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Post by thevampirewithsoul on Jul 24, 2009 23:33:56 GMT -5
Was Angel right to kill the Wolfram&Hart special ops team in "Conviction" or did he do the right thing.
I'm conflicted about his choices because on one hand they are only human, but on the other hand they were going to shoot a whole school of kids, and needed to be stoped.
What does everyone make of Angel's choices in this episode?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 24, 2009 23:44:31 GMT -5
I'd been waiting to see humans killed on the show. Everytime Buffy, Angel or any other character let a murderer go because he's/she's human, I get pissed. Demons get killed because they're trying to feed, but when brats try to sacrifice girls(for example the guys in 'Help') to get power, they're not killed.
There's of course the prison option, but even if they go to prison, they might eventually be released. And even if they won't get released, they're wasting good tax-money.
I'm fine with killing murderers, human , demon, God, elf, whatever. Evil is evil. Sometimes bad deeds can be forgiven, sometimes they can't.
Now for this particular group of humans, in Conviction, I think it was right to kill them. Angel was attacked, he had to do it. Even if the humans only wanted to kill the kids to save LA(I think they did it because it was their job), Angel had to defend himself.
The leader-guy also had to be killed, because it was pretty clear that he hadn't tried to kill the kids or Angel for a good reason.
PS. I actually can only remember one human being killed, but I assume several were killed.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Jul 24, 2009 23:48:18 GMT -5
Only one was really killed. The others were all knocked unconscious by Angel. I thought it was cool how Angel used to his foot to fire the shotgun under Hauser's jaw
"What happened to mercy?"
"You just saw the last of it"
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Post by thevampirewithsoul on Jul 25, 2009 0:08:03 GMT -5
I think that the problem that I have with the scene is the fact that thoughout the series Angel always seems to avoid killing humans when he fights them.
And then after "Conviction" he returns to avoid killing humans mode as we see when he makes that speech about humanity in "Shells" just before Wesley kills Knox.
PS.I thought that he snapped one of the special ops guys neck, maybe I need to watch that episode again.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 25, 2009 0:08:25 GMT -5
You sure no one died? I'm disapointed(yes I know, I'm evil).
And that move was a 100% awesome.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 25, 2009 0:12:00 GMT -5
I think that the problem that I have with the scene is the fact that thoughout the series Angel always seems to avoid killing humans when he fights them. And then after "Conviction" he returns to avoid killing humans mode as we see when he makes that speech about humanity in "Shells" just before Wesley kills Knox. PS.I thought that he snapped one of the special ops guys neck, maybe I need to watch that episode again. I agree. Angel killing the dude was badass, I'm not gunna lie, but Angel has said multiple times that his purpose is to "save people's souls". With the Ops guy the simple solution was a shotgun to the face? It just leaves me scratching my head. |
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Jul 25, 2009 0:23:08 GMT -5
Well, Hauser did say that he truly believes in evil, that he is evil, he has 'conviction'. I don't think Angel was going to let him go. Hauser would have just caused more problems than Angel needed, so he simply eliminated him with the shotgun...while also stating that mercy is greater than conviction
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 25, 2009 0:28:06 GMT -5
But I think the same thing could be said about every person who worked at Wolfram & Hart. Lilah basically tells Angel the same thing Hauser (thanks for the name) told him in Sleep Tight. Angel should have just gotten a shotgun in Season 1 and stormed the building Terminator-style. It might have made his next five years a lot easier.  |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 25, 2009 0:29:34 GMT -5
About Angel changing from mercy-guy to Rambo-guy:
I think something broke in him when he lost Connor the first time. He's been holding it together after that, and Connor coming back helped, but he never healed. Then when Cordy slept with Connor, Jasmine came along, and he saw how messed up Connor was(trying to bomb people), he started breaking down again.
Don't take me wrong, he is very strong. He survived tons of guilt and a trip to hell without going mental, but like then, he needs time to recover.
He's been ripped apart, abused, but he has found himself again. But it takes time.
In Conviction, he was the kind of guy who didn't care about mercy. In Shells, he had had time to "recover", get back a piece of himself. Then it went downhill for a while.
In a few years, he might even be a man I can admire again.
