patxshand
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Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Mar 12, 2009 16:54:08 GMT -5
Wow, guys.
#18 was a fairly good start. I was a bit let down after the awesomeness that was "After the Fall," and just hoped that things would get better.
And this is better. Much better. Dialogue is great, story is unfolding very nicely. The characters sound a lot more like themselves.
But yes, the art isn't really good. Is it bad enough to make a whole bunch of fun of it? Nah, no, it's not at all. It's just not the style that I expect to see with Angel; instead of likenesses Ross goes for archetypes, and I'm not really fond of that... but it isn't even close to being bad enough to really distract from the story.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 12, 2009 16:58:00 GMT -5
it isn't even close to being bad enough to really distract from the story. Sadly, this wasn't true for me. IMHO the comic medium by its nature must rely heavily on the art establishing the tone of the piece. The dialogue has less power in this regard because it's written word, lacking a real voice's tone. So the art takes on this role and the art for this issue isn't establishing a tone true to ANGEL. And the art *is* the story, so bad art must detract from the story - the art is part of the story and it's not a good part here. The art is the story. If the art wasn't part of the story, Armstrong could have just written it as a short story without the comic images. Frankly, it might have been better that way because Armstrong's dialogue has a better grasp of ANGEL's tone. instead of likenesses Ross goes for archetypes Which is what I find problematic because the Whedonverse is about taking archetypes and subverting them and personalizing them. This art does neither - they remain superficial archetypes lacking the characteristic depth true for the Whedonverse. An archetype is antithetical to what it means to be Whedonverse character.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Mar 12, 2009 17:50:05 GMT -5
But yes, the art isn't really good. Is it bad enough to make a whole bunch of fun of it? Nah, no, it's not at all. It's just not the style that I expect to see with Angel; instead of likenesses Ross goes for archetypes, and I'm not really fond of that... but it isn't even close to being bad enough to really distract from the story. I have to semi-disagree. Not that it distracts from the story, but I find the art so very comical. It's hard to take seriously. I'm not saying the art is bad, but it's just not working for Angel. There is pretty much zero to no realism to the characters. It's just five pages and I'm sure once Angel puts his shirt back on, all will be well again. Regardless of the funny art, I'm still getting this and looking forward to where the story goes.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 12, 2009 17:53:14 GMT -5
It's just five pages and I'm sure once Angel puts his shirt back on, all will be well again. LMFAO! It's a sad state of affairs when I'm praying for the part of the story when Angel puts his clothes on. Lol they are just muscles, "disgusted" seems rather harsh. But we've already had an entire month to complain about how the characters look. This is how Ross is drawing Aftermath. People can either accept that or moooooooove on, the art isn't going to change much (although Kate looks a lot better). Why do we have to accept it or move on? Can't we not like the art, say so in discussions and still read the book? And while the joking hyperbole has reduced it to muscles, I think everyone has been pretty clear on how the style doesn't fit ANGEL. It's more than "just muscles". Art determines the identity of the series as much as the writing.
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Whedon Fan
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Post by Whedon Fan on Mar 12, 2009 19:42:32 GMT -5
Also Angel is green...
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 12, 2009 20:34:40 GMT -5
Also Angel is green... It's nighttime... Not exactly the best time to have a lot of lighting.
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narflet
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Post by narflet on Mar 12, 2009 20:36:00 GMT -5
Glad it's not just me that doesn't like the art! I didn't like it in #18 either, I don't like it at all. It'd be interesting to know how much of it is led by Kelley's direction and how much of it is just from Dave Ross.
I feel a bit like Emmie - it's the stereotypical t&a type comic book portrayal of females that is getting my goat here, not the nudity itself (Wyndam raises excellent points about were transformations). Dez's physique and Kate's impractical mid-riff bearing outfit...might as well just go Red Sonja on us! This is where I agree with Emmie, it doesn't seem to fit with the Buffy/Angel series and their portrayal of women.
