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Post by diabeticdude202 on Oct 9, 2009 6:12:03 GMT -5
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Post by wenxina on Oct 9, 2009 8:18:36 GMT -5
All that said, I do agree that Scott's answer wasn't satisfactory at all. Yes, perhaps Monroe wasn't dead in that panel, but what Bay said about making him a martyr, that just read like he was dead. I read his answer, and now I've come up with a way to make it work: the image of Monroe dead was from Bay's recollection. She thought she killed him, she feels guilt over his "death", and therefore remembered him more bloody than he was--which the viewer then saw. Not bad editing... just bad remembering on Bay's part Still doesn't work on several levels. For one, if a dead body moves... it's not really dead. If they buried the dead body, and it suddenly appears to them on the battlefield, I think a little more shock is in called for, even from Oz. But none of that happened. Oz's thing about Monroe joining their ranks indicates that he knew that Monroe was still alive. In this case, I think even Scott has admitted to sloppy editing. diabeticdude202: Unless you haven't read #27, there's no reason for you to not who Monroe is. But even if you haven't read it, the context that has been given is pretty clear.
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Post by diabeticdude202 on Oct 9, 2009 8:54:25 GMT -5
Oh yeah. I just reread the issue. Its that werwolf guy Bay bit! That was an awesome part of the comic. Thanks for responding to my question, wenxina! *karma
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 9, 2009 8:58:33 GMT -5
The Monroe glitch is an easier fix for the trade than the Warren one. They just have to change or remove the balloon where Bay is talking about making him a martyr.
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Post by NotaViking on Oct 9, 2009 10:33:03 GMT -5
A glitch? Really? That's pretty generous. Anyway, taking out the martyr line doesn't fix it. You're changing what happened and how the whole scene works. When Dawn's saying "Suspenseful" and "Really! So suspenseful", we see a werewolf in the background. I certainly assumed that we were meant to think that it's Monroe. Oz then undercuts that with "Not really. Throat. Right here." That in itself indicates Monroe's death. Then obviously we have the bloody scenes of Bay biting Monroe and Monroe lying dead. When the werewolf from the background does attack, it turns out to be a minor moment (though to me, unintentionally hilarious), but if Monroe is still alive, it will seem like he was the attacker. That obviously doesn't fit with him helping out in #29 (and after nearly being killed by Bay in the past, it’s a stretch anyway). Even if you don't see it quite the same way that I do, there's a lot to change. And that's no help to those of us just collecting the single issues. Really, the events of #27 were simply totally forgotten about.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 9, 2009 10:34:04 GMT -5
The Monroe glitch is an easier fix for the trade than the Warren one. They just have to change or remove the balloon where Bay is talking about making him a martyr. Perhaps some off-hand comment about how she had to floss for a week to get his hair out of her teeth?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 9, 2009 10:57:46 GMT -5
Maybe he's Adam Monroe from "Heroes," and has the power to regenerate.
Yes, I know that this was a continuity error, no two ways about it. Which is why it would be nice to run the scripts by someone who, unlike Jane and Joss and Scott, doesn't have a million-billion other things on their mind.
But I do believe removing that "martyr" comment would fix the problem. Without that, all we know is that Bay bit Monroe in the throat and left him bloody on the floor. I don't remember... do werewolves in the Buffyverse have super-healing powers like vampires and Slayers?
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Post by Rebecca on Oct 9, 2009 11:11:56 GMT -5
I read his answer, and now I've come up with a way to make it work: the image of Monroe dead was from Bay's recollection. She thought she killed him, she feels guilt over his "death", and therefore remembered him more bloody than he was--which the viewer then saw. Not bad editing... just bad remembering on Bay's part Still doesn't work on several levels. For one, if a dead body moves... it's not really dead. If they buried the dead body, and it suddenly appears to them on the battlefield, I think a little more shock is in called for, even from Oz. But none of that happened. Oz's thing about Monroe joining their ranks indicates that he knew that Monroe was still alive. In this case, I think even Scott has admitted to sloppy editing. Dead bodies move after death all the time. "Death spasms". Oz's thing about joining ranks does indicate that he knew Monroe was still alive. OR they just forgot about the shock value and didn't put it in it's own panel. Sloppy editing, perhaps, but I'm willing to give them a pass on this. That obviously doesn't fit with him helping out in #29 (and after nearly being killed by Bay in the past, it’s a stretch anyway). His motivations for helping out in #29 were explained. He believes they have come around to his way of thinking, fighting to preserve magic, and so he helped his "allies". I do agree though, the events of #27 were completely forgotten about.
