Who's The Real Villain Here?

[VampSlayer]

Twilight has the same goals as Buffy. To destroy all demons, hellmouths, ect. Yet he also sees slayers as a threat, and magic itself. Is he right? Was Buffy right to change the rules for herself? Who's the real villain?!

Can you blame Twilight? He wants to end magic. Good and bad. It reminds much of Jasmine in Angel Season 4. He sees that destroying the bad, comes with making sacrifices. This being all of the other magic. And then still, can you blame him?

Willow, for example. She went dark. Almost ended the world, and we see that she goes dark again in the future. She is a major threat dark. She is even when she isn't evil. She is, IMO, more dangerous than the hellmouths.

And the slayers. There are alot of woman out there being killed of them being turned slayers. Buffy turned them slayers. And Buffy did it using magic.

What are your thoughts? Is Twilight really all bad, even if she doesn't see eye to eye with Buffy?

[henzINNIT]

It's definately not as black and white as Twilight being the villain. He isn't a good guy though, he's willing to do very questionable things to acheive his goals, including playing a part in making vampires socially acceptable. This again contrasts with Buffy, who has been doing some questionable things herself, like robbing banks.

[Skytteflickan88]

How do we know "why" Twilight wants to end magic? I haven't read issue 11 for a while, do he say so there?

In case Twilight is doing what he thinks is right, he's still no less evil than Hitler, who also did what he thought was the right thing.

Killing/banning demons and magic isn't right. First of, I'm pretty sure demons where here first. And some of them are nice. And magic, isn't that a part of nature? (And maybe humanity, since we have witches and so many people can just read a spell and magic happens? Who counts as magical or not?)? And it's not like all unmagical creatures, for example, Knox, are all that nice either.

If Twilight is trying to do the world a favor by ending magic, and only magic, he's a idiot.

I might partially be saying this because I doubt Twilight would stop with magic and magical creatures. Let's assume that after this end of magic, only animals and non-witch-humans(assuming that not all humans have a little magic in them) are left? in case Twilight wants too and magic to save the world, why not kill humanity as well? Let's face it, one day we will destroy oursevles, and maybe our planet too and the humans in the Buffyverse will be no different.

So I'm against Twilight's goal, because let's face it, if he succeds, not even Xander would be allowed to be left behind to entertain us.

Also, I don't think casualities in war are acceptable in such large scale.

That said, I doubt ending magic is Twilight's true goal.

[Hallow Thorn]

What gives him the right? has he been chosen by higher powers to do so? If he sees Willow as a dark treat he should just try and lock her powers away forever. Along with black magic, but I guess you just can’t have white magic without dark.

[henzINNIT]

Being chosen is overrated. The slayer is the product of some bastard shadow men who damned women forever, and Cordy's ascension was just a chess move in the world's longest long con.

[Hallow Thorn]

How about Angel? that worked about really good for him too lol.. But I don't mean TPTB just any type of Higher power (are they the only one?)

[Skytteflickan88]

I bet there are lots of powerful forces out there who can "choose" people to carry out their missions, whatever they might be.

Doesn't mean that those forces are good tough.

[Hallow Thorn]

Jul 14, 2009 5:52:41 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

I bet there are lots of powerful forces out there who can "choose" people to carry out their missions, whatever they might be.

Doesn't mean that those forces are good tough.

That's right.

[AndrewCrossett]

Twilight is definitely "all bad" regardless of whether his stated goals are worthy or not. (And I don't think his stated goals are his real goals).

Non-evil people don't send missiles to murder young girls in their beds, or goat-men to kill them from behind when they're trying to escape. Especially when he knows (and has told Buffy) that the Slayers' intentions are good.

In any case, there's a consideration even greater than "good" vs. "evil," and that's "trying to kill me and my friends" vs. "not trying to kill me and my friends." Buffy would be perfectly justified in killing a good person to keep him from killing her or her friends.

I don't believe there's a scrap of good in Twilight. He's manipulating moral grey areas in a calculated attempt to get Buffy to doubt herself. His goal isn't to teach Buffy a lesson about the rightness or wrongness of her situation... it's to weaken her resolve and self-confidence so he can destroy her. All tyrants use "the greater good" as a public excuse for their atrocities. Their real intentions can be judged through their actions.

And Twilight's actions are evil.

I'm still not sure the man in the mask is really Twilight, though.

[buffyfan21]

Hmm, interesting point, VampSlayer...

I would argue that Twilight is a bad guy though b/c he is going around hurting innocents, while it is Buffy and other slayers' job to protect innocents.

[butters]

Im kinda a Twilight fan. Im not a fan of all the magic and im sick of all the slayers.

[AndrewCrossett]

Jul 14, 2009 18:40:21 GMT -5 @butters said:

Im kinda a Twilight fan. Im not a fan of all the magic and im sick of all the slayers.

You'll probably be unhappy with the outcome, then. The bad guys tend to lose in these stories, in the end.

[Kratos]

Jul 14, 2009 19:11:40 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

You'll probably be unhappy with the outcome, then. The bad guys tend to lose in these stories, in the end.

If Fray's future is the real upcoming future then that means Twilight will in someway partly win. How or why? Who knows.

[butters]

Yeah, but i dont think all the slayers will be around in the end either. I think just Buffy and Faith (if Faith lives) So win/win!

[balesthebloody]

I really think that the choice the gang made in "Chosen" to turn all Potentials into Slayers, was a VERY bad idea. But that doesn't make them the bad guys, only that they should have thought about all of this before they acted.

The real kicker here is, "Is Twilight really a bad guy?". Well at this point I have to say "maybe". I really don't know enough about him or his plans to really say at this point.

All I can say is Season 8 is full of "grey", and you know, I kinda like it!

[patxshand]

Twilight kills people on a massive scale. He wears a black mask and cape. He's a villain.

He's a slightly grey villain, but his status as a villain isn't really in question.

[balesthebloody]

Jul 14, 2009 20:48:39 GMT -5 patxshand said:

Twilight kills people on a massive scale. He wears a black mask and cape. He's a villain.

He's a slightly grey villain, but his status as a villain isn't really in question.

True, I guess I should have worded my post more to fit the topic. I think it should have went something like this;
"From the public's point of view, is Twilight really a bad guy?".

[Skytteflickan88]

I don't think the public knows about twilight.

[AndrewCrossett]

With Twilight, we have to recognize that having a reason for doing what he does is not the same as having a valid justification.

Every evil tyrant in history has been able to point to a reason for doing what they did. Some of those reasons, looked at objectively, were even worthy ones. The common hallmark of self-righteous tyrants is the firm belief that the end always justifies the means.

[balesthebloody]

Jul 15, 2009 7:53:21 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

I don't think the public knows about twilight.

I wonder if they will ever find out about him? I would kinda like to see that happen. See what they have to say about all this "Ending magic business".