Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Jul 26, 2009 13:41:17 GMT -5
I remember before Aftermath came out, Kelly Armstrong specifically said in an interview that Joss said it would be canon and that's why it follows the continuation's numbering (in issues and hardcover) or something to that effect. So why do I keep reading posts that are like "Aftermath isn't canon. The art sucked! The dialogue sucked!". You can't just decide what goes with official canon. I may not like "Bad Eggs" but it's still canon. Or was it universally decided that people will just be like "Nah, we don't like it. It's not canon..." I don't get it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it just doesn't matter in the official scheme of things. I'm lost.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 26, 2009 13:46:54 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't think anyone knows. Armstrong said that the story was approved by Joss Whedon's offices, but the older comics and novels were also approved and none of those are canon. But then again, Aftermath does follow up on the events that happened in After the Fall.
I personally don't look at it as canon.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 26, 2009 13:50:18 GMT -5
Joss didn't say it would be canon. He (or his office) was sent the outline and approved it, as they do with everything that comes out with the Buffy or Angel name on it.
I don't think Kelley fully understood what we specifically mean by "canon" when she answered the question. Approval is not the same as canonicity.
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 594
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Post by neowhobaz on Jul 26, 2009 14:06:22 GMT -5
This will be better understood when and if other writers of the series down the line choose to incorporate elements from Aftermath into their writing.
example: If angel says as a random quip to someone: "The demons in this city know i'm not the only Angel they have to worry about Anymore." or if there was an appearance of Dez or Jameriah, etc
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Post by henzINNIT on Jul 26, 2009 14:50:45 GMT -5
Kelley never said the story was officially canon. In fact she was clear in her belief that fans could take it or leave it.
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Post by jessesopher on Jul 26, 2009 14:52:07 GMT -5
I don't think it really matters either way. Joss is done with Angel. It's IDW's prerogative at this point whether or not they will retcon it. Given the response, I doubt any future writers will incorporate Kelley's character's or stories or whatnot. But as far as canon is concerned, I'm not sure that it really matters. Think of Aftermath like a standalone episode of the show. No major repercussions to the overall story arc, no major character development, nothing really happened that makes or breaks the series. Yeah, it sucked, but Kelley did kind of play it safe as far as the story goes. So fans can easily just forget it happened. Like I said, I highly doubt Dez or James or any animal-people (aside from werewolves) will be popping up in future issues.
Now, as far as canon is concerned, it seems like most people here are accepting the IDW continuation of the series as canon. I'm one of those people. Like I said, Joss is done with Angel so far as we can tell. So let IDW keep him alive. Plus, with writers Lynch and Byrne (and hopefully Willingham - I've high hopes for this one!) the franchise is in good hands, I think. Keep in mind that Joss was never very involved with Ats either. It was only after Buffy was off the air and Firefly was cancelled that he started being more actively involved in the show (season 5). It was always like his red-headed stepchild; I don't think he ever really cared all that much about it. It was always being controlled by other people like David Greenwalt. He's always been more interested in the Buffy story, and rightfully so, Buffy is his baby. Buffy is the reason this world exists. But what I'm getting at is that, in my mind, IDW controlling the Angel story is no different than Greenwalt controlling the story - so long as they stay true to established canon. Granted Greenwalt had collaboration with Whedon about the story and that's something that, I assume, IDW writers (aside from Lynch) don't have access to; but as I said, so long as the writers know the world and the universal laws of established canon, I have no problem accepting their contributions as such.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jul 26, 2009 15:16:32 GMT -5
I think we're in a good position to pick and choose.
Joss was involved enough with ATF to call it canon, but that was him signing off. Everything made after so far has no input from him, and it's possible that that is not going to change. Canon is therefore meaningless for the forseeable future of Angel, and IDW will continue to publish stories that fit continuity under a flimsy "official continuation" banner. The only thing that will definitively render a new story non-canon is Joss's say so, and I think he's being careful not to step on anyone's toes.
I don't mind about canon as long as the stuff is well put together. Lynch has more than earned his place up there with the writers of the show, and so I treat Asylum, Shadow Puppets and After the Fall the same way I treat any of the episodes before them. Aftermath doesn't impress me, so I have the luxury to ignore it.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 26, 2009 15:20:41 GMT -5
Why do you say Joss is finished with Angel? I'm pretty sure he's not. In fact, we've been told he's going to be appearing in Buffy season 8 sooner or later. I'm 100% certain Joss has more in store for Angel & Co.
In any case, IDW doesn't have the authority to declare anything canon. They're a licensee, they own no part of the Angel franchise.
If Joss is not involved with a Buffy or Angel project, it's not canon unless he specifically says it is.
The IDW series was canon as long as Joss was involved with it. That means issues 1-17 and 23. He's free to declare anything else he wants to be canon, but hasn't done so.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jul 26, 2009 15:31:16 GMT -5
Joss has expressed no intention to return to "Angel" in any way shape or form. That he may bring Angel into season 8 means nothing really as it's nothing to do with "Angel"
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Post by jessesopher on Jul 26, 2009 15:47:18 GMT -5
Even then he's stated that he'll only use Spike & Angel sparingly. And only when/if they are needed. He doesn't have any plans at all the for the Angel gang as far as we know.