Even with that aside, I still am not very keen on the art - but that's just my personal tastes. Maybe it'll grow on me, I wasn't keen on Franco's at first but now I love his work...then again, maybe not...who knows yet!
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 12, 2009 20:48:25 GMT -5
Yeah this does remind me a lot of when AtF started and a vast majority were skeptical about Urru's art. It's fine if people don't like the art, as you like what you like, but a lot did warm up to Urru eventually though. Not saying that will happen here, as we only have five issues of Dave's art, but I guess we will see what happens. My optimism shouldn't be a surprise at this point though. Personally, my issues with character likenesses are not as strong as some people. If I can look at a page and recognize who is who, then the artist has more or less done their job. While it is of course better if likenesses are spot on, that just doesn't always happen, but I have always been able to get over that quickly and just accept the art for what it is and continue on with the story. I am more interested in scenery and action scenes anyway, as stale or unbelievable action can completely rip me out of an issue, but Dave does a really nice job with scenes that have a lot of movement. His exterior scene detail is also very good and dynamic. It's all a balancing act for me, really.
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narflet
Potential Slayer
grr. arg.[Mo0:0]
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Post by narflet on Mar 12, 2009 21:04:12 GMT -5
Personally, my issues with character likenesses are not as strong as some people. If I can look at a page and recognize who is who, then the artist has more or less done their job. Totally agreed, I feel just the same. Sometimes art just clicks with me (I fell in love with Georges work straight away), sometimes I'm unsure or indifferent until I warm up one way or another (Franco, whose style, as I mentioned, I now love. Gabriel Rodrigez is another whom I wasn't sure about at first, but now love) and sometimes I just straight out don't like the art...and this is where Dave Ross is falling. Technically it's fine, I can tell who is who and what is going on...but it's just not for me. Which is a shame as it does detract somewhat from the experience for me. Still, I am always optimistic and feel that I can only fairly judge things when I have the whole - be that the issue rather than the preview or the whole of the arc rather than one issue.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 12, 2009 21:13:29 GMT -5
Yeah this does remind me a lot of when AtF started and a vast majority were skeptical about Urru's art. It's fine if people don't like the art, as you like what you like, but a lot did warm up to Urru eventually though. Not saying that will happen here, as we only have five issues of Dave's art, but I guess we will see what happens. I never had a problem with Franco's art actually. I think his work fit tonally with ANGEL. I actually started off liking Urru's art and have never had a complaint with him. So I don't fall in line with this comparison. And I'm with narflet here - it's the T&A depiction of women and the archetype heroic depiction of Angel that's bothering me. The characters don't even look like themselves anymore. And yeah, I know that is something a lot of people say about the comics. But coming from me - I'm the one who's always posting comparison pics of Jeanty's work with actual pics of the actors and describing how the likeness is there. And I've never felt the need to do this with Urru...ever. With Runge, I only complained about how the women lacked detail at times and sometimes didn't even look like women. And this was mostly when Runge was rushed to finish an issue.
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 12, 2009 21:17:10 GMT -5
Yeah I was a fan of Urru's from the beginning as well. I still remember flipping open #1 for the first time and going "wow." Just loved how the art looked. I like to flip through #1 sometimes just because I get that same feeling. Buffy Season 8 turned me into a total comic geek lol. I've embraced it though, as I wish I had started reading them years ago.
