a few elements that I want to learn more about. It is these mysteries that always grab the reader's attention first, and I like what Kelley did in this issue, on that front. The two new suits are very interesting characters. You certainly get a Wolfram & Hart vibe from them, although they claim they want to do good. There is already some interesting evidence that supports both sides of their ambiguity. The red eyes for instance, that usually never equals good in my book. They also are a little TOO eager to get Angel to work for them (even going so far as to get rid of the crowds out front the "offices" and even get a city-wide restraining order to allow Angel to do his own thing). Whether they are demons, or just magic users, it is too early to tell. Why they want to help the people that have been affected by the post-apocalyptic fall out is also something I want to see explored more. Just the first issue in and I already have a list of questions I want to dive into, I love that. I couldn't be happier about Kate's return. I love that she sought Angel out, and we get a real sense of where her head is at very quickly. She did her part and survived Hell-A, and now, just like Angel, all she wants to do is help people. I really loved that parallel. Would I have liked a little more dialogue about what she has been up to over the past 3 years, or even a "Connor is your son?" panel? Definitely, but Kelley had a lot to do in this issue, and I'm sure some stuff had to be sacrificed. Bringing up character voice again, I didn't have any problems with Connor at all. He wasn't in the issue much, but I liked what we saw. He wants to find his own way, and I liked at the end where he agrees to help "part-time." It will be interesting to see how Gwen gets involved. I am sure she is just going to confront Connor if he doesn't talk to her soon, and I am very much looking forward to that. So, Gunn and Illyria in a car. Brian definitely said we'd be wondering what was up when we saw the Gunn panel in this issue. I can't wait to see this explored in Brian's issue. I am also glad that Lorne seems to be starting a new business as well, and I only hope that Angel doesn't get this one destroyed like the last two Caritas'. So we have Dave Ross on as artist now, and there were some good and not-so-good things about the art in this issue. For the good, Dave did an excellent job with the demons in the issue, action scenes and a lot of the outside location detail (especially scenes in the city). The new base of operations was kind of plain in design, which I wonder if Dave sacrificed detail there so he could spend more time on all of the great outside shots. Not really a huge issue, but I did like that it seems rather small and reminded me of the Season 1 office in a lot of ways. His Angel likeness wasn't perfect either, neither was his Kate. For some reason, Buffyverse women always seem to be the hardest to capture in the comic medium, so I didn't have many issues with his Kate, and his Angel was good enough, for the most part. It seems in panels where Angel is at an angle that the likeness was most troublesome, and Angel's jaw seems to get a little too Buzz Lightyear-ish in size, but again, new artist in an established series. Not everything is perfect from the get go. I guess bottom line is this: interesting story elements from Kelley with a strong set up. The art was pretty good throughout most of the issue, except for close ups of Kate and a few of Angel. I really want to find out why Dez wants to kill Angel. I have a feeling she knows what the two suits really are (as in, evil), and thinks Angel is in on whatever their ultimate goal is.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 25, 2009 20:02:14 GMT -5
Not really sounding to good... but happy about team Angel and Connor...
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 25, 2009 20:24:54 GMT -5
For some reason, Buffyverse women always seem to be the hardest to capture in the comic medium, so I didn't have many issues with his Kate It hardly ever happens, but I have to disagree here. Urru nailed all of the women right off the bat, as did Jeanty. Mooney's Kate was instantly good, and while Messina struggled with Amy Acker's characters at first, he excelled with every other woman. I think it's much less a Buffyverse women thing and much more a Dave Ross thing. I hope he finds out how to balance his style better with his likenesses. I agree with some of the stuff people are saying, but I still liked the issue. I had to read it a couple of times to "get" it, but I liked a lot of scenes better with multiple reads. It was definitely an easy read, but when we read something that's a new take on something we love, the flaws tend to jump out more than what's good, so I feel like everyone should just read this one over and see the good in it, because there is a lot of good. As we, the readers, and they, the writer/artist, get more comfortable with the title, I think it'll be a lot smoother throughout. Review is posted: buffyversecomics.blogspot.com/2009/02/angels-new-beginning.html
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Feb 25, 2009 20:31:24 GMT -5
You know what? This would have been really cute if it were Nina and Angel getting into this together. If Nina had been the side kick they could have explored their relationship more. Kate should have been reserved for something more crucial. They just threw her into it.
Why would Kate hope that Angel Investigations make page 1 on the news? Why is she suddenly wanting to help Angel? I know there is more to tell but this doesn't make sense...
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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 25, 2009 20:38:37 GMT -5
Yeah, I plan on reading it again in a little bit, think I just breezed through it and didn't take everything in, story wise. Still can't get past Kate though, my fears after reading that Kelly Armstrong interview in the back #16 came true. How she mentioned she didn't like Kate on the show, I feared the character would be changed dramatically and it happened. I loved what Brian did with her First Night. Kate found a purpose, but still admitted she was messed up, and not to mention totally badass. Here, she is Miss Perfect. I just hope there is a lot more development with her.
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 25, 2009 20:44:22 GMT -5
You know what? This would have been really cute if it were Nina and Angel getting into this together. If Nina had been the side kick they could have explored their relationship more. Kate should have been reserved for something more crucial. They just threw her into it. Why would Kate hope that Angel Investigations make page 1 on the news? Why is she suddenly want to help Angel? I know there is more to tell but this doesn't make sense... Kate sought Angel out because their missions are currently parallel with each other. He just wants to help people again, and so does she. What better way to fight the good fight than to turn to the one person she knows will be doing exactly what she wants to do? I didn't get the sense that was was just tossed in at all, because then she and Angel would have just ran into each other (which wouldn't have really worked), but instead she actively seeks him out. I thought that was great.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 25, 2009 20:48:10 GMT -5
I think the scene needed to be longer. I think they needed to have a few exchanges of dialogues before she offered him churches. The rest of Kate's characterization was good, though, and I especially liked her conflict with Angel about if the girl's situation in the end was genuine or not.
