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Post by wenxina on Oct 11, 2009 0:07:32 GMT -5
Bay's words imply that she thought he was dead, not that he was necessarily dead. I see a difference there. Goes back to the point that if they thought he was dead, their response would have been more extreme. As I don't agree with the behind-the-scenes treatment, the entire scene reads as sloppy editing to me.
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Post by NotaViking on Oct 11, 2009 17:49:32 GMT -5
wenxina - I've got no problem at all with your character analysis of Buffy, of course that's correct, but I'm talking about the message that the writers are sending out through the show, either intentionally or unintentionally. While Buffy states that slayers don't need guns, isn't she shown to be incorrect, due to the de-powering? Buffy's position and the show's position can be different. That the slayers are using guns to fight their war makes sense in context, but what message does that send out? For me, it's that guns are just tools, neither good nor bad, but useful for ordinary humans to defended themselves with. That's why I think the message is now confused because this differs significantly from the anti-gun position that I believe the show had.
I think it would be possible to give the good guys guns and still retain an anti-gun message, but you'd have to convey it through graphic images from the battle, physiological scars, etc. That's the price for moving from fantasy violence to real world violence. No-one's really bothered about the consequences of fighting zombies with swords, but it should be different if you're gunning down humans.
Going right back to the issue of does the show have an anti-gun message in the first place, I'm not sure what else I can say here. For me, there's enough in the things mentioned previously that I'm convinced that this was a message that the writers were trying to get across. If everyone just sat around discussing, for example, how terrible nuclear weapons are, that would be awful writing. You always need to dig beneath the surface in Buffy, so I'm not sure why you seem to be a bit reluctant to do so in this case.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Oct 11, 2009 19:36:35 GMT -5
Gotta say I find myself a little disappointed with this issue. As the final story in the Retreat arc, I really felt that this issue failed to pack the punch that it should have. I will of course read the issue again later to see if my feelings change, but as of now I am less than impressed with the conclusion of this arc (and seeing as how Espenson is one of my fave Buffy writers, this makes me really sad). For starters, I felt that Jeanty's art was once again rushed in some panels. Dawn was drawn horribly this issue. Xander looked good. Buffy looked good for the most part (except for that one panel where it looked like Jeanty gave her a pig snout. lol). Nothing really funny happened this issue - though the best exchange by far was between Buffy and Xander: BUFFY: I need your big secret weapon. XANDER: Now that's a come on if I ever heard one. When did Dawn learn so much about guns and military weaponry? Although, I guess hanging out with Xander she would be bound to pick up some of the knowledge. Loved the Xander/Dawn kissage in the BG. Buffy is clearly upset about this recent development. Sweet of Andrew to show his concern. I was hoping that the fallout from the recent smoochage would be touched upon, but it's understandable that it didn't considering that they were in the midst of a war. I'm sure all feelings will come out eventually. Bay is probably going to die. Did anyone else think that Buffy was a little harsh in her dealing with Bay and Oz? Yeah, I know she was stressed out and more than a little preoccupied but still...It just seemed like she was being a little insensitive to what Oz was going through.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 11, 2009 20:50:35 GMT -5
You always need to dig beneath the surface in Buffy, so I'm not sure why you seem to be a bit reluctant to do so in this case. Where do you detect such reluctance? That's not to say that there isn't an anti-gun sentiment. In fact, Buffy's insistence on a "no guns for Slayers" policy which Simone was against can be used in support of that view. My reluctance however, is in placing my own personal bias on what the writers intended. You may interpret certain instances to be an anti-gun stance. Me, I don't quite see it that way.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Oct 11, 2009 21:34:54 GMT -5
Gotta stop you right there. This isn't the last comic of the Retreat story arc, that would be #30.
