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Post by Darth_Yotho on Jan 29, 2010 8:05:48 GMT -5
Reading this thread and not yet having read "Retreat TPB" (waiting till march).
Isn't the simple sollution.
Warren did die for a number of seconds. Before Amy revived him. This is why the first could still take on Warren's form(s). Remember that the same happened to Buffy and her deats in S1 and again in S5 which Buffy overcame ... but still the First was able to take on Buffy's form.
And a new question opens up "How did real-Warren know about his First-form telling Andrew to kill Jonathan and Andrew then doing it" a quick answer could be: "That real-Warren learned of this due to overhearing Andrew talk about that stuff about The First in Warren's form talking Andrew into killing Jonathan." I mean Andrew brought it up several times on and probably off-screen.
If I'm missing something let me know ... but I hope the error is solved.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 29, 2010 8:11:17 GMT -5
The error is corrected in #30... it's an obvious patch, but it's fixed.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 29, 2010 8:44:16 GMT -5
I think Joss is a fan of changing your perceptions of the past with his big twists, but it's often quite destructive to continuity.
The cleanest way to reintroduce Warren would have been that Willow killed him as we saw in "Villains", and sent him somewhere horrible when she made him disappear. Amy doing her petty spells discovers in "Killer in Me" that Warren is Willow's weakness and digs him out of the hell he came from.
By making it that Amy was scheming all along, we're forced to believe she was watching Willow in the woods from as far back as season 6, saved Warren in a split second and spent season 7 twiddling her thumbs waiting for some grand revenge. Her actions in season 7 were in fact all an act as she was in on a far bigger plot the whole time.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 29, 2010 9:24:30 GMT -5
Amy didn't save Warren, at least not until he had died for a millisecond. At least that was the explanation given in the lettercol. And it's not like she and Warren could have exacted revenge there and then. According to Warren, he was still relearning how to walk when Amy hexed Willow in S7... so no, she wasn't twiddling her thumbs... or she was, but it wasn't really by choice.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 29, 2010 9:43:57 GMT -5
Shame that Amy can keep Warren alive but has no power to help him walk or whatever though. It's the need to explain this away that makes me think Joss took a more complicated route.
She kept him alive but the first can assume his form? Oh he died for like a couple of seconds. She magic'd him away from Willow after the skinnery... Willow didn't notice cause she was like drugged up on magic.
Instead of coming up with a story for his revival that made the past stronger, he damaged continuity. Back-handed explanation/apologies in the comic's letter section don't really help.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 29, 2010 10:15:41 GMT -5
And this is the first time that a continuity error has occurred in the narrative? Minor plot point. Accept it, or not, and just move along. We all accept the bungles, and move on, despite the fact that it annoys us. Warren died. For a tiny fraction of a second. Then was revived. The First could assume his form. He's a dancing bundle of exposed muscles and tendons. Who never wears pants... which leads me to believe that something that most likely looks like chorizo is bouncing about, and constantly censored by the artists. Prudes!
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on Jan 29, 2010 11:55:21 GMT -5
buffy died and the first took her form. the first also took the form of drusilla, a vampire who is yet to be dusted. maybe we don't know ALL there is to know about the first and what it's capable of doing.
i think the way that they've corrected this 'error', though not ideal, is acceptable.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jan 29, 2010 14:11:36 GMT -5
I was pleased with the correction in #30. As alexkrycek said, not ideal, but acceptable.
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Post by Darth_Yotho on Jan 31, 2010 16:48:30 GMT -5
Okido, we'll see. I'm surprised how they've fixed it
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 1, 2010 0:32:42 GMT -5
buffy died and the first took her form. the first also took the form of drusilla, a vampire who is yet to be dusted. maybe we don't know ALL there is to know about the first and what it's capable of doing. i think the way that they've corrected this 'error', though not ideal, is acceptable. Well, vampires are dead, so why wouldn't the First be able to take one's form? i.0
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on Feb 1, 2010 10:48:17 GMT -5
buffy died and the first took her form. the first also took the form of drusilla, a vampire who is yet to be dusted. maybe we don't know ALL there is to know about the first and what it's capable of doing. i think the way that they've corrected this 'error', though not ideal, is acceptable. Well, vampires are dead, so why wouldn't the First be able to take one's form? i.0 don't get me wrong. i think the first SHOULD be able to take the form of vampires. they are dead. and since the first has taken form of buffy, who has died (twice) before, the first should have been able to take the form of warren, who has also died once before. what i meant with the first taking form of the vampires is, it can take the form of people/monsters that are dead, living dead, and resurrected. we know it had an army of uber vamps, and the bringers. and we know it wanted to protect the scythe from the slayer. we also know that it can bind with living beings, like caleb, and give them super strength. point being? the first is extremely powerful for a non-corporial entity. anyways, i'm starting to think that the first may have had insight into what twilight is hoping to stop. and i'm kinda hoping it plays some part in the season eight finale, or twilight reveals what the first was trying to stop with buffy and the scythe.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 1, 2010 14:19:34 GMT -5
^^ I see. Interesting idea on Twilight/the first/season 8. I'm really eager to see what happens.
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martodd
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
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Post by martodd on Feb 10, 2010 13:40:46 GMT -5
I actually think that bringing Warren back was the worst things about the comics.