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Post by NotaViking on Oct 9, 2009 12:02:05 GMT -5
wenxina - Back to the gun issue, which I do think is very interesting. When Buffy says lines like "These things? Never helpful", I really don't think that you can just take that as purely a literal comment on the exact situation that she's in. For me there's definitely another level in those type of comments and I do see an anti-gun message in the show. The instances of guns that come to mind are Darla in the episode "Angel", Jonathan in "Earshot", the fake police officer in "What's My Line" and, as you mentioned, Warren in "Seeing Red". All negative. Buffy does use a rocket-launcher against the Judge, but that was very cartoon-y. If she'd gunned him down with an AK-47, that would have been a very different scene. Guns might not kill vampires, but bullets do slow them down and they'd definitely be useful against demons. But the good guys don't use them because as far as I'm concerned, that's not the message Joss wanted to send out. Firefly and Angel are clearly different cases. It's not a simple as guns=bad though as it's also about using guns as a metaphor for real world violence and differentiating between that and the violence on the show. With an army of gun-toting slayers, we've certainly crossed that line now. What's really annoying about Oz and Bay on the battlefield, is that it wouldn't be that hard to have it make sense. If they were shown (tastefully) naked, you'd understand instantly that they had transformed into werewolves, but Bay was injured and now Oz was trying to get them to safety. On Buffy's coldness, I was far more bothered by the sending of Dawn out into the battle than the reaction to Oz and Bay. That was more slightly jarring dialogue, which I've noticed too often in this arc. People getting killed left and right, bothers me too - two armies of humans being treated like cannon fodder. Again, it's the crossing of the line from fantasy violence to real world violence. His motivations for helping out in #29 were explained. He believes they have come around to his way of thinking, fighting to preserve magic, and so he helped his "allies". Yes, I know, but I just consider it to be a stretch that a guy like Monroe, who led his werewolves to massacre Oz's group, would turn up to lend a hand. They might be on the same side now, but I'd expect Monroe to have a bit of a grudge over being killed / nearly being killed. Given that the writer clearly forgot about the events of #27, I don't think we have to take the explanation in #29 as good enough to cover what happened in #27. I'm not saying it's totally implausible though, just a bit of a stretch. To make a positive comment for a change (shocking, I know ;), I did really like the panel of Faith just about to put her helmet on. Her despair, over the situation she's in, is so clear on her face.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Oct 9, 2009 15:49:45 GMT -5
This issue was pretty good. I enjoyed reading it. Not a whole lot else to say, because...
Overally, I'm caring less and less about Season Eight. I'm not sure why, and it's upsetting me because I used to be one of it's biggest fans. I don't think it's the plot itself, the last few issues (particularly #28) have been perfectly enjoyable, but I find myself stuggling to care about the series in general. The latest issue of Buffy used to be an event, now it's a chore.
I think it might be the pacing. S8's been going on for two and a half years now, and it's really dragging it's heels. This happened with Astonishing X-Men. I loved that series when it started, and by the end I couldn't give a shit anymore. I got bored and moved on. Who is Twilight? What's Riley's agenda? Will Warren ever actually do anything to justify his existence? I don't care about the answers to these questions anymore and I feel like a traitor because of it.
When I'm reading the issues themselves, I have fun. They're good comics. But I don't give them much thought afterwards anymore. Alternatively, I've really been enjoying the Angel comics lately, even though I think Buffy is technically the better series. Maybe it's because Angel is actually doing something new, and not the same story that's been going on since 2007?
Oh, and about the Monroe error... that's pretty shocking. The Warren error was bad writing, but it wasn't as bad as forgetting a character died two issues ago. Jane needs to read her own work, this has happened twice in her arc.
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Post by Rebecca on Oct 9, 2009 15:55:37 GMT -5
Paul, sidebar, your avatar is freaking me out.