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narflet
Potential Slayer
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Post by narflet on Mar 12, 2009 21:42:23 GMT -5
Emmie speaks my mind again. While I didn't click with Urru right away, I never felt his art didn't fit. By the time I got to the end of AtF and Franco was back on the art I had a whole new level of appreciation for the whole as I'd come to love his art. Thinking on it though, I never felt that *any* of the AtF artist didn't fit with the feel of the Buffyverse - sure, I didn't like some of the artists as much as others but that's to be expected. I'm glad Season 8 got you hooked Wyndam, it's a great form. I've been reading comics and graphic novels for years, although always more of the non-superhero variety. Picking up Sandman volumes in the local library is what got me started.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 13, 2009 1:16:03 GMT -5
Pat on Whedonesque: Hey Pat, so I reacquainted myself with ANGEL: Long Night's Journey and I've gotta say...I disagree. Shocking, right? First, I very much recognize Angel in this LNJ likeness and his body type actually fits the closer style of DB's frame. He's not over-muscled to the point of Hulkocity. Second, Charisma herself is kinda all boobs/butt in real life (totally gorgeous, of course) but her design in LNJ was reminiscent of Cordelia's own style. This is not true for Kate in Aftermath - her design goes against her character's conservative sexuality and what we saw of her in First Night. The difference between LNJ and Aftermath regarding archetypes are that the archetype remains subservient to the character. In LNJ I see Angel first, a comic superhero second. In Aftermath, I see Superman/Hulk mixture first, a comic superhero archetype second and then I force myself to realize that's Angel underneath it all. I think the strongest likenesses in LNJ are of Gunn and Angel. Wes' art there cannot compare to the work done of him in After the Fall. And Cordy fits the comic/cartoonish style they were going for there but it borders on a bit too much T&A at points. Yet this is Cordelia, so being voluptuously hot isn't exactly unexpected - it works. But when all's said and done, I think After the Fall has set the bar VERY high for art and depictions of the characters. Since this series continues the numbering here, I'd like it to continue the high quality of the art we had for the majority of AtF, especially in light of the amazing high note AtF ended on with the Urru/Mantovani team bringing in the most amazing art of the series. Unlike when LNJ was published while the show was airing, the ANGEL comic is no longer a fun and light side story to accompany the amazing work on the TV show. The comics *are* the story now. Welcome to the big leagues. Step up.
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patxshand
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Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Mar 13, 2009 1:27:52 GMT -5
I can agree with a lot of that. What I don't agree with is your opinion on the differences of the archetypes in the books... for me, the only thing that makes the LNJ's book better is that the art is prettier. Not because it's closer to what Angel should look like--I mean, Angel has claws!--but because it's prettier.
Agree about Cordy, though, fully. While the book gave her a fair amount of T&A, considering what Charisma (and, in a way, ALL of us) is blessed with. Also agree that the positions the artist put her in were often a bit too much.
My major gripe with the Aftermath art is the depiction of Kate. Angel is more or less Angel, and it's not his muscles that bothers me... it's his face, really. But again, not bothered enough by it to be really ruffled. It's not like with Art Lyon, where it was kind of a tease. You can see how good the pencils and inks were, but the coloring muddied it up. That made it hard. But this, it's less of a tease and more of an "Eh, not my style, still works though" coming from me.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 13, 2009 1:39:25 GMT -5
I can agree with a lot of that. What I don't agree with is your opinion on the differences of the archetypes in the books... for me, the only thing that makes the LNJ's book better is that the art is prettier. Not because it's closer to what Angel should look like--I mean, Angel has claws!--but because it's prettier. Haha! I kinda breezed over bringing up the claws because his LNJ human design was a better comparison to Aftermath. But then his look more resembles the vampire design we see in BtVS season 1 so I guess they were just shooting for the obvious change there. Strictly looking at the non-vamped out Angel's between the two, I'll take Angel LNJ over Aftermath every time. Agree about Cordy, though, fully. While the book gave her a fair amount of T&A, considering what Charisma (and, in a way, ALL of us) is blessed with. Also agree that the positions the artist put her in were often a bit too much. It fits a bit better because Cordy is so voluptuous a character, but yeah there's one panel where she's doing a side kick that's so blatantly gratuitous about showcasing her ass-ets. My major gripe with the Aftermath art is the depiction