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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 15, 2009 11:10:48 GMT -5
I don't think it was the title, so much as the knowledge that Oz will be in it that sparked the discussion.
"Retreat" suggests the theme of the Slayers retreating before their enemies... how much greater significance it has really depends on whether it's the issue title or the arc title.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 15, 2009 11:21:04 GMT -5
We've known that Oz will be back for a while now. The debate on whether or not they'll get back together has been going for a while now (on other threads), but I think the title exacerbated the speculation. I'm kinda surprised that they've started naming individual books in an arc now. For the #21-25 run, it made sense. However, if the trend continues, it'll be quite interesting and illuminating to see what the actual arc title will be.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 15, 2009 12:39:56 GMT -5
Okay. Here's my theory for how the "relationship" aspects of the Oz arc will play out. There will of course be the other storyline of the Slayers getting slaughtered by Twilight, but here's the prediction for the soap opera part:
Oz comes back.
Kennedy is her usual "hands off Red" self, but this gets much more serious when it becomes obvious that Willow still has romantic feelings for Oz.
Kennedy splits up with Willow over this. She goes to Tokyo and begins a relationship with Satsu.
Willow and Oz get together as a couple.
Willow now has to use Oz as her "gateway" for her meetings with Saga Vasuki. But Oz, having been apart from Willow for so long, can see her with the fresh eyes that Kennedy couldn't. He realizes something is wrong, and eventually he finds out about SV.
He splits up with Willow over this.
Now left alone, Willow throws herself fully into her relationship with Saga Vasuki, whose interest in Willow is... not benevolent.
Willow begins to go Dark.
At this point, there are two directions this story could go in over the rest of the season:
Option A:
Buffy is too distracted by her own problems to notice something is very wrong with Willow. Willow leaves Buffy, and starts working against her as her enemy.
At some point Buffy gets ahold of herself, realizes what's happening, remembers what happened 200 years in the future, and takes action to reconcile with Willow and bring her back from the dark. This somehow avoids being a rehash of the end of Season 6.
Option B:
Willow becomes an enemy to Buffy and her pals. Buffy responds with a sense of betrayal and throws herself fully into the fight against Willow.
Willow takes revenge by killing Kennedy and Satsu, and trying (but failing) to kill Oz.
In the end, both Buffy and Willow fight against Twilight, but not as allies. (Willow's not going to let anyone take her power away). Twilight is defeated, but his and Buffy's mutual goal is achieved: demons, vampires, and magic are banished from the Earth for centuries.
Buffy and all or most of her friends die in the final battle and go to the afterlife, where Season 9 happens.
Willow survives, and lives on as a sad madwoman for 200 years until, in an effort to erase her own past, she summons PastBuffy to her own time, and is killed by her.
And that's Willow's story: with all the love she had to give and all the love others had to give her, in the end she chose Power as her lover.
(This is just speculation, though. Joss would never do such hurtful things to the characters he loves, right?)
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ligeia
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 192
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Post by ligeia on Feb 15, 2009 13:11:46 GMT -5
I don't think everyone's going to die, but I think the Slayer activation spell is going to be reversed.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 15, 2009 13:41:31 GMT -5
I don't think everyone's going to die, but I think the Slayer activation spell is going to be reversed. Wouldn't that also reverse the big Female Empowerment theme that the spell represented in the first place? Joss seemed to really like that as a point to end the TV series on. I don't know if he'd really want to send the message that Empowerment was bad and needs to be reversed.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 15, 2009 13:56:40 GMT -5
I don't think everyone's going to die, but I think the Slayer activation spell is going to be reversed. Wouldn't that also reverse the big Female Empowerment theme that the spell represented in the first place? Joss seemed to really like that as a point to end the TV series on. I don't know if he'd really want to send the message that Empowerment was bad and needs to be reversed. As far as we know, the reversal will at one point happen. Whether through mass depowerment or deaths is uncertain. But at the moment, we know that Potentials are still rising and being called all the time (i.e. #21). How we go from this status quo to Fray's future where Mel's the first to be called in over a hundred (maybe two... can't remember specifics) years is dubious. Taking away the power doesn't necessarily have to mean a reversal of the female empowerment message. With power comes responsibilities, as has been explored in all seasons of BtVS thus far. Those responsibilities usually entail doing things for the greater good. We've seen so far that sharing power is a great feminist message, but underlying that is the greater message of what it means to be a hero: giving up what means most to you if that's what it takes. If the girls surrender their power this time to save the world (instead of exercising it in "Chosen"), I'd say that it's a natural progression of the themes in BtVS. I'm not proposing a possibility to what will happen (I'm not big with speculation games... probably why I've never won the Lotto) but rather a possible explanation for your conundrum.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 15, 2009 14:19:22 GMT -5
They already did the "reverse the Slayer spell" theme in Wolves at the Gate, after all.