I'm sorry you're becoming disinterested in S8. I feel almost the same way, it's hard to be really excited over each issue seperately, very little discussion and analysis coming after each printing, but rather more and more criticism.
I have hopes that the season as a whole will be better suited in an omnibus-like setting, where it would by proxy have better flow and make for a better story. But I totally hear you, it's starting to get a bit frustrating. We all want it to be good, yet come away wishing for more.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Oct 9, 2009 16:14:00 GMT -5
I'm also having the same problem. I'm enjoying Season 8, but I'm just not invested in it like I use to be. That excitement I had the first Wednesday of every month for the first 20 issues is just gone. Getting on SlayAlive and discussing every detail and speculating was just insanely fun. It still is, but discussion has just died down lately.
I definitely think it's the pacing. Predators and Prey moved so slowly, and now Retreat feels like it's moving too fast. So many things are happening that are insane, but none of them are being explained. Pat made a good point about the actual battle that I didn't think of while reading it the first time. They are shooting guns and killing humans, but there isn't any reaction from them. What happened to "no Slayer carries a gun...ever" from TLWH Pt. 2 and Predators and Prey?
It's kill or be killed, but it'd be nice to get a real reaction from one of the characters.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 9, 2009 16:24:16 GMT -5
Wow, I'm having the exact opposite reaction. I'm finding it harder and harder to wait for each new issue and see what happens next.
I think next issue will most likely satisfy those who think not enough is happening.
I do agree that the pacing will probably flow better when the entire series can be read in paperback format. But I'm glad I'm getting it this way first.
(It would help a lot if we weren't always spoiled two or three issues in advance because of the solicits. The final scene of #29 might have been more effective if we hadn't pretty much known for weeks it was going to happen.)
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Oct 9, 2009 16:52:44 GMT -5
I'm sure the whole series will read fine when it's finished, I'm just worried I'll hold a grudge when it is. A lot of people hate season six for being depressing and uneventful. I find it neither of those things, but then I didn't see it dragged out for 20 weeks. Paul, sidebar, your avatar is freaking me out. Lol, that's Evil Ash. Bruce Campbell makes a pretty groovy Deadite.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Oct 9, 2009 20:10:39 GMT -5
This issue was pretty good. I enjoyed reading it. Not a whole lot else to say, because... Overally, I'm caring less and less about Season Eight. I'm not sure why, and it's upsetting me because I used to be one of it's biggest fans. I don't think it's the plot itself, the last few issues (particularly #28) have been perfectly enjoyable, but I find myself stuggling to care about the series in general. The latest issue of Buffy used to be an event, now it's a chore. I think it might be the pacing. S8's been going on for two and a half years now, and it's really dragging it's heels. This happened with Astonishing X-Men. I loved that series when it started, and by the end I couldn't give a shit anymore. I got bored and moved on. Who is Twilight? What's Riley's agenda? Will Warren ever actually do anything to justify his existence? I don't care about the answers to these questions anymore and I feel like a traitor because of it. When I'm reading the issues themselves, I have fun. They're good comics. But I don't give them much thought afterwards anymore. Alternatively, I've really been enjoying the Angel comics lately, even though I think Buffy is technically the better series. Maybe it's because Angel is actually doing something new, and not the same story that's been going on since 2007? Oh, and about the Monroe error... that's pretty shocking. The Warren error was bad writing, but it wasn't as bad as forgetting a character died two issues ago. Jane needs to read her own work, this has happened twice in her arc. If you think that's bad, try being into Inuyasha, a manga series that has been running since 1996(or 7) and just recently finished (and the animated series is only half finished.). It's rediculous. I got tired of that series years ago, so I know how you feel :/ I really enjoyed this issue though. Except for the random Dawn/Xander couplyness and Buffy's indifference towards Bay and Oz's injuries.