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 25, 2009 20:51:16 GMT -5
It hardly ever happens, but I have to disagree here. Urru nailed all of the women right off the bat, as did Jeanty. Mooney's Kate was instantly good, and while Messina struggled with Amy Acker's characters at first, he excelled with every other woman. I think it's much less a Buffyverse women thing and much more a Dave Ross thing. I hope he finds out how to balance his style better with his likenesses. Yeah I can get behind that. I guess what I was trying to say is that usually men in the Buffyverse are just more consistent in terms of likenesses. Jeanty's Xander, Giles, Andrew, and Urru's Angel, Spike, Gunn, Wesley, and Mooney's Angel, Spike, Gunn, etc. were always consistent. Urru's Nina was kind of off in her first panel, but perfectly fine afterwards (especially in #17), and I can't remember which artist or which point in the series, but a few panels of Fred weren't always consistent, and I think there is a few of Illyria I was unsure of as well. I do agree that it is most likely a "Dave Ross thing" though, as his close ups of Kate were consistently off. We'll just have to see in issue #19 if he improves.
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barryshaft
Novice Witch
Sometimes I shouldn't say words...[Mo0:0]
Posts: 224
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Post by barryshaft on Feb 25, 2009 21:19:45 GMT -5
Everyone's being pretty kind to this issue it seems. I mean, not necessarily kind as only Wyndam has really liked it so far but no one has really gone with a truly dissenting opinion. I'm afraid I'm going to have to be that person. I don't know if I've ever seen such a drop in quality between issues. It's almost as if Armstrong did everything she could to remove every subtlety from the characters as she possibly could. Simply put this is a terrible issue and it doesn't bode well for the future of the series.
The dialogue was very stunted, it's as if she was coming into the series without any prior knowledge of the characters. Her Angel is all about long-winded rants and corny one liners and her Kate essentially just shares a name with a character from the series. I can't see a single bit of Kate in this new incarnation, and that's a shame because Lynch really gave her a tremendous starting place with First Night. No matter how much Kate has changed over the years this happy-go-lucky wise cracking demon fighter is not her and I agree with the early poster who said this would have worked much better with Angel and Nina. In fact, if you just changed the word "Kate" to "Nina" in the dialogue bubbles I don't think a single word would change, that's how bland the character is here.
There's some interesting things going on though, Angel's on his own again, which is very nice to see. His new base of operations is intriguing, a vampire in a church is an interesting thought. Though it sort of just seems like Armstrong didn't like the Hyperion so she changed it as it was pretty clear after the last issue that Angel would still be hanging his overcoats there but there's no harm in tossing in a new location, the television series was all about it. Connor and Angel finally starting to have a father/son relationship is nice...though I don't think a mention of his parents would hurt as I can hardly see him just abandoning them now. All the panel-glimpses we got of the rest of the gang were intriguing, particularly Gunn and Illryia seemingly teaming up. The two new characters introduced were...alright...I suppose. I can't find much fault with Cat-Changer except that such a character for some reason just doesn't jive with the feel of the series lately. I can see a Cat-Changer coming up after the series had gone on for a season or two too long and had gotten to the Smallville side of storytelling...but for right now it just seems campy. But we'll see. The art was decent, easy to understand, even if the likenesses were a bit off. I never really go nuts on likenesses as Jeanty and Urru have very unique takes themselves on the characters.
Now, mind you, I'm not familiar with Kelly Armstrong's work, but right off the bat I can tell that she's never written comics before. I guess a lot of my dislike comes from the fact that I follow comics in general as well as the Whedonverse so this was a two-stone defeat for me. But, ultimately, her first issue into a series I'm not going to fault her too much, it's not an easy medium to just jump into. I'm obviously not going to stop reading after one issue, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and hope her voice gets a bit more focused in the coming issues, I'm not overly optimistic about this. Ultimately there's not a single hint of the darkness that hung across Lynch's arc and it's been replaced by an over abundance of jokey dialogue and running gags. This is just poor writing and it's made even poorer by the fact that it follows Lynch's damned near perfect 21 issue run of the series (Spike" After The Fall included).
The main issue here is credibility. Is the writing here as bad as the days of Angel: The Curse? No, but it's pretty close. IDW has had the rights to the characters for a few years now and only with Brian Lynch's introduction into the fold did it appear like they were focused on the depth of the series again. Angel After The Fall was focused on telling a very in depth and faithful story that elevated the series back to it's rightful place in the comics community. It's brought a lot of positive attention back to the series and many even prefer it to Whedon's Season 8 of Buffy (myself included). But to just toss the reigns over to just anyone seems a bit silly at this point when the property has climbed back to the top these last two years. The quality of writing has to reflect the quality of the product in general, and simply put, Armstrong's reads like really bad fan fiction.
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bitsy
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 137
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Post by bitsy on Feb 25, 2009 21:41:24 GMT -5
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 25, 2009 21:41:37 GMT -5
Everyone's being pretty kind to this issue it seems. I mean, not necessarily kind as only Wyndam has really liked it so far but no one has really gone with a truly dissenting opinion. I'm afraid I'm going to have to be that person. I liked it.
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