of Kate. Angel is more or less Angel, and it's not his muscles that bothers me... it's his face, really. But again, not bothered enough by it to be really ruffled. It's not like with Art Lyon, where it was kind of a tease. You can see how good the pencils and inks were, but the coloring muddied it up. That made it hard. But this, it's less of a tease and more of an "Eh, not my style, still works though" coming from me. Kate was my major gripe from Issue 1. Angel only became a gripe for me in this issue. I almost feel like the art for Angel without his shirt on is overcompensating - like when actors hear they're doing a scene without their shirt on, they immediately go to the gym. It's like Ross sent Angel to the imaginary gym in his artistic head and made him Muscle Man. The panel where Dez pushes the stake up against his chest - I'm seeing so many bulging muscles everywhere that I'm busy staring at his abnormal looking body and face. Angel apparently now has a 12-pack that looks like he's been dieting so all his water-weight falls off so his muscles punch out without any other flesh so he can show them off in his body building contest. Or he's auditioning for Mr. Universe. And seriously, where did that bulging muscle from his shoulder to his neck come from? I was okay with Angel's design in #1. And now I'm not here in the #2 preview. To me, the art is about doing justice to the story the writer has created. Instead, I'm busy looking cross-eyed at the unnatural and OOC designs of Angel and Kate, while desperately trying to *not* look at the shadowed areas of Dez (I really don't want to, thanks). There were some bumps in the road for After the Fall's art (the Age of Brown), but the thing was they redeemed themselves in those last 3 issues. Amazing art by Urru and coloring by Mantovani. Aftermath only has 5 issues - who's to say they'll even realize they need to change something before the series has already been completed? Heck, aren't they already done with most of the art? I know that Season 8 is already working on the pencils for #26 and #27. They're four issues ahead. Aftermath already has 1/5 of its issues published and the next 1/5 is coming out next week. There simply isn't time to readdress artistic issues. So I don't expect Kate to be getting better. And I'm just hoping that Angel keeps his clothes on so I can stop counting how many abnormally big muscle bulges he has along his ribs, neck, abdomen and chest. Here's where I'm coming from: I *want* it to be great. I want it to be better. Maybe that's not gonna happen and I'll have to accept something less. But if that's the case, if I'm letting go of my higher expectations, then there's gonna be griping as I climb down that ladder.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 13, 2009 2:40:59 GMT -5
It fits a bit better because Cordy is so voluptuous a character, but yeah there's one panel where she's doing a side kick that's so blatantly gratuitous about showcasing her ass-ets. Yes, wasn't that grand... ;D
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Post by CowboyGuy on Mar 13, 2009 7:18:58 GMT -5
What happened to ANGEL?! Brian, we need you back as soon as possible! The art in this is really terrible. Sorry kids.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 13, 2009 10:29:21 GMT -5
If it's an art complaint, having Brian back isn't going to change anything. Unless, there's a written clause somewhere in their contracts that say "Anywhere Brian goes, Urru goes too". Or Mooney. Or Runge. Or any of the AtF artists you fancied.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Mar 13, 2009 10:45:06 GMT -5
Lol, Emmie's outrage at this preview is hilarious. I don't feel the same because I simply don't care enough about this title to really hate it. The way I see it, this is just IDW taking the Angel license and doing their own thing with it. Joss' involvement is over, canon is over, and this is IDW moving on without them. I can go along for the ride, sure, but I don't consider it a legitimate continuation of the show or AtF. So my expectations are way lower and I can take it or leave it. The art is pretty bad, but not quite as offensive as people are making out. It's crappy, cliched superhero art. Obsenely big muscles, even bigger tits... you'd find it in any B-list Marvel book. It's underwhelming, sure, but it doesn't make my eyes bleed. I actually prefer it to Runge's work in #9-11. At least Ross doesn't resort to cut-and-paste. Also, did everyone complain about the T&A in AtF? There was rather a lot of it, especially in the early issues. I'm looking at you, Nina and the Spikettes.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Mar 13, 2009 12:29:22 GMT -5
Im not liking the previews at ALL!
Im not going to post this huge long review thing, but I agree with almost everything everyone else has said about this preview: Why is Angel suddenly Lou Ferrigno? Why would someone wear a Kevlar Vest and leave their midsection uncovered?
I frankly, hate the art, well for a Angel comic anyway, and I'm not too sure how I feel about the character of Dez just yet. Seemed awfully fast for her to jump to not wanting to kill him, after she....just tried to kill him?
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