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Post by NotaViking on Oct 11, 2009 21:38:15 GMT -5
buffyfan21 - Perhaps some of your disappointment will be eased by the fact that this wasn't the last comic in the arc - it's a five-issue arc, so one more to go. (couple of minutes late from being useful, but never mind ;)
wenxina - I'm keeping my personal bias out of the conversation too - it's not as if I actually think that the "good guys" in the real world shouldn't use guns. That really wouldn't work. I still don't know why you think there isn't an anti-gun message in Buffy's dialogue, good guys not being given guns and the examples of the bad guys with guns, specifically because when you discuss it, you go back to the surface layer of Buffy choosing stakes over guns. That's the reluctance I'm talking about. If you simply don't think there is any underlying message in the show about guns, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 11, 2009 22:58:42 GMT -5
wenxina - I'm keeping my personal bias out of the conversation too - it's not as if I actually think that the "good guys" in the real world shouldn't use guns. That really wouldn't work. I still don't know why you think there isn't an anti-gun message in Buffy's dialogue, good guys not being given guns and the examples of the bad guys with guns, specifically because when you discuss it, you go back to the surface layer of Buffy choosing stakes over guns. That's the reluctance I'm talking about. If you simply don't think there is any underlying message in the show about guns, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think that there's necessarily an anti-gun statement because the only one who has ever spoken out about guns is Buffy. And in light of her most recent "A Slayer doesn't need a gun" comment, I'd argue that it's less about guns being bad than a Slayer usually not relying on it. In S6, during which she said "These things? Never helpful", her only gun encounters were with Darla, the assassin policewoman in "What's My Line Again?", the police officers that tried to arrest her in "Becoming, Pt. 1" and "Bad Girls" (I think that was the "Want. Take. Have" ep), and Jonathan trying to off himself in "Earshot". And a failed electric pulse rifle in S4, a clear example as to how a Slayer's traditional weapons and intuition beat out guns at any rate. And I guess Adam's gattling gun. Only three of these encounters were with villains, per se. Thus, I find it hard to conclude that guns were only given to the bad guys and that the show had an anti-gun bias. A gun is merely a weapon, one that a Slayer has limited use of. Bullets barely slow vampires down most of the time anyway... Angel in "City Of" as an example. Bullets may work against demons, but so do crossbow bolts then. And seeing as crossbow bolts work on vampires too, crossbow bolts win over bullets. And so... "never helpful" I took as less of a poster child for the anti-gun front, and more of a commentary of Buffy's previous experience. So yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Oct 11, 2009 23:08:16 GMT -5
Gotta stop you right there. This isn't the last comic of the Retreat story arc, that would be #30. Oops, my bad. For some reason I thought this was issue #30 In that case, I guess some of my prior criticisms of the issue were unfair. Still though, this one did not amaze me for some reason...
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Oct 12, 2009 1:42:50 GMT -5
I felt that way about #27, and judging from the response, I suspect I'll be saying the same for #29 if/when I ever get it in. (grr postage!)
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Post by VampSlayer on Oct 12, 2009 19:08:26 GMT -5
I loved this issue... Until the last few pages.
The gods that came up looked super child-ish, IMO. The Dawn/Xander stuff made me say 'Ew' everytime I saw them together.
I'd give it a 7/10. The last bit of the issue seemed odd to me.
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Post by NightlySorrow on Oct 12, 2009 19:34:24 GMT -5
This is my least favorate issue of the Retreat arc so far. The war feels comical, which isn't helped by some of the art and faceless characters in the background, and I'm not feeling the tension or the threat of the matter. It's unusual.
On the final page, I hope that isn't their way of winning the war. It's too easy and once again an out of no where save that magically fixes the problem. Hope I'm wrong.
Monroe isn't very consistent. He's dead, he's alive, he's an enemy, he's on Oz's side. All over the place. I think issue 30 will deliver.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 12, 2009 19:46:13 GMT -5
On the final page, I hope that isn't their way of winning the war. It's too easy and once again an out of no where save that magically fixes the problem. Hope I'm wrong. Read the solicitations for #31.
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Post by NightlySorrow on Oct 12, 2009 20:22:06 GMT -5
Wenxina, I read the description for issue 31 a week ago and forgot the details, read it again just now and wow, that's almost too much info for an issue that's still four months away. But I'm happy it's not going to play out so simply.
Hope Bay survives, Joss can't kill off another character so quickly, she was just introduced. And the downfall of another relationship? No thank you. I think the next issue will give fans a lot to talk about, and I'm especially intrigued after reading Whedon's interview in Wizard Magazine.