He is not REALLY needed for the story, it could have been pretty much the same without him. His death on the show was a really powerful moment that had its consequences and should have been lay to rest, not turned and twisted like that. I kinda like season 8, because it is funny and has its good moments, but I will never respect it. And Warren is a really big part of the reason why I don’t respect the comics. The others are the totally misused appearance of Fray and the lack of Buffy’s maturity. She had it in season 7 and it all gone.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 10, 2010 15:02:53 GMT -5
And Warren is a really big part of the reason why I don’t respect the comics. The others are the totally misused appearance of Fray I think by the end of the season the appropriateness of the Fray arc will be very apparent. I think Joss has proven himself enough times to earn a little bit of trust that he knows how to structure a story. The reason for things happening wasn't always readily apparent on the show, and it's not in the comic either. and the lack of Buffy’s maturity. She had it in season 7 and it all gone. Really? I thought the biggest revelation in #31 was how emotionally mature she (and Xander) have become. They worked out their issues like adults instead of with quivery voices and threats of fisticuffs, like they did years ago. But Buffy isn't perfect, and I doubt many of us would hold up as well under similar circumstances.
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martodd
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
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Post by martodd on Feb 11, 2010 3:59:42 GMT -5
And Warren is a really big part of the reason why I don’t respect the comics. The others are the totally misused appearance of Fray I think by the end of the season the appropriateness of the Fray arc will be very apparent. I think Joss has proven himself enough times to earn a little bit of trust that he knows how to structure a story. The reason for things happening wasn't always readily apparent on the show, and it's not in the comic either. Do you think they would put some sense in Fray’s appearance? I also think the arc will have its effects later this season. But I think the story will be dealing with Buffy and Willow and future Willow and themes like that and will not use the character of Fray at all. Which is pretty disappointing. I really loved Fray’s mini-series, I though it was absolutely amazing. And when I learned that Buffy would come to Fray’s future I was really excited, I wanted to see Buffy helping Fray dealing with her brother, Buffy helping her being a slayer, teaching her what a slayer really is and possibly even Fray teaching Buffy on her philosophy of live. I hoped the story would focus on the conflict between Fray and her brother and I hoped for some resolution in that area. So I was really disappointed by the way the writers misused great character like Fray and her brother, making it all about future Willow and her relationship with present Buffy. Don’t get me wrong, I think Willow’s story on that arc could lead to something really great, but I just felt ignored as a Fray fan. It’s natural for the comics to focus on the main characters like Buffy and Willow, but why bringing Fray into the mix when you don’t plan to use her properly? Oz and Riley’s appearances in comics also were small, but they were nice, they used those characters well and I really liked. They were supporting characters in the TV show and it was good for them to have some guest appearances in the comics. But Fray was a main character and bringing her and her complex story and her world just as a wallpaper for Buffy and Willow’s issues was really mean, in my opinion. and the lack of Buffy’s maturity. She had it in season 7 and it all gone. Really? I thought the biggest revelation in #31 was how emotionally mature she (and Xander) have become. They worked out their issues like adults instead of with quivery voices and threats of fisticuffs, like they did years ago. But Buffy isn't perfect, and I doubt many of us would hold up as well under similar circumstances. I actually liked that conversation, it was good and they acted mature, as you say. In the last few issues Buffy’s acting really great and I liked them a lot, but I am still afraid they would bring Buffy to her teenage maturity level from the first half of season 8.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 11, 2010 8:31:43 GMT -5
I don't think that Joss intended to tell a "Fray" story in "ToYL". It was a "Buffy" story, with Fray as a special guest star. The point of S8 is to connect "Chosen" to Fray. Therefore, it would seem remiss to not feature Fray in some way. Fray's purpose in the arc was just to show Buffy what her world would become. At the end of the season, Buffy's little jaunt into the future will make sense. It's probably already beginning to, with Willow getting her powers back and such (from some future cataclysmic event; i.e. her future death). According to Scott Allie, there are still Fray stories to be told, some I'm glad that they didn't squander them on a 4-issue arc. But back to the point: Fray was never meant to be the feature in "ToYL". It's still very much a story focused on Buffy, and the events that influenced her decisions so far, and possibly continue to inform them. So Fray was used properly, if not to everyone's liking. It's great that we care so much for a supporting character in the story that we want more for them, but it was not her purpose to be centerstage that time. I would, however, like to see more Fray stories in the future.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2010 8:38:35 GMT -5
We need to avoid falling into the trap of equating "Joss didn't tell the story the way I would have if I were telling it" to "Joss told a bad story."
There are lots of story directions in season 8 I would have liked to see explored more (*cough* Batsu *cough*), if only they were able to write a new issue every single week with no loss of quality. I've satsified that wish by writing fanfic to fill in the blanks.
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 11, 2010 9:32:00 GMT -5
And Warren is a really big part of the reason why I don’t respect the comics. The others are the totally misused appearance of Fray I think by the end of the season the appropriateness of the Fray arc will be very apparent. I think Joss has proven himself enough times to earn a little bit of trust that he knows how to structure a story. Really? When did that happen? Season structure is probably Joss's biggest weakness in my opinion.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 11, 2010 9:40:55 GMT -5
Really? When did that happen? Season structure is probably Joss's biggest weakness in my opinion. Then why continue? I'm reading because I like the way Joss Whedon tells stories.
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 11, 2010 10:42:10 GMT -5
Really? When did that happen? Season structure is probably Joss's biggest weakness in my opinion. Then why continue? I'm reading because I like the way Joss Whedon tells stories. Because of his other strengths, the characters and dialogue.
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