That's one of the reasons I can't dislike Aftermath, because in it, I see the Angel I learned to love in season 1(of Angel). The kind of man I hope he will become again some day.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Jul 25, 2009 0:34:35 GMT -5
But I think the same thing could be said about every person who worked at Wolfram & Hart. Lilah basically tells Angel the same thing Hauser (thanks for the name) told him in Sleep Tight. Angel should have just gotten a shotgun in Season 1 and stormed the building Terminator-style. It might have made his next five years a lot easier. He could have done that Terminator style, which would have resulted in a huge amount of guilt afterwards and also, Wolfram and Hart would have just brought back more employees, ala 'Home' after the Beast killed everyone |
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jul 25, 2009 0:53:01 GMT -5
Joss strikes me as rather humanistic; I don't think he would like to have people dying simply because they did bad things.
Aside from that, Angel killing is the first sign that W&H is going to eat him alive, even if he doesn't believe it. He'll try to do the right thing, but it always ends up wrong in the end.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 25, 2009 0:58:37 GMT -5
Angel should have just gotten a shotgun in Season 1 and stormed the building Terminator-style. It might have made his next five years a lot easier. Now Ethan. A shotgun isn't the best weapon of choice for mass murder. *shakes head* He should have just wired up some explosives in the basement. |
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 25, 2009 1:05:16 GMT -5
Angel should have just gotten a shotgun in Season 1 and stormed the building Terminator-style. It might have made his next five years a lot easier. Now Ethan. A shotgun isn't the best weapon of choice for mass murder. *shakes head* He should have just wired up some explosives in the basement. Wow Emmie. You are scary. We are talking entertainment here. A simple explosion is a lot less cooler. |
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jul 25, 2009 2:22:31 GMT -5
Angel should have just gotten a shotgun in Season 1 and stormed the building Terminator-style. It might have made his next five years a lot easier. Now Ethan. A shotgun isn't the best weapon of choice for mass murder. *shakes head* He should have just wired up some explosives in the basement. That's right, 'Melrose Place' style. |
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Jul 25, 2009 17:25:27 GMT -5
Shotgun for me. They're heaps fun. Of course, I'm completely talking from a gamer's perspective
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Post by lightandmagic on Jul 27, 2009 1:24:09 GMT -5
I was glad when he did it. By the time I had seen it I was so tired of seeing the "we can't kill people cause they're people!" rule in the Buffyverse, the view that him and Buffy hold so highly. People are just as capable, if not moreso in some cases, of being terribly evil things, and this man was about to gun down a room of kids and seemed to have no remorse on the subject. If it was a demon Angel would have killed him in a heartbeat.
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Post by Nina on Jul 27, 2009 7:47:24 GMT -5
I thought that it was a statement, Angel was going for the zero-tolerance. You can't have people like Hauser walking around, killing Hauser was a sign that Angel would kill anyone who doesn't listen to him or break the new rules.
I wouldn't say that it was the right thing, but I can't be bothered by it either. This man was dangerous and certainly evil ... soul or no soul.
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gumgnome
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Post by gumgnome on Jul 27, 2009 9:29:45 GMT -5
I was glad when he did it. By the time I had seen it I was so tired of seeing the "we can't kill people cause they're people!" rule in the Buffyverse, the view that him and Buffy hold so highly. People are just as capable, if not moreso in some cases, of being terribly evil things, and this man was about to gun down a room of kids and seemed to have no remorse on the subject. If it was a demon Angel would have killed him in a heartbeat. Buffy and Angel both follow these rules because they respect human law and the ability and right for ordinary humans to deal with illegal actions in society. If they break these rules impartially, they effectively become like Faith, finding themselves above society's rules simply because they are stronger. Demons and monsters are outside human law which puts them in the sphere Buffy and Angel fight in. |
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Post by lightandmagic on Jul 27, 2009 13:19:24 GMT -5
I understand why, I just don't necessarily agree. Although, when it comes to things like the death penalty I'm considered quite conservative on the issue (whereas I'm fully liberal on pretty much everything else) so it's probably why it bothers me when they get all moral high ground about killing people.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 27, 2009 16:45:07 GMT -5
I wonder what will happen if vampires become too popular, and they're considered to have rights, which means, they're not on Buffy & Angel's playground anymore.
I seriously doubt Buffy will stop slaying just because the law tells her that vampires deserve a fair trial.
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