Or maybe they get de-powered at the end, yet still win anyway because of their own courage and abilities, demonstrating that their true Empowerment comes from within and not from some spell. That would fit in well with my theories about Season 9 (we freed humanity from the Lower powers, now let's free it from the Higher ones as well so it can be in charge of its own destiny.)
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on Feb 15, 2009 14:38:16 GMT -5
Okay. Here's my theory for how the "relationship" aspects of the Oz arc will play out. There will of course be the other storyline of the Slayers getting slaughtered by Twilight, but here's the prediction for the soap opera part: Oz comes back. Kennedy is her usual "hands off Red" self, but this gets much more serious when it becomes obvious that Willow still has romantic feelings for Oz. Kennedy splits up with Willow over this. She goes to Tokyo and begins a relationship with Satsu. Willow and Oz get together as a couple. Willow now has to use Oz as her "gateway" for her meetings with Saga Vasuki. But Oz, having been apart from Willow for so long, can see her with the fresh eyes that Kennedy couldn't. He realizes something is wrong, and eventually he finds out about SV. He splits up with Willow over this. Now left alone, Willow throws herself fully into her relationship with Saga Vasuki, whose interest in Willow is... not benevolent. Willow begins to go Dark. At this point, there are two directions this story could go in over the rest of the season: Option A: Buffy is too distracted by her own problems to notice something is very wrong with Willow. Willow leaves Buffy, and starts working against her as her enemy. At some point Buffy gets ahold of herself, realizes what's happening, remembers what happened 200 years in the future, and takes action to reconcile with Willow and bring her back from the dark. This somehow avoids being a rehash of the end of Season 6. Option B: Willow becomes an enemy to Buffy and her pals. Buffy responds with a sense of betrayal and throws herself fully into the fight against Willow. Willow takes revenge by killing Kennedy and Satsu, and trying (but failing) to kill Oz. In the end, both Buffy and Willow fight against Twilight, but not as allies. (Willow's not going to let anyone take her power away). Twilight is defeated, but his and Buffy's mutual goal is achieved: demons, vampires, and magic are banished from the Earth for centuries. Buffy and all or most of her friends die in the final battle and go to the afterlife, where Season 9 happens. Willow survives, and lives on as a sad madwoman for 200 years until, in an effort to erase her own past, she summons PastBuffy to her own time, and is killed by her. And that's Willow's story: with all the love she had to give and all the love others had to give her, in the end she chose Power as her lover. (This is just speculation, though. Joss would never do such hurtful things to the characters he loves, right?) That sure was fun to read but not in a million years would any of the things you mentioned happen.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Feb 15, 2009 14:45:01 GMT -5
In Fray, Urkonn says to Fray: The line continued-- there were girls with the power, but they were never called, never trained. Which may be why you have no memories of your heritage.This to me says that there was no mass-depowerment. The Slayers were still Slayers, it's that all demons were eradicated, so there was no need for them anymore. Eventually they just petered out naturally until only one (Fray) was left. Just for the record, I strongly disagree with de-powering the Slayers. Buffy's "are you ready to be strong" speech in "Chosen" is utterly inspirational and one of the best Buffy moments ever. To undo that and rob women of their power would be downright offensive to me. If it does happen, it will need to be handled very carefully and contain some kind of theme like "true Empowerment comes from within and not from some spell", as Andrew puts it. Obviously Joss knows what he's doing, but it disturbs me how many fans seem enthusiastic about de-powering the Slayers, just so we can get back to the classic "one Slayer" status quo. Did they even see "Chosen"
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 15, 2009 14:58:53 GMT -5
That sure was fun to read but not in a million years would any of the things you mentioned happen. I'm relieved to hear that.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 15, 2009 16:06:13 GMT -5