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Post by thevampirewithsoul on Jul 26, 2009 16:03:07 GMT -5
I don't consider Aftermath canon because not only is it bad story telling, but it also destroys a lot of the Angel story if it is canon.
First everyone was way too out of character. Second we learn that some of the angels were involved with the fighting in "After the Fall". Plus the fact that the Powers That Be can send Angel warriors is really stupid. If the Powers can send the Angel army, then why do they need Angel as there champion? Also the Powers having there Angel army kill people because they might become criminals goes against there hands off policy that they have always seem to have. This is why I can't accept Aftermath as canon.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 26, 2009 16:03:17 GMT -5
Joss has expressed no intention to return to "Angel" in any way shape or form. That he may bring Angel into season 8 means nothing really as it's nothing to do with "Angel" Since season 8 takes place several years after AtF, the character will have been shaped by his experiences in the meantime. Those experiences will not include anything from the non-canonical continuation of the IDW series. If, for example, an IDW writer has Angel lose an eye, Xander-style, don't expect the canonical Angel in season 8 to be wearing an eye patch. Where did Joss say that he intended never to return to Angel?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 26, 2009 16:07:19 GMT -5
Plus the fact that the Powers That Be can send Angel warriors is really stupid. If the Powers can send the Angel army, then why do they need Angel as there champion? The more the better? Why have a few warriors when you can have many? Since season 8 takes place several years after AtF, the character will have been shaped by his experiences in the meantime. Those experiences will not include anything from the non-canonical continuation of the IDW series. Not several years. Just about 18 months.
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 594
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Post by neowhobaz on Jul 26, 2009 16:18:04 GMT -5
beggining of Buffy season eight- 1 year and 6 months after chosen
Not fade away- 8 months to 1 year after chosen
the end of Aftermath ( for those that see it as part of the continuity)- 2 to 3 months after not fade away
which would put the events of aftermath 3 months before the long road home....just a guess though.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jul 26, 2009 16:43:27 GMT -5
Joss has expressed no intention to return to "Angel" in any way shape or form. That he may bring Angel into season 8 means nothing really as it's nothing to do with "Angel" Since season 8 takes place several years after AtF, the character will have been shaped by his experiences in the meantime. Those experiences will not include anything from the non-canonical continuation of the IDW series. If, for example, an IDW writer has Angel lose an eye, Xander-style, don't expect the canonical Angel in season 8 to be wearing an eye patch. Where did How do you assume Joss won't refer to any IDW stories when Angel's brought into season 8? He liked non-canon Betta George enough to want him included. Where did I say Joss say that he intended never to return to Angel? I said he's expressed no intention to return to the series.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 26, 2009 16:50:51 GMT -5
How do you assume Joss won't refer to any IDW stories when Angel's brought into season 8? He liked non-canon Betta George enough to want him included. If he wants to include any IDW stuff in his canon writings, he can do so. But until then, it's not canon. Where did I say Joss say that he intended never to return to Angel? I said he's expressed no intention to return to the series. I would assume that's because he's busy with other projects. Just because he's not going to continually write Angel stories doesn't mean the right to guide Angel's official story passes on to someone else. It's Joss's story, whether he's actively producing new material or not. The IDW stuff coming out now is "expanded universe." Joss is under no obligation to recognize it when he decides to write Angel in canon again.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Jul 26, 2009 17:06:14 GMT -5
The only definitively canon Angel comics are After the Fall #1-17. Those are the only books with Joss' name attached.
That said, people can count what they like. I myself also count Spike: AtF and Become What You Are as canon since they fall under the AtF title. However, those stories aren't explicitly confirmed to be canon. Same with Brian's other Spike stories; those books teeter around the edge of canon (due to references in AtF) but don't quite make the cut. I still count them.
If people want to view Aftermath and future Angel comics as canon, that's their right. I view them as expanded universe. The fact is, there's no official word and probably never will be, so all we can do is speculate and debate.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 26, 2009 19:30:52 GMT -5
If people want to view Aftermath and future Angel comics as canon, that's their right. That kind of makes the concept of "canon" completely irrelevant, but yes... it is their right. Nobody can stop them. Some things are, by definition, not matters of individual opinion, and I think canon is one of those things. If everyone has their own "canon," then nobody really knows what's "real" and what isn't within the context of the story... which is the reason a concept of canon exists in the first place.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Jul 26, 2009 19:38:12 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't think anyone knows. Armstrong said that the story was approved by Joss Whedon's offices, but the older comics and novels were also approved and none of those are canon. But then again, Aftermath does follow up on the events that happened in After the Fall. Actually, she said Joss himself approved it. Just for specifics.
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Post by jessesopher on Jul 26, 2009 19:55:30 GMT -5
Actually, she said Joss himself approved it. Just for specifics. Really?
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