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shankarma
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Post by shankarma on Oct 12, 2009 20:47:02 GMT -5
Wenxina, I read the description for issue 31 a week ago and forgot the details, read it again just now and wow, that's almost too much info for an issue that's still four months away. But I'm happy it's not going to play out so simply. Hope Bay survives, Joss can't kill off another character so quickly, she was just introduced. And the downfall of another relationship? No thank you. I think the next issue will give fans a lot to talk about, and I'm especially intrigued after reading Whedon's interview in Wizard Magazine. Do you have a link?
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Oct 12, 2009 20:47:34 GMT -5
Interesting review from the guy who used to run X-Axis (X-Men review blog): I kind of agree with his point about the villains. The Twilight Group must be the dullest, most underdeveloped Big Bads Buffy has ever had. We've got a faceless leader whose MO is some vague, hypocritical desire to end magic. And in the background we've got a motely bunch of randomers from the TV show, who have no reason for being there other than "Oh look, it's that guy from the TV show". I used to tell people who complained about Twilight's secret identity to shut up and be patient. But 3/4s into the season, this is pitiful. What the hell is going on?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 12, 2009 22:25:52 GMT -5
I used to tell people who complained about Twilight's secret identity to shut up and be patient. But 3/4s into the season, this is pitiful. What the hell is going on? Shut up and be patient. (Seriously, you had to see that one coming. ) I'm finding plenty about this season to be interested in besides Twilight's identity. I kind of wish they'd just revealed it from the start, because now people are acting like the whole success of the season depends on this reveal knocking us out of our chairs. But it's not going to. We've been over this with a fine-tooth comb for nearly 3 years now. It's either going to be: a) one of the usual suspects, in which case it will be seen as predictable and a let-down; b) something really contrived and unlikely, in which case it will be seen as gimmicky and lame; c) something that really will knock us out of our chairs, in which case Joss's legacy as a storytelling genius will be confirmed. Twilight's identity is just a sideshow. I'm far more interested in what happens to Buffy, and Willow, and Xander... does magic get banished? What happens to the Slayers and Willow and Buffy then? Who lives and who dies? Will Willow have to live out the future we saw in ToYL? What about Xander and Dawn? Buffy and Satsu? Willow and Kennedy and Saga Vasuki? Joss could have found a lot of other things to do with his time than plot and produce and co-write this comic book series. I don't think he'd waste his time if he was planning to limp across the finish line. I'm still as enthusiastic for this series as I was on day one. It's already been worth the trip.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 12, 2009 22:39:42 GMT -5
Joss could have found a lot of other things to do with his time than plot and produce and co-write this comic book series. I don't think he'd waste his time if he was planning to limp across the finish line. I'm still as enthusiastic for this series as I was on day one. It's already been worth the trip. This. I still look forward to Buffy Wednesdays the way I did back when I started. Also, despite the general consensus that Joss' AXM run lost steam due to delays and his decompressed story-telling style, I actually found it superior to the other Marvel junk. His finish was remarkable, and he pretty much ended his run with a bang (or lack thereof... Kitty Pryde's heroic "The Gift" moment). Twilight's identity isn't even something I think about all that much. Never did, probably won't until I see the mask come off. Was more interested in the other little tidbits scattered about and trying to see how it would all come together. Just hoping for less loose ends than S7. Right now, we have the Prince, the betrayal of the closest and most unexpected, the mole, Giles' meeting with the demons in "TLWH", the Scythe plot point was never really resolved (i.e. was it just a ruse to get Buffy to NYC so that she could be zapped into the future?)... there are a lot of questions left to answer, besides Twilight's identity.
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Post by NightlySorrow on Oct 12, 2009 22:54:24 GMT -5
I'm still trying to accept the concept that the public has embraced vampires and hates slayers. Maybe if they fleshed it out and explained it I could understand, but I'm not expecting that to happen at this point. It's a stretch and kind of bothers me.
I cannot see our society responding to vampires favorably. I'd be terrified. I think it's a huge deal to out vampires and change the entire world, but we don't get a real inside view of it. All we're told is vamps in, slayers out. I personally need more, and I understand there's only so much room to tell a story in a comic book, but realistically much of Predators and Prey wasn't important and they could have expanded on it and told it then.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 12, 2009 23:06:08 GMT -5
The popular vampires storyline bothers me too, but as I re-watch the TV series I'm noticing a lot of things that... if we'd had a month between each episode to think and talk about it... would have raised similar concerns. I mean, Sunnydale High posts an annual body count that makes Columbine look like Sesame Street. It should be on the front page of every newspaper in the country. But it's not.