In Fray, Urkonn says to Fray: The line continued-- there were girls with the power, but they were never called, never trained. Which may be why you have no memories of your heritage.This to me says that there was no mass-depowerment. The Slayers were still Slayers, it's that all demons were eradicated, so there was no need for them anymore. Eventually they just petered out naturally until only one (Fray) was left. I agree with your interpretation, but will also offer that "there were girls with the power" can also refer to Potentials, since it was implied in S7 that there was something within a Potential that was awoken when they were called. Which jives very well with the part that goes "but they were never called, never trained". The only problem with saying that they just petered out because there was no need for them is well, there was a need for them. Somehow, vampires remained, or at least, came back, and there was good reason for girls to have been trained. The Watchers' Council apparently went mad, probably from just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, waiting for a miracle (hello promised messiah... there are some stories that keep popping up), which further suggests that while there were Potentials, there were possibly no Slayers. Until Mel. I'm hoping S8 begins to answers the whys: why the number dropped from thousands to one. Why and specifically when did the status quo reset? And hey, how the hell did Slayer powers get split amongst fraternal twins? That will probably be a story for another day, but still... curious.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 15, 2009 16:18:41 GMT -5
I think the vampires were gone for most of that 200 years, and the Power didn't re-awaken until they came back in large enough numbers to be a problem again. Hence Mel being called.
Buffy's final victory will only be a temporary one, of course. Evil can only be fought, never defeated. (cf. "Not Fade Away")
I'm guessing new Slayers stop being called after Buffy's win, but the old ones continue to have the power until they die of whatever cause.
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
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Posts: 684
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Post by Malsad on Feb 15, 2009 17:35:12 GMT -5
may be, but slayers are part demon is one thing that people seem to forget, so the vamps were to leave, being part human, then the slayers would also have to leave
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 15, 2009 17:45:30 GMT -5
may be, but slayers are part demon is one thing that people seem to forget, so the vamps were to leave, being part human, then the slayers would also have to leave But they didn't. We know for a fact (from "Fray") that they kept getting empowered the whole time.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 15, 2009 17:50:25 GMT -5
may be, but slayers are part demon is one thing that people seem to forget, so the vamps were to leave, being part human, then the slayers would also have to leave But they didn't. We know for a fact (from "Fray") that they kept getting empowered the whole time. Whether girls were bona fide Slayers during that gap period is debatable. There is enough wiggle room in the text that we could just say that there were Potentials, but no Slayers. What we can say for certain is... Urkonn was either being very cagey about the details, or the details were really lost, which is corroborated by the lack of anything concrete in the books as seen in "ToYL".
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Malsad on Feb 15, 2009 19:36:32 GMT -5
indeed
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 17, 2009 12:31:52 GMT -5
I thought it was made clear that Fray was the first to be called after the event.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 17, 2009 12:38:59 GMT -5
They never made it completely clear in "Fray" what was meant by being "called." We are told that there were girls with the power, but none were called.
That could either mean there were Potentials, but none became Slayers... or it could mean there were Slayers, but they were never contacted by a Watcher or asked to perform any Slayer duties.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 17, 2009 13:21:44 GMT -5
While that is true, it's strange that a group that went nuts waiting for a Slayer wouldn't have hunted the girls down. Regardless of whether there was enough evil to fight, it seemed that the Watchers' Council was expecting demons and what nots to return. They would have gone looking. Unless they somehow lost their way of tracking Slayers. Or, they did look for girls, but realized that none of them were real Slayers. Funny thing is, it seemed that Mel was a Slayer from a very early age. Harth had the Slayer dreams very early on, and Mel was always very athletic and all. So why wait till she was 19 before contacting her? Guess we'll see... as I said before, plenty of wiggle room. You could squeeze Paula Deen right through...
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
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Posts: 684
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Post by Malsad on Feb 17, 2009 13:25:20 GMT -5
lol
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