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Post by wytchcroft on Oct 10, 2009 17:06:07 GMT -5
first issue in alooonnggggg time that i disliked. lots of goofs and sheesh but they could have compressed this and the following issue into one.
and the weaponizing of buffy - well, interesting for the dark moral roads she's walking but... as with S7 it's real frickin' dull too.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 10, 2009 18:05:49 GMT -5
Just a heads-up, the #29 review is now up on the SlayAlive blog. Click on the bolded text to read. Dead bodies move after death all the time. "Death spasms". I meant the body moving from one place to another. As in either dragging itself away, or being carried away. Monroe's gang was clearly shown skedaddling while he lay bloody on the ground. wenxina - Back to the gun issue, which I do think is very interesting. When Buffy says lines like "These things? Never helpful", I really don't think that you can just take that as purely a literal comment on the exact situation that she's in. For me there's definitely another level in those type of comments and I do see an anti-gun message in the show. On a meta-level, I can see how one would reach that conclusion. But in terms of character analysis, Buffy has never found guns useful. Even now, she still claims that a Slayer doesn't need a gun. Buffy is a traditionalist when it comes to slaying. The best weapon against a vampire is still a wooden stake. When you said that the show always avoided putting guns in the hands of the good guys, I interpreted that to mean that you thought that guns=bad. All I'm arguing is that that's not necessarily true, and it's more of a guns=/=Slayer weapon of choice. S8 has blurred the lines of violence in the Buffyverse and "real-world violence". For one, Slayers are no longer secret. The organization is out there now, and the world is now against them. They make headlines, and vampires are now guests on talk shows. We're currently in the midst of a possible scenario if the real world learned about Slayers. That's not to say that there isn't an anti-gun sentiment. In fact, Buffy's insistence on a "no guns for Slayers" policy which Simone was against can be used in support of that view. Simone called Buffy obsolete in #23, and I'm hoping that comes back into play in S8. I don't see how there won't be any fallout from the rogue Slayer situation. But as for the "confused message", I don't see how it's confused. As I said, Buffy is still against them. It is a case of real-world violence now; the army isn't fighting Slayers anymore. They're killing regular girls. And the girls are using real-world violence back. Until they unleashed the wrathful goddesses, that is.
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Post by Rebecca on Oct 10, 2009 21:25:41 GMT -5
Dead bodies move after death all the time. "Death spasms". I meant the body moving from one place to another. As in either dragging itself away, or being carried away. Monroe's gang was clearly shown skedaddling while he lay bloody on the ground. True, but they never showed him being buried, which I can only assume that they did. His clan could have dug him up or he himself up after he healed. Yes, he was bloody and unconscious on the ground, that doesn't necessarily mean he's out for the count, at least in my mind. Bay and Oz clearly believed he was dead, which he clearly is not. Something happened off panel.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 10, 2009 23:07:17 GMT -5
True, but they never showed him being buried, which I can only assume that they did. His clan could have dug him up or he himself up after he healed. Yes, he was bloody and unconscious on the ground, that doesn't necessarily mean he's out for the count, at least in my mind. Bay and Oz clearly believed he was dead, which he clearly is not. Something happened off panel. That was my kinda point. If Oz and Bay buried him, which I proposed as a possibility, the sight of a man they thought they had killed appearing in front of them would have generated a more extreme response than simply "Hey, you on our side now?" Even from Oz. And it something did happen off-screen, it really needed to be shown. I'm all for off-the-screen, but certain things need to be shown for context, when speculation can't really answer. As for him not necessarily being dead, it's not that he was bloody that was the problem. Bay clearly said that she regretted doing what she did because it may have made him a martyr. That implies death. That's the point that kills Allie's answer that states that it was a little more gory than necessary. It's not the blood, but Bay's words that nail the fact that Monroe was killed.
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Post by Rebecca on Oct 10, 2009 23:17:01 GMT -5
That was my kinda point. If Oz and Bay buried him, which I proposed as a possibility, the sight of a man they thought they had killed appearing in front of them would have generated a more extreme response than simply "Hey, you on our side now?" Even from Oz. And it something did happen off-screen, it really needed to be shown. I'm all for off-the-screen, but certain things need to be shown for context, when speculation can't really answer. I totally agree. I think it should have been shown as well, though they may have had an issue fitting things in these last couple issues. Don't mistake me, I think they should have shown it too, but it doesn't break it for me. I just kinda fill in the blanks, lol! Bay's words imply that she thought he was dead, not that he was necessarily dead. I see a difference there.
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