There are drawbacks to switching from the TV to comics format, unfortunately, and one of those is that we are asked to suspend our disbelief for months at a time rather than for 44 minutes.
That's just the way it goes. Magic is real, demons walk the earth, vampires are popular now. Just gotta move on.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Oct 12, 2009 23:16:59 GMT -5
I used to tell people who complained about Twilight's secret identity to shut up and be patient. But 3/4s into the season, this is pitiful. What the hell is going on? Shut up and be patient. (Seriously, you had to see that one coming. ) I'm finding plenty about this season to be interested in besides Twilight's identity. I kind of wish they'd just revealed it from the start, because now people are acting like the whole success of the season depends on this reveal knocking us out of our chairs. But it's not going to. We've been over this with a fine-tooth comb for nearly 3 years now. It's either going to be: a) one of the usual suspects, in which case it will be seen as predictable and a let-down; b) something really contrived and unlikely, in which case it will be seen as gimmicky and lame; c) something that really will knock us out of our chairs, in which case Joss's legacy as a storytelling genius will be confirmed. Twilight's identity is just a sideshow. I'm far more interested in what happens to Buffy, and Willow, and Xander... does magic get banished? What happens to the Slayers and Willow and Buffy then? Who lives and who dies? Will Willow have to live out the future we saw in ToYL? What about Xander and Dawn? Buffy and Satsu? Willow and Kennedy and Saga Vasuki? Joss could have found a lot of other things to do with his time than plot and produce and co-write this comic book series. I don't think he'd waste his time if he was planning to limp across the finish line. I'm still as enthusiastic for this series as I was on day one. It's already been worth the trip. I was being patient but it took too long. Twilight's identity is a sideshow, I agree, but we don't know anything about him or his mission, which is a problem. Why should I care about him? He's not even superficially entertaining like Glory or the Trio. The only thing Twilight has going for him is the mystery of his identity and that went stale a long time ago. Currently, he's a one-dimensional character and I'm starting to really hate him. As for what happens to the main characters... frankly they're getting a bit stale as well. Bedhopping aside, I have no idea what Buffy and Xander's arcs are actually supposed to be about. Willow has some interesting stuff going on, we just don't know what it is. Dawn was a visual gag for half the season, Faith and Giles are extras. I've honestly never been so disconnected from characters who used to feel like my best friends. We got some good characterisation last issue, but no satisying follow-up. The writing and plotting has felt very lazy recently. The ludicrous "everybody loves vampires for no logical reason" story. Continual "oh, we'll fix it in the TPB" continuity errors. Several characters have completely fallen by the wayside (whatever happened to Robin Wood?). Andrew, you talk about Joss spending his precious time on this book, but it doesn't feel like there's a whole lot of effort going into it. I loved this series when it first started but my enthusiasm has definitely waned since "Predators & Prey". I'm just reading it out of loyalty, and the hope that it'll all pull itself together in spectacular Joss Whedon style. Also, despite the general consensus that Joss' AXM run lost steam due to delays and his decompressed story-telling style, I actually found it superior to the other Marvel junk. His finish was remarkable, and he pretty much ended his run with a bang (or lack thereof... Kitty Pryde's heroic "The Gift" moment). Sorry, but Messiah Complex wiped the floor with Astonishing X-Men. The writing may not have been as polished but at least it was relevant. What's more interesting, the possible extinction of the mutant race or some random aliens on some random planet? And Kitty's supposed "The Gift" moment had been spoiled by the other books months in advance because Joss is incapable of releasing an issue on time. Astonishing was good but not worth the wait. In Marvel, you've got to be able to keep up with the other books in order to stay relevant and Joss refused to do that. He stuck his nose up, refused to acknowledge the other titles, and was left in the dust as the X-franchise moved on without him. Sad but true. God, I'm a whiny little bitch tonight, huh? Must be my